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SciManStev Send message Joined: 20 Jun 99 Posts: 6653 Credit: 121,090,076 RAC: 0 |
I have found that any Ideology, whether religious, political, or business related can be a trap. Solutions can many times be derived from historical success, regardless of which Ideology spawned them. In this case, a religious Ideology is strengthened by lack of stability, whether that be food, shelter, jobs, or spouses. When someone has few or none of those items, then they will look elsewhere. It can be very difficult to fix these situations, depending on local climate, natural resources, or political attitudes. I do think that if the root causes were addressed, then religious extremism would certainly be reduced, if not eliminated. Steve Warning, addicted to SETI crunching! Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group. GPUUG Website |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Never even try to combat an Ideology. True. If doing that you will lose. However responding is necessary. Or are our responses from Saint Petersburg, Stockholm and now Manchester futile? I don't think so. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
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janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
"The answer to that question is key. " And that brings us round to the big question yet to be fully answered in the Manchester investigation: was there a missed opportunity to apprehend Salman Abedi? |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
In military mode, radar is good, once detected action is taken. In civvy mode, radar is useless. With all the major attacks here, all were on that radar. That fact alone is what needs to be looked at & carefully. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
With all the major attacks here, all were on that radar. That fact alone is what needs to be looked at & carefully. No. Not all are on the radar. For instance there have been two terror attacks at Drottninggatan Stockholm. The first perpetrator was totally unknown. The other one was only known by the Uzbekistan police. The American NSA, British GCHQ and Swedish FRA who work together had no idea. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
With all the major attacks here, all were on that radar. That fact alone is what needs to be looked at & carefully. The "operative" word in my comment Janne was here |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
The "operative" word in my comment Janne was here And I said :) The American NSA, British GCHQ and Swedish FRA who work together had no idea. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
The "operative" word in my comment Janne was here Which related to attacks outside the UK. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
The "operative" word in my comment Janne was here For heavens sake Sirius. We are all United in this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiB9Ug37X_8 Even Ireland is! Glory glory Man united, |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Yes we are United. Manchester United 2-0 Ajax at Friends Arena in Stockholm:):) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZwCYb7IYP8 |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
For heavens sake Sirius.Yes that we are. However when one is relating to something specific, it's a bit "naughty" to put this: No. Not all are on the radar. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
For heavens sake Sirius.Yes that we are. However when one is relating to something specific, it's a bit "naughty" to put this: Why do you say "naughty"? It's a fact that finding and monitoring terrorists is VERY difficult. Unless we want to live in a police state. Do you? Anyway. It took only 3 days to track the Uzbekistan killer down to the Swedish police! I think GMP will succeed to do the same. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30697 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I tend to agree with much of what you say but there are those who have good futures in developed western countries who become radicals. I can think of a couple of reasons they might become radical, the most obvious one is family left behind. Another is the realization they will never amount to more than a cog on a wheel, even if they have a million dollars. Perhaps some take an easy route to what they perceive as fame and glory. |
SciManStev Send message Joined: 20 Jun 99 Posts: 6653 Credit: 121,090,076 RAC: 0 |
That's true, but if the main ideological structure isn't there, or is very small, then there is no attraction to would be lone wolfs. I also look to the animal kingdom for examples of behavior. Male lions kill and eat offspring from other males/prides. Chimps go to war against other chimp tribes, sometimes to gain territory, sometimes just for fun. There is no definition of right or wrong, except what the leading chimp/gorilla wants. I saw a program the other day where one gorilla silverback tribe confronted another. The winner would get all the females. One leader decided not to risk a loss, and called his ladies back. People are primates, and exhibit many of the same behaviors seen in other species. They just cover it up by being part of a group. Some of the more well off people you mentioned do want to belong to something bigger than themselves. People do want to belong to groups, whether it is a sports team, a country, a religion, a political party, a business style such as lean management, or even a scout troop. The group they are in, is always the correct one, and anyone in another group must be opposed. It is even like meercats. Most often they fight over territory, where food is plentiful, but squabbles occur for other reasons also. Sometimes wandering males even seek out females from opposing groups for sex, then fight the same group a few days later. Fights are far less common, when the food supply is plentiful. This goes for other species also. The trick is to understand human behavior as not unique to humans, but a central part of animal evolution. For behavior to change can take generations, as well as the correct conditions. With ancient hominids I'm sure fights over territory, food, mates, etc occurred long before ideologies emerged. I read an article today about the Manchester bombing, that stated that night clubs were a place where Islam considers them bad people because of sex and debauchery. Their religion teaches them that this is bad behavior, and must be stamped out. Women have from the beginning of Islam been seen as second class citizens. One analogy I read was that if a bowl of cat food was in the open, the cat would go right for it, but if it was covered up, then the cat would stay away longer. That is how women are viewed as temptations, when in reality, is the natural urge to reproduce that is the temptation. Nothing is fool proof in eliminating these modern threats, but addressing the root causes of the complaints is necessary, or the problem will only get bigger. You can kill the terrorists, but that alone will radicalize more of them. If they have jobs, food, shelter, and mates, they are far less likely to risk it all for glory, while if they have non of those things, then they have nothing to lose, and can feel like a part of a group that is bigger than themselves. If there root is small, the tree is small. Steve Warning, addicted to SETI crunching! Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group. GPUUG Website |
cRunchy Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 3555 Credit: 1,920,030 RAC: 3 |
Nothing is fool proof in eliminating these modern threats, but addressing the root causes of the complaints is necessary... I was suprised that Manchester would be a target. It's not really a candidate for any form of targetted attack of some political nature. I remember when the IRA (financed by the USA) use to target my city for terrorist action. I think Americans are somewhat bereft of people to be angry with since the old cold war communists are no longer there. I have perhaps a more stoic approach to such destructions, threats and sufference. It is not beyond my own society's politicians just pior to an election to capitalise on incidents to gain leverage from fear for those extra votes. Americans in a way are lucky in their mind set. They are the invaders and have never been invaded. Us Brits, Europeans and Arabics, Indians, Chinese, Africans et-al from the oldy world... well we can react but in honesty our only choice is to try to create a better future... and if we groan we lose. The language of hate or anger or lack of understanding tends to include words like "them, others, individuals, evil, blah blah blah..." Just as a note.. If you think this was an individual act then by definition it was not a terrorist act. During the second world war a vast amount of personal wealth (including Fascist wealth) was transfered over to America along with those individuals who could pay to get out. I find it sad that America in the loss of it's old hate in the USSR now desires a new hate in Muslims. Often when devestation happens the words that those who react are the same words the harmfull use. For Manchester we stand. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30697 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Nothing is fool proof in eliminating these modern threats, but addressing the root causes of the complaints is necessary... You claim that is an Islamist belief. Sorry that applies to all who believe in the vengeful, all powerful, all knowing god of Abraham. A god that is so powerful he created the universe, but so week he needs mortal man to do his bidding. The root cause is poverty, or wealth disparity and social injustice. That is how the god of Abraham came to be, to escape slavery. Yet how quickly those descendants of slaves are willing throw the chains on anyone else. Take a sun god or a rain god. These did not come from social injustice. These came from nature and man's inability to understand random chance and a need to blame. I can't recall ever hearing of a sun god or a rain god that was vengeful, displeased yes, but not vengeful. Try looking at the peoples of Oceania. Many of their languages do not have words for the concept of ownership of property. The god of Abraham is unique because he came about due greed creating social injustice and envy. He is a god that needs to be forgotten as he is no longer needed. Man must also address the disparity between the haves and the have nots. As long as the gap is at big as it is today envy will cause terrorism. Man must face the face he is on spaceship earth and there is only so much stuff to go around. Everyone should get their fair share and no more. If that makes the shares too small then population control is needed. Today that seems to be taking the form of terrorism, although it isn't actually doing much to reduce the population. |
j mercer Send message Joined: 3 Jun 99 Posts: 2422 Credit: 12,323,733 RAC: 1 |
As long as the gap is at big as it is today envy will cause terrorism. I was taught envy is a weakness and only leads to trouble. Maybe a lack of up bringing is the cause of terrorism. The synonyms speak loads. All are choices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envy ... |
Mr. Kevvy Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 3776 Credit: 1,114,826,392 RAC: 3,319 |
Since over the past 100 years. Over 1 Billion have been murdered and enslaved by a Secular and Atheist Belief. Sigh... I will try again though previous attempts have been unsuccessful. But hope springs eternal... or not. Clyde: The United States is a secular nation. So is Canada for that matter. It has no official religion and the government is legislated to remain neutral in religious matters. If the government actively opposes religion, it is no longer secular. It is instead officially atheistic. And no, I wouldn't support that either. |
Mr. Kevvy Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 3776 Credit: 1,114,826,392 RAC: 3,319 |
I will try again. Your posting that I was speaking about the UK or other nations. Interesting that you would use a non-secular nation that I didn't even mention as your example. The head of state (the Queen) is also the head of the Anglican church and the church has seats in Parliament. But please continue to redefine the language as you see fit... |
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