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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30757 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
The minimum wage has always been bad for productivity and a cause of inflation. The cause of inflation is the Federal Debt and that causes the minimum wage. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30757 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I'm uncertain of the significance of counties won in a presidential election, other than as an indication of how the population is distributed between a small number of highly populated democratic leaning counties and a large number of low population republican leaning counties. Perhaps it is as simple as that. Republicans can't stand other people so they live in wide open spaces, Democrats don't mind other people so they live in cities. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19158 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
I oppose a minimum wage , period. The average personal income 40 years ago was about $10k, according to wiki, the source I used earlier says average now is $43k. I also looked at inflation rates since the 1970's and going by the CPI index, and yes I do question that rate also but it's the only one we have, then $10k spent in 1976 would be the same as about $40k today. That would infer people on average income are a little but better off today. Therefore unless you can give a reliable source I must question your figures. On minimum wage and negotiation, I could agree with you if the economy was always stable, but it isn't. In times when jobs are scarce and there are many unemployed the employers have the upper hand and can give the jobs to those who accept the lowest wages. The opposite can apply when employment is high, but probably not to the same extent, because there is probably someone willing to accept less than you. |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Right. You guys let me know when this post truth witch-hunt is over because it's messing with everybody's ability to think straight. You guys are flipping out I didn't add an "IIRC" which I thought was obvious and would never had added anyway. I trust my brain. (And as turns out... I DID remember correctly.) Bobby's asking a million questions about what doesn't seem to qualify as a paragraph even. WK is going on about me going all "apples and oranges" and 'round & 'round in circles when all I did was state a simple fact. Then he pulls a stat out of nowhere as I'm pretty damn sure the percentage of full time employed people is NOWHERE in this thread so... I'm also pretty sure he's mixed up the meanings of "mean" and "median", as median will always be lower in these stats. I can't even be bothered to trace back and look why he thinks I ever said "average" anywhere. Gary's flippin' out about a tax-stamp when all my brain can access is "killer weed", "dodgy Mexicans" and a blanket ban of other obscure substances like "hashish" when it was really cocaine and morphine that were all the rage way back when. Considering this is probably one of those "interstate" things I'm guessing more Tax-Stamp and less DoA/customs. But we can't have that discussion when he's in post-truth-hunting mode. And pretty much everybody beside a few Trump fans in here are going all California Ãœber Alles when one look at how counties voted across the States should be enough to tell you "thank f' each State doesn't get 10 electors and that's it". Popular vote? Terrible f'in idea for The States. And if that means Trump then so be it. Most of you are also oblivious to the fact that left & right have been moaning about the same things all across the Western World. Meanwhile the centrist, adorable, and cool POTUS was bombing 7 different countries up until VERY recently. I guess that means y'all think Hillary would go for 10 seeing as the only thing everybody here agreed on is that she's a warmonger. So that means the only way Trump is going to out-war those two is if he really DOES start a nuclear war. And how many people think that? Personally I consider the chances of him building a wall to be higher (and the chances of that happening are pretty close to zero). Most of the Left have been getting their stats from Piketty these past few years. And from people like Sanders & Warren. And everybody's so caught up in post-truth-finding that you forgot Trump sounded just like Sanders on a lot of things a few months ago. So his stats aren't wrong. It's just that he & his surrogates can't understand/memorize them to save their life! So no Bobby & WK, unless you work for Goldman the economy ain't doin' fine. Oh and fun-fact: Post-truth? My brain says "technique perfected and heavily used by Putin". Betcha never heard THAT one before... |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19158 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
unless you work for Goldman the economy ain't doin' fine. Now where did I say it is. But considering the state the US economy was in when Obama took office. It's a lot better than it was, or you wouldn't be talking about the low unemployment rate, or that wages are increasing. Admittedly slower that some think it should, but consider this FT - US wage growth accelerates at fastest pace since 2009 Could it be that, for some reason, like people wanting their old manufacturing jobs back, that some parts of the US are not evolving fast enough. conservative - definition - averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values. |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
I'm uncertain of the significance of counties won in a presidential election, other than as an indication of how the population is distributed between a small number of highly populated democratic leaning counties and a large number of low population republican leaning counties. Well now, I can't stand other people and I'd prefer a much larger yard, but I'd have to drive even farther for any descent job that pays well in my area. I guess that puts me in the Republican category according to your generalizations, which is at odds with what I keep getting accused of being. |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
On minimum wage and negotiation, I could agree with you if the economy was always stable, but it isn't. In times when jobs are scarce and there are many unemployed the employers have the upper hand and can give the jobs to those who accept the lowest wages. The opposite can apply when employment is high, but probably not to the same extent, because there is probably someone willing to accept less than you. Negotiating wages only helps those whom are good at heckling in the first place. Minimum wage only helps the entire class of people at the bottom, which admittedly has grown, however minimum wage jobs were never meant to be something to live off of. Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be entry-level while you build up a career and get started in life. Which brings me to my bigger problem: upward mobility and the middle class. The middle class does not benefit from minimum wage increases, and it is also the fastest shrinking class in the US (oddly, even the upper class has grown in the past 30 years). I'm not against minimum wage, but I don't think increasing the cost to flip a burger will help the economy. Big Money isn't going to swallow those costs. They will pass them onto the consumer, which means in the end we all lose. Sure, the higher income will help many for a short while, until price increases catch up all around, then the minimum wage class will be right back where they started: unable to afford things and looking for another increase. The best way to put more money in people's pockets is by increasing their earning potential, through education and opportunity. Education is costing more and more these days, making it unaffordable for the minimum wage earners and opportunity is only available to those willing to race to the bottom to show Big Money what they can do for them. Bring back upward mobility and you'll have a healthier economy. |
JaundicedEye Send message Joined: 14 Mar 12 Posts: 5375 Credit: 30,870,693 RAC: 1 |
I agree with almost every word of your post. However it isn't negotiating but having a point of strength . The trick is to learn a skill that will remain in demand. Don't have to be High Tech. Master Mechanics, Carpenters, Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC Techs, Welders and Masons can demand 6 times the minimum wage (whatever...)] and up. And there will never be enough new ones to replace the retiring and dying. And if you're really on the ball you can run your own company some day.......that's what makes America Great. Still or Again. Life is meant to move forward not have a minimum way of getting by. "Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)> |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19158 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Bring back upward mobility and you'll have a healthier economy. How many in the US realise that upward mobility in the US is lower that in most other counties. If the father is in the bottom 20% of the wealth scale there is only just over a 50% chance the son will rise up the scale. Less than one in 12 chance of making it into the top 20%. On the subject of minimum wage. Should the US go more towards the UK model, considering that this article, Minimum wage: Updated research roundup on the effects of increasing pay says; “Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented only about one-fifth of hourly paid workers, they made up about half of those paid the federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers (ages 16 to 19) paid by the hour, about 11 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with about 2 percent of workers age 25 and older.†I would assume that most people would expect young people to be low wage earners, they haven't learned the job yet. UK min wage rates. Year 25 and over 21 to 24 18 to 20 Under 18 Apprentice October 2016 £7.20 £6.95 £5.55 £4.00 £3.40 |
j mercer Send message Joined: 3 Jun 99 Posts: 2422 Credit: 12,323,733 RAC: 1 |
>>> The trick is to learn a skill that will remain in demand. Don't have to be High Tech. Master Mechanics, Carpenters, Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC Techs, Welders and Masons can demand 6 times the minimum wage (whatever...)] and up. And there will never be enough new ones to replace the retiring and dying. After early failures, I went with utilities and electrical power. Hokey but it's kinda like the Electric Company and the Water Company in Monopoly. Not the most profitable but, steady and secure. ... |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30757 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Gary's flippin' out about a tax-stamp Never said anything about a tax-stamp. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30757 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I'm uncertain of the significance of counties won in a presidential election, other than as an indication of how the population is distributed between a small number of highly populated democratic leaning counties and a large number of low population republican leaning counties. Yes and no. You yearn for a larger yard isn't so debilitating to you that you have made the decision to chuck the city. Orange County California voted for a democrat for the first time since FDR. Population density is higher now too. Of course is isn't a rule for individuals perhaps only to the median. |
bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3 |
Right. That admission might explain a lot, seeing as it's only reasonable to believe your opinion of everybody is based upon how you feel about your own abilities. You guys are flipping out I didn't add an "IIRC" which I thought was obvious and would never had added anyway. I trust my brain. It may not be as trustworthy as you believe, and in a public forum what has being self explanatory to the author to do with anything, posting here implies you'd like others to understand you. If you do not wish to engage with others, why post? (And as turns out... I DID remember correctly.) You rememdered your own recollection correctly? Prove it. (j/k) Bobby's asking a million questions about what doesn't seem to qualify as a paragraph even. Not sure what this is a reference to. WK is going on about me going all "apples and oranges" and 'round & 'round in circles when all I did was state a simple fact. Then he pulls a stat out of nowhere as I'm pretty damn sure the percentage of full time employed people is NOWHERE in this thread so... I'm also pretty sure he's mixed up the meanings of "mean" and "median", as median will always be lower in these stats. I can't even be bothered to trace back and look why he thinks I ever said "average" anywhere. Guy (not Gary) mentioned the federal stamp tax on THC bearing hemp. For somebody that admonishes others for not doing their research ... And pretty much everybody beside a few Trump fans in here are going all California Ãœber Alles when one look at how counties voted across the States should be enough to tell you "thank f' each State doesn't get 10 electors and that's it". Popular vote? Terrible f'in idea for The States. And if that means Trump then so be it. Is this intended to justify your earlier comment about inability to think straight? Most of you are also oblivious to the fact that left & right have been moaning about the same things all across the Western World. Meanwhile the centrist, adorable, and cool POTUS was bombing 7 different countries up until VERY recently. I guess that means y'all think Hillary would go for 10 seeing as the only thing everybody here agreed on is that she's a warmonger. So that means the only way Trump is going to out-war those two is if he really DOES start a nuclear war. And how many people think that? Personally I consider the chances of him building a wall to be higher (and the chances of that happening are pretty close to zero). Is Jill Stein your source? Not that she's wrong about this, though it might be helpful for others to know. Most of the Left have been getting their stats from Piketty these past few years. And from people like Sanders & Warren. And everybody's so caught up in post-truth-finding that you forgot Trump sounded just like Sanders on a lot of things a few months ago. So his stats aren't wrong. It's just that he & his surrogates can't understand/memorize them to save their life! This Piketty? Trump may have made some statements about workers that sounded similar to Sanders, pretty sure he said some other things that did not, and while some of Trump's stats may have been correct, are you this was predominantly the case? So no Bobby & WK, unless you work for Goldman the economy ain't doin' fine. I don't and never have worked for Goldman, and am unsure where you believe either of us said the economy is doin' fine, perhaps this mis-characterization is in part due to your inability to think straight. Oh and fun-fact: Not sure what you're trying to say here. I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
I agree with almost every word of your post. However it isn't negotiating but having a point of strength . The trick is to learn a skill that will remain in demand. Don't have to be High Tech. Master Mechanics, Carpenters, Electricians, Plumbers, HVAC Techs, Welders and Masons can demand 6 times the minimum wage (whatever...)] and up. And there will never be enough new ones to replace the retiring and dying. Negotiating might be about having a point of strength but in the entry-level, minimum wage area there isn't much room for differentiation, making negotiating a wage at the bottom pointless (or maybe I should say fruitless). Corporations know this and if they could get away with it, they'd pay pennies for unskilled labor. This is why I'm not opposed to minimum wage, but I don't think it helps solve the real economic problems we have. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24884 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Sure I saw a mention of "flipping burgers" somewhere... MacDonalds to move non-US tax base to UK "A McDonald's spokesman said the shift in the tax domicile for its non-US operations was not to do with obtaining a better rate of corporation tax, but was more to do with making its operations more efficient." ...Yeah, right. "The UK's corporate tax rate is currently 20%, and the government plans to cut it to 17% by 2020, the lowest in the G20." |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Sure I saw a mention of "flipping burgers" somewhere... Strange move. Why not move to Ireland? Ireland's corporate tax rate is 12.5%. And Irish meat is very cheap compared to the rest of the EU. Several European countries, including Sweden, Portugal, Ireland, Poland, Finland and the Czech Republic is not included in the G20, but has an indirect participation through membership in the EU. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19158 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
@Alex, Here's another piece that says your claim of earning figures are questionable and that you need to consider age ranges when talking about income. Older Americans Went Back To School During The Recession. Did It Pay Off? Experts agree that finishing the degree — especially a bachelor’s degree — is paramount for older adults who return to college. According to data from the Census Bureau, the median annual wage for a full-time worker ages 35 to 64 with some college but no degree is about $45,000. Those with an associate degree earn a bit more — about $49,000. But for those who finish their bachelor’s degree, the difference is dramatic: Their median earnings are $67,000 (For workers ages 35 to 64 with only a high school diploma, the median is just under $40,000.) By including all age ranges in your estimate, includes all the under 25's, who in the main, will either be living in their parents home or in a college dorm, who are 50% of those on min wage or below. |
JaundicedEye Send message Joined: 14 Mar 12 Posts: 5375 Credit: 30,870,693 RAC: 1 |
but in the entry-level, minimum wage area there isn't much room for differentiation, making negotiating a wage at the bottom pointlessAnd the key word is still entry-level. I started working at 14 years old, for $0.85 cents an hour. It was a way to learn a work ethic. I finished my career earning a salary in the high 5 figures with a nice 401k to see me through to the 'dirt nap'. I used those entry level 1st jobs as a college of life. The more you learn(in any business endeavor), the more you earn. Part of the point of entry level is not to stay entry level(unless you're incapable of improving yourself through stupidity or sloth). And Irish meat is very cheap compared to the rest of the EU.It ain't the price of meat, it's the cost of taxation that's spurring the move. "Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)> |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
but in the entry-level, minimum wage area there isn't much room for differentiation, making negotiating a wage at the bottom pointlessAnd the key word is still entry-level. We are in agreement. I'm merely pointing out why I support the idea of minimum wage for the benefit of other readers. |
JaundicedEye Send message Joined: 14 Mar 12 Posts: 5375 Credit: 30,870,693 RAC: 1 |
We are in agreement. I'm merely pointing out why I support the idea of minimum wage for the benefit of other readers.+1 "You can lead a horse to water............." " : > "Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)> |
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