And yes, I'm being sarcastic since the division between freedom and totalitarianism is getting blurred here in America by the ultra-left-wing liberals.

Who might they be, and where and what power do they have. Be specific. And please don't try perpetrating myths and generalities like the so called "liberal media."

Replacing capitalism with socialism is but one of the many things on their agenda (sounds like the Soviet Union, doesn't it?).

Must be the voices in your head.

Oh, BTW, this is primarily the religious thread in case you hadn't noticed. I was directly commenting on religion and politics. WTF does your response have to do with that. Kindly take your robo-conservatism to the political thread. You're in danger of losing it.

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Testy in here isn't it. And I thought religion was about the way you treated people; even enemies: commies fundys and ordinaries. Peace Les

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Oh, BTW, this is primarily the religious thread in case you hadn't noticed. I was directly commenting on religion and politics. WTF does your response have to do with that. Kindly take your robo-conservatism to the political thread. You're in danger of losing it.

I think that he was reacting to the seperation of church and state issue but was unclear about how it related to this thread. Government imposition of atheism (as in, "We must protect our children's tender ears from anything that conflicts with the sacred teachings of the Prophet Darwin.") is just as big a perversion of the US Consitition as the imposition of any other specific belief (such as, "God said 'Let there be light' 6000 years ago, and any claim to the contrary is the work of the Devil.").

Mind you, people in the middle 98% of the US political spectrum don't have a problem with presenting competing views on "why we are here" although agreement over when children are mature enough to appreciate the arguments is another matter entirely.

Belief in something is important to many, many people. Like any 'good thing,' too much of it is bad for you. If your plans in life are to be professional clergy (I include the "there cannot be a God" scientists here), dive right in and massage all the permutations of your faith's writings. For the laity (including most atheists and secular progressives) that have to actually live alongside people of differing faiths, get a life and accept that not everyone sees the world as you do.

The best recent example of going overboard is this week's episode of Trading Spouses. I didn't see this episode except for the very end when my wife called me into the room to watch one of the traded wives melt down. From what I've gathered, she's a devout Catholic who had to live a week in a Wiccan's (or some other pagan's) home. My understanding of evangelical Christianity is that she might be called upon to "show the way" to her version of Truth, but it is the other person's responsibility to accept it or not. She was having a psychotic episode because a "witch" had been in her home while she was away.

If she truly thought that the home had somehow been cursed, there are rituals within Christianity to cleanse the area... this woman was demonstrating a version of bigotry that I thought had been socially unacceptable in the US for decades. In her defense, people are given a certain amount of latitude to limit what they want to transpire within their homes, but this kind of outburst can only come from someone whose religion has taken over every facet of her life.

I never saw any footage of the "witch," but the facial expressions of the children watching their mother explode tell me that the other mother had been a reasonable person who had not flaunted her religion in their faces.

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

Normally I'm very laissez-faire, within limits until the Jehovah Witnesses knock on my door. But when I see that crap that Pat Robertson and his fellow travelers spue, that is another matter. The last time he was in the news was a month ago, when he announced that a certain democractically elected South American president should be assasinated. I have no problem with people who believe in their faith, until they start to use it to control others.


This is one dangerous a**hole. CNN link as well.

Instead of focusing on me, why not focus on Mr. Robertson and the bile he spues.
But then again, maybe he is your champion, if so, I sure we'd like to listen.

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TV evangelist warns disaster may hit town

ASSOCIATED PRESS

November 12, 2005

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. - Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson has warned residents of a rural Pennsylvania town that disaster may strike there because they "voted God out of your city" by ousting school board members who favored teaching intelligent design.

All eight Dover, Pa., school board members up for re-election were defeated Tuesday after trying to introduce "intelligent design" – the belief that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power – as an alternative to the theory of evolution.

"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God. You just rejected him from your city," Robertson said Thursday on his "700 Club" television program.

Eight families had sued the district, claiming that the policy violates the constitutional separation of church and state. The federal trial concluded days before Tuesday's election, but no ruling has been issued.

Later Thursday, Robertson issued a statement saying he was trying to point out that "our spiritual actions have consequences."

"God is tolerant and loving, but we can't keep sticking our finger in his eye forever," Robertson said. "If they have future problems in Dover, I recommend they call on Charles Darwin. Maybe he can help them."

Robertson made headlines this summer after a broadcast in which he called for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

In October 2003, he suggested that the State Department be blown up with a nuclear device.

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me@rescam.org

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"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

I am a Christian, and I am pretty sure that God is not to worried about Pat's reputation. I wonder how much harm he does for the cause of God's love for the world?
Jim

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Who might they be, and where and what power do they have. Be specific.

Almost exactly half of the policians in federal gov't and up until recently they maintained contol of the federal gov't for 40 years. The overwhelming majority of politicians in larger urban areas, as demonstrated in a county by county red/blue map.

And they have a LOT of power. The design the bureaucracies and regulations, the write laws, they influence judge selection at all levels, et cetera. They created the abortion of the "commerce clause" that results in nearly any law you might wish. The Education and Energy Depts, and on and on and on and on. They influence tax code, 10K pages of Barbra Streisand.

And please don't try perpetrating myths and generalities like the so called "liberal media."

The media is what it is. The individual members of large news media outlets, like the NYT, the Chicago Trib, CNN, the big networks, especially the Big Three, et cetera, vote, 90% and above for liberal politicians. If there is a slant, it certainly isn't towards the Ann Coulter side of the spectrum. While they may not be as skeptical of Dubya et al as you might wish, they must for the most part present the picture of unbiased journalism. Editorializing a la Peter Arnett is generally discouraged. Overt bias is mostly not allowed.

Must be the voices in your head.

Ah. Nice tone to set.

Oh, BTW, this is primarily the religious thread in case you hadn't noticed. I was directly commenting on religion and politics. WTF does your response have to do with that.

When you said "And yes, I'm being sarcastic since the division between state and religion is getting blurred here in America by the ultra right wing conservatives.... and the rest of it, you presented that position as if it is somehow worse when Dubya and the religious right does it, when, in reality, that is exactly what the left does as well: they take what they believe or have faith in (i.e. dear god we'll all die without welfare or the Dept. of Education) and use gov't force to make us eat it.

Kindly take your robo-conservatism to the political thread. You're in danger of losing it.

I have no idea what this means, what is robo-conservatism? Danger of losing what?

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Voters reject return of cross to city seal

Associated Press

November 14, 2005

REDLANDS - Voters in this town known as the City of Churches rejected a ballot measure calling for a cross to be restored to the city seal. Fifty-nine percent of voters cast ballots against Measure Q on Tuesday. City officials decided to delete the religious symbol after the American Civil Liberties Union threatened a costly lawsuit last year. They estimated the litigation could cost more than $500,000.

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me@rescam.org

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Some pretty nasty stuff in this tread-I guess I now have an insight asto why the religious right are so strong headed in the States; there doesn't seem to be much room for polite discourse; even an agreement to disagree.

I am a clergy person-not a fundamentalist, quite interested in seti and in science. Somewhere along the way I have learned, slowly, far to slowly I know, that we have to respect each other and each others views. Mocking people repeatedly isn't at all helpful. This tread proports to be about religion. I would suggest that you change the name to anti-religion; this would perhaps be a little more descriptive asto the trust of the dialogue. I don't like Mr Robertson either and am appauled that he gets so much air time; and he seems be protrayed as representative of what religion is. He is a disturbing individual that needs some help, that is true. But I have to say this cafe is part of the problems also. Peace Les

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The Reverend Joseph Chambers, a Pentecostal minister from Charlotte, North Carolina, has decided that two beloved American figures are poster boys for depravity. We're speaking, of course, of Bert and Ernie.

"They're two grown men sharing a house -- and a bedroom!" bellows Chambers, who has a radio ministry that broadcasts in four Southern states. "They share clothes. They eat and cook together. They vacation together and have effeminate characteristics. In one show Bert teaches Ernie how to sew. In another they tend plants together. If this isn't meant to represent a homosexual union, I can't imagine what it's supposed to represent."

Chambers is also the author of "Barney: The Purple Messiah" -- a tract that denounces the world's most insipid dinosaur as a tool of Satan and homosexuals. It's not just that Barney is purple (a clear sign of deviant sexuality); Chambers sees a greater threat: "Barney is much more than just a fun creature of kids' imaginations. He is a politically correct teacher of everything on the liberal left's agenda, from New Age evolution to radical ecology.

"To many children Barney has become a guru of sorts. He teaches transcendental thought and mystical ideas. Nothing comes through Barney's teachings more clearly than the New Age idea of using our minds to create miracles. No one should deny that positive or negative thinking can tremendously affect our lives. But such powers are clearly physical and end with the normal experiences we enjoy. God alone is supernatural."

And here's the heavy stuff: "The idea of a seance is at the forefront of almost every "Barney" program. On one show Mother Goose talks to the children from one of her books. Led by Barney, the children commune with Mother Goose and conduct a seance to bring her to them. As they sing and dance their little ditty she -- poof! -- appears in their presence. The Bible calls that necromancy and says a person who participates in such behavior is an abomination unto the Lord. This kind of occult activity fills the "Barney" material. Conjuring someone up is certainly not kids' play."

It would be funny if it weren't so fashionable among the religious tight to attack PBS -- home of Bert, Ernie and Barney -- for sponsoring "anti-Christian" programming. They call it the culture war -- Saturday morning cartoons versus Sunday morning sermons. Who will win the souls of our children? In Chambers' view, everything that happens outside of church is the work of Satan -- including the antics of big puppets.

Chambers' most recent target is "The Lion King," which he denounces as "the newest idolatry and witchcraft being pawned off on the children of America." Among other things, Chambers says, the animated movie promotes voodoo, necromancy (see Barney), astrology and ESP. Our favorite religious dingbat, the Reverend Donald Wildmon, has joined the battle against Disney, claiming that two stars of "The Lion King" -- Timon the meerkat and Pumbaa the warthog - are "the first homosexual Disney characters ever to come to the screen."

Wildmon latched on to an interview with Ernie Sabella and Nathan Lane (the actors who provided voices for the cartoon characters) that ran in the New York Times. "Timon is a feisty little cheerful fellow," Lane says. "He and Pumbaa seem to have a very nice arrangement -- though I couldn't say what the extent of their relationship is."

Sabella laughingly dismisses the suggestion, saying, "I know what Nathan says about them -- these are the first homosexual Disney characters ever to come to the screen. You can call Timon a gay character. Just don't say he reminds you of Jackie Gleason."

And then there's the American Life League, a Virginia-based anti-abortion group. The group claims that clouds in "The Lion King" form the word sex over Simba's head, that the minister in "The Little Mermaid" has a hard-on and that a voice on the soundtrack of "Aladdin" urges, "Good teenagers, take off your clothes."

Finding Satan's hand in the world of entertainment is almost as old as religion. The Roman philosopher Tertullian condemned the "pleasures of the spectacle" -- exhorting his fellow Christians to avoid wrestling, chariot racing, the circus, the theater and the show of gladiators. But our modern crusaders are fixated on art forms that are far less adult. That Chambers and Wildmon find deviance lurking behind a child's delight is not surprising. Their view of sexuality is a cartoon. We hear that Chambers next target will be the incredibly decadent and morally mischievous Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers. When will the ridiculous right grow up?

Timmy, say it ain't true! Is our beloved Captain gay?

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