1984 is already here!!

"I dont see it as big brother or infringing civil liberties at all."

by the time you notice it will be too late...LOL

Whoa!!! The Enigmatic one has decided to post on the Seti forums????

1984 is already here!!

"I dont see it as big brother or infringing civil liberties at all."

'Bout time you wnder your way back in here...lol

Got a link for the CFUN site? Maybe the British and european people in here can use that one?

They can. The Canadian Stream isn't limited . It seems to work internationally.

I already put the link up for it. It's the one under the KFI link. :-)

That's why I say it's for folks outside the US.

Maybe I should try actually reading your posts.
edit--I just noticed they replay much of the shows at reasonable hours and also offer the Ian Punnet coast to coast show which I have not heard. i actually was on the Ian Punnett show once when he had a different but maor market current events show. This was back in 1996.

CFUN carries the early weekend show?? I didn't know that.

And yes. Paying attention to what I say occasionally has some value...LMAO

To be correct one of them is older, the other one is completely new. Unfortunately the reproduction is not as good as the original that I have here.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7381754370244445712

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1360078283177272448

Significant changes in weather conditions are definitely NOT a new phenomenon.

(Back after a weekend away) I agree. However, what is the extent to which humankind is contributing? Also what can be done to ameliorate the effects? (Floods, storms, increased rate of bushfires, droughts)

[quote]Frankly, a few heat waves, cool periods and change in bird activities do not (to me) constitute scientific reasons for climate change. Earth climatic systems are simply too complex and well frankly man has been studying them for an extremely short time (relative to the life of earth and its cycles). Unfortunately we also have pitifully short lifespans which IMO adds to the problem.

One of the most susceptible environments is Australia. I have lived here 19 years. When I first arrived, the part of Queensland had a definite wet and dry season. They haven't had a wet season worth the name in 5 years, and most years, it has actually been non-existent, since 1991. That's not a few heat waves. It's a definite pattern.

Friends in Britain tell me they have gone more than a decade without snowfall over Winter. Again, that's no longer just a few heatwaves.

Again, a few peoples observations of change, in something that is KNOWN to change does not constitute science.

The fact is, that volcanic eruptions emit copious amounts of green house gas, along with decaying plants and the existence of animals. The point i am making is that the volume of emissions by man are trivial in comparison to the that of other systems.

The Earth has developed mechanisms over billions of years that deal with the effects of decaying plant matter and other, natural, sources of greenhouse gases. These are plant life and bacteriological in the main. Human activities include the changing of environments, removing the habitat of plants, and often of bacteria that would help the planet cope in it's usual fashion. In combination with various emissions, we are exacerbating the situation.

If you examine climatic data during the turn of the 20th century, the temperates was already going up 'RAPIDLY' (yet there was NO industry or cars! Does this seem ODD?). Furthermore the data provided in the attached video illustrates a reverse link between CO2 and temperature whereby temperature increased FIRST and THEN CO2 concentrations. This seems to indicate the possibility of SOLAR cycles (sun spot activity, expansion and contraction of the sun etc).

There certainly WAS industry! The industrial revolution occurred over a period of a couple of centuries, towards the end of which, (The turn of the 20th Century) factories were usually steam-powered, meaning coal burning. During the late 19th Century, the effect of this was so bad, the area around Birmingham was given the name "The Black Country", a name which remains today. The black was due to layers of soot.

The 20th Century saw an unprecendented population growth all over the world, resulting in wholesale removal of forests to make room for ever more people. As population grows, so does industrial output. Hence the increase in global warming throughout that Century.

As temperatures cool, plant life suffers. Hence, if ambient temperature reduces significantly, we get a reduction in plant life, resulting in a rise in CO2. As part of a "dynamic equilibrium", this would then cause a rise in temperature, allowing plant life to re-establish in places where it had been lost. (CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere have never been constant: they fluctuate, as do many things in nature)

Well, the documentary is 1 hour 20 minutes, so i would appreciate if you watch the other 70 minutes.

I'll definitely give it a go. The reason I only managed to get 10 minutes viewing in was the video download just kept stopping. I suspect the server was receiving too many hits. I finally had to go and do assignments.

The issue i see with climate change is that the average person is being nothing but unscientific, have just put the blinders on and simply listen to what the main stream media says unquestioningly.

I was concerned about what I was seeing happen to the environment over 30 years ago. To be watching the events unfolding as I had read about 40 years ago, while at Primary school, reminds me of the naysayers that pooh-poohed the doomsayers back then. The message was out thewre before changes started to occur.

Lets face it, climate change is now an industry, with lots of vested interests. How can there not be significant bias and ignorance to scientific fact. Although i agree that political process has a part to play, surely the science should be mostly complete and accurate first? (i think we know how scientific politicians are).

As mentioned in my earlier posts, the United Nations commissioned a survey into climate change. Their conclusion was that human activities ARE responsible for climate change. Due to inherent inertia, the effects will continue to get worse before they get better, even IF action is taken NOW. The British government had it's own independent report, the Stark report, which came to much the same conclusions.

In this documentary they do discuss research funding problems for anything but support for current climate change theory.

I'd certainly like to see the results of a decent scientific investigation of the variability of our sun. Sunspots are only one of many phenomena that are known to affect climate here. Again, as I mentioned in my first post on this subject, Sol (our sun) has a cycle of 76 years, which sees it alternately cool and heat. Is Sol now at it's hottest? Is this combining with the 11 year sunspot cycle to produce our present decade-long drought here in Australia? Is there also an effect caused by eccentricities in Earth's orbit?

Anyway, take a peek at the full doc and tell me what you think.

Will do!

I'm rather up to my neck with studies at the moment, but I'm sure the vid will stay where it is until the panic is over. Although I have polar views to yours, I'm still interested in the other side of the "argument".

1) I'll have a look for some info on greenhouse gases, to see if I can find comparative data on the "strength" of each. I'm pretty busy with studies, atm, but I'll try to find them in the next week or so. (Watch this space!)

2) During a period of severe smog I remember, in Berlin, during the 1980's, analysis showed it was composed of 10% car emissions, 25% emissions from gas- and oil-fired central heating, and the rest was from "industrial" sources. The effect was like walking through dense smoke, which lasted for days. (About a week, if memory serves me right) Stand back from, and a little higher than, any of the world's cities, and you can see a photochemical haze. This is due to hydrocarbons, which are greenhouse gases too. I also said there are natural processes causing warming and cooling, but that the Earth has developed mechanisms to cope. The problem, IMHO, is that human actions are [u]exacerbating[/] the situation, by adding quantities that natural processes cannot keep pace with. If the Earth is undergoing a warming phase (natural or otherwise) our own actions are making it worse. By the way, large-scale volcanic eruptions cause cooling, due to the dust they emit. Their effect is usually short-lived, and natural processes absorb the emissions.

4) I managed to download and watch the first 10 minutes of the documentary... I'll try again later. I don't want to be totally unscientific, so I must listen to the opposing point of view. However, there was no scientific evidence offered in what I have seen so far. Only claims and insinuations, including a conspiracy theory that someone is trying to prevent development in Africa. (IMHO The latter could have a large kernel of truth!) By the way, does anyone know which companies the people in the documentary are affiliated with? In my experience, people usually choose their political stance alongside those that pay best. Comments I caught in the part of the video I saw mentioned global warming was a political process. Of course it is! Only through a political process can the necessary laws be enacted to change things!

---SNIP--

There are many more ways of helping our environment. One of the best I can think of is making it expensively illegal to leave lights on in unoccupied offices and other commercial premises, as presently happens.

Any comments, people?

As mentioned by MACGIRL, take an hour out of your hectic schedule and take a look at the below video for a position on global warming that is based on a theory with matching evidence/data rather than 'just a theory'.

According to a group of scientists brought together by documentary-maker Martin Durkin, if the planet is heating up, it isn't your fault and there's nothing you can do about it.

We've almost begun to take it for granted that climate change is a man-made phenomenon. But just as the environmental lobby think they've got our attention, a group of naysayers have emerged to slay the whole premise of global warming.

The Great Global Warming Swindle

Hi Enigma

As I said in my post: there are outside, natural influences that MAY have an effect on global climate. As I mentioned, the Earth has developed mechanisms to counter such influences, except in the most extreme of circumstances.

Global warming and cooling have occurred many times in the past. (Ice ages, etc) This is not in doubt.

Atmospheric carbon dioxide levels are known to be rising. These levels have been measured. This is, then, a known fact. Excess carbon dioxide results in faster growth in vegetation. Again, a known fact. This allows nature to mop up the excess. However, the annual removal of millions of hectares of vegetation to make room for carbon dioxide exhaling machinery interferes with this natural process, and it is no longer able to keep pace.

Since man-created machines are pumping carbon dioxide and other gases into the atmosphere that are of un-natural origin and concentration, it is clear that human activity is at least exacerbating the present situation. Again, this is fact, NOT theory, as presented recently by the International Commission on climate change in Geneva, and the Stark report (apt name) in Britain. Both of these reports presented facts, not theories. It is up to us to reduce that contribution to global climate change.

I agree with you on one point... the naysayers. Every time we are told something is good (or bad) an opposing point of view surfaces. There have been so-called scientific reports telling us smoking is not harmful to our health.

Personally, I do not agree with everything the "green" lobby says, but climate change IS a reality. Friends of mine in the UK tell me they had birds nesting in late November, and bees active, with flowers in full bloom. Where I presently live (Hunter Valley, Australia) is usually cool and dry at this time of year, yet it is now hot and humid, more like the expected weather 1,000 kms North of us, in the sub-tropics. In that region, they are experiencing the kind of weather found in what is known as the dry tropics. It's turned into a desert.

I have watched clouds roll in off the sea on Queensland's Gold Coast, only to see them evaporate as they are heated by the reflected heat from concrete and tarmac, where a few years ago, the forests would have encouraged rain. That to me is hard evidence that runaway development has ruined the local climate.

According to a group of scientists brought together by documentary-maker Martin Durkin, if the planet is heating up, it isn't your fault and there's nothing you can do about it.

Sit on your hands? Wash them, even?
Man is often described as the only animal capable of manipulating his/her own environment. Throwing your hands in the air and saying: "It isn't my fault." and: "There's nothing that can be done about it." is condemning your children to a desolate future. It is also a cop-out of unforgivable proportions. There is plenty that can be done, IMHO.

Oh, by the way, I know my post uses pretty strong terms, but please don't take it personally. Opposing points of view are healthy, IMHO, and I welcome your input. After all, I asked for it!! :)

---SNIP--

There are many more ways of helping our environment. One of the best I can think of is making it expensively illegal to leave lights on in unoccupied offices and other commercial premises, as presently happens.

Any comments, people?

KM, what's with the new avatar? It looks more like a fallen angel than a reaper. Of course, we all know how much you want an angel right now (fallen or not), so maybe that explains it.

She represents the Calm amidst the Chaos that is my life right now....* sigh *

I just felt like changing it up for a bit, in all honesty...lol

Besides, I think the pic is cool. :-)

Nice Avatar mate.... a change is as good as a holiday i say.

Now what are all these gripes from TL? Surely he can just 'stop time' get all the crap out of the way then fire it up again? Sheesh....

Thanks.

And...Yeah....what the hell??? I thought that's what he had K-9 and the Tardis for????

Precisely.

So TL, whats the deal? Is the tardis at the shop or what? 10,000 hour/light year service or something...

Maybe the Tardis has decided to start giving him problems like his car....lol

Is the Tardis manufactured by TimeWarner? That would explain a lot.

Moonwalk tapes missing

Won't the conspiracy fans have a field day with that.

They already have.....lol

That story has been out for a while now.

Just what the world needed. More fuel for the " We didn't land on the Moon!!! " folks.

KM, what's with the new avatar? It looks more like a fallen angel than a reaper. Of course, we all know how much you want an angel right now (fallen or not), so maybe that explains it.

She represents the Calm amidst the Chaos that is my life right now....* sigh *

I just felt like changing it up for a bit, in all honesty...lol

Besides, I think the pic is cool. :-)

Nice Avatar mate.... a change is as good as a holiday i say.

Now what are all these gripes from TL? Surely he can just 'stop time' get all the crap out of the way then fire it up again? Sheesh....

Thanks.

And...Yeah....what the hell??? I thought that's what he had K-9 and the Tardis for????

KM, what's with the new avatar? It looks more like a fallen angel than a reaper. Of course, we all know how much you want an angel right now (fallen or not), so maybe that explains it.

She represents the Calm amidst the Chaos that is my life right now....* sigh *

I just felt like changing it up for a bit, in all honesty...lol

Besides, I think the pic is cool. :-)

No matter what fancy terminology you use, if it wasn't 'planned' then it was an 'accident'...

Not true. Life is no accident. Intelligent life is no accident. Our universe is hospitable to life. The laws of the universe permit matter to assemble itself in a self aware form. Its so easy to make simple amino acids. Just get some hydrogen and methane and bombard it with radiation or electricity (lightning) and within a few hours you simple organic molecules. It was no accident but not in the way you are thinking. "We are not central to the purpose of the cosmos." - Carl Sagan

That must be it, They are loud, they smell bad, they scratch their ...ummm bits. extremely unpleasant. but interesting i suppose.

Hey Red Atomic (you can defect) and Lester, how come you guys haven't joined Calm Chaos??

You guys would fit right in.... (that IS a compliment... just in case you weren't sure).

Thanks for the offer.

I find it very interesting that it costs the project roughly $630+/day in Operations (including Internet Connectivity) alone to keep this board open for us to post on.

Please make a donation to the project to cover those current expenses.

Thank you.

Everyone has a voice.

I dont.....

That's because you are just the Co Founder and everyone made me the defacto boss while you were away....lmao

* still trying to figure out how that happened *

Wrong place, wrong time i guess LOL.... cmon mate, you love it LOL... :-) co-founder does provide limited privileges though..... (such as risk-free heckling of the other co-founder lol).

[walks in door Enigma opened]
There's no risking in heckling KM, co-founder or not. He takes it as well as he dishes it out. Most of it he doesn't really understand.

[exits door Enigma opened and closes it behind himself]

I think we should invade Tasmania..