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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30971 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Have you met the average high school student, let alone tried to teach them chemistry?Perhaps that is most telling. When I was in high school, several did build bombs, but not as destructive devices and this was before the Internet. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Have you met the average high school student, let alone tried to teach them chemistry?Perhaps that is most telling. ..and I really doubt many here qualify as "average" high school students. The fact that you were interested enough to find your way here and to run BOINC on your computer, and take time to read and post on the forums already means this group is pretty self selecting and your experiences are not sufficient to make you experts on what the average high school student is capable of. I have not come across one student who as ever made something with enough destructive capability to do what you are describing. I've had quite a few involved in stabbings. Most survived. This idea that somehow bombs are just as easy to get hold of and use than guns in nonsense. The idea that bomb making is being taught in schools is nonsense. Its true that detailed instructions are available on the internet...but how many school bombings have we had and how many school shootings? Reality Internet Personality |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
but how many school bombings have we had and how many school shootings? It's probably due to easy access to weapons in many countries that school shootings occurs. But how can any gun law protect us from school shootings? |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21099 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Unfortunately, the God of Abraham teaches the opposite. So, after 16000+ posts, there's something we can agree upon, sadly. And thus: Whatever named God (and gods) were wrought in Man's image and ways. Religions yet need to evolve to make our world a kinder and sustainable place. However, is there still very much a 'fight' between all religions? And our world and all people be damned? Was the Star Trek Federation idea a hopeful prosperous role model that contrasted with the destructive Klingon-style reality we have still?... Better and more widespread good education is needed yet. The balance is that when you know how to make bombs and mass destruction for yourself, you should be already educated well enough to feel strongly that there are better and more positive ways to go. Death and destruction is for the ignorant and 'oppressed'. Removing self-destructive tools is only part of the story but that is an important start to give everyone a chance to learn better things. Here's hoping, All in our only one world, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21099 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
... But how can any gun law protect us from school shootings? Remove the guns and ammunition in the first place. There are better ways for a culture to prosper. No guns and "show off" knives needed. All in our only one world, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30971 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
and I really doubt many here qualify as "average" high school students.With 1500 students in my class, it should have been large enough to be an average class, as I said we had several bomb makers, high explosive not just pyro stuff like black powder. Perhaps where you teach isn't average? Perhaps you don't see them when they are motivated? This idea that somehow bombs are just as easy to get hold of and use than guns in nonsense.Actually you are right, they are not equally easy to obtain. They are far easier to obtain than guns, even in gun crazy America. The idea that bomb making is being taught in schools is nonsense.Snort. Chemistry class either starts with bombs or brewing and the other is the next subject. Now I understand that isn't what the chem teacher uses as examples, but it is the reaction type being taught. Its true that detailed instructions are available on the internet...but how many school bombings have we had and how many school shootings?Well, quite a few in reality. Usually the bombers blow up lockers at night and not people in the day. Doesn't make national news. The shooters want to look in the eyes of their victims, the bombers are interested in vandalism. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Snort. Chemistry class either starts with bombs or brewing and the other is the next subject. Now I understand that isn't what the chem teacher uses as examples, but it is the reaction type being taught. Simply not true. The theory and the actual application is a different. Its so easy to mess up without a specific recipe that will cause the right rate of reaction and controlled detonation that you are talking about, and that is not taught in schools, and not all students take chemistry at the level require to figure it out from what is taught in schools. They are also less likely to be the ones that feel so hard done by by the world that they need to kill people. If bombs really were the threat you think they are, we'd have the president making speeches about bombs in schools. But he's not. You seem to be clutching at straws to defend a ridiculous position. Well, quite a few in reality. Usually the bombers blow up lockers at night and not people in the day. Doesn't make national news. The shooters want to look in the eyes of their victims, the bombers are interested in vandalism. I think you are confusing incendiary devices and small explosives with bombs that could maim and kill in the way a gun can. You also agree that the type of person who wants to kill people is more likely to use gun than build a bomb. Even if you blow up a locker in the day, you still will not cause the casualties that a shooter walking through a school with a gun can cause. I also doubt that many bombs are set off in lockers. Unless you thinking of firecrackers thrown down toilets. Reality Internet Personality |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19357 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Oh dear, America's issues working it's way further North. Are you not being a little OTT on your reaction to gun ownership in communities like this. If one lives or has business outside a town in this area it could be carrying a gun is an essential requirement. The Government of Saskatchewan lists bears,cougars and wolves as problem wildlife. http://www.environment.gov.sk.ca/wildlife |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Oh dear, America's issues working it's way further North. I'm just pointing out a correlation between areas where there are a lot of guns and the amount of mass shootings. If people do own guns there should be strict laws on how they are kept and who can have them. Reality Internet Personality |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30971 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
If people do own guns there should be strict laws on how they are kept and who can have them.A sheet of paper with a law written on it does not stop a bullet. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19357 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Oh dear, America's issues working it's way further North. Most mass shootings are done with automatic or semi-automatic weapons. Most hunting rifles, are bolt or lever action, and shotguns do not fall into the category. Although I do see semi-automatic rifles being sold in this sector, I would say people who use them or need to use them, need to learn to shoot better and then they wouldn't need them. In this particular case I think we need to wait and see if they can find out the reasons why he shot his two brothers and two school teachers. It is does not seem to fall into the "mass shootings" definition we see in other cases where anything that can or does move gets multiple rounds fired at them. |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51477 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
For your enlightenment...... Peruse the graphs. Rod Martin editorial. "Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once." |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
For your enlightenment...... I draw the conclusion that prohibit alcohol and drugs are dangerous from those stats. But we all know that alcohol and drugs don't mix with weapons. Stats of mass shootings however seems to increase according to other reasons and sources. Not only in the US. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30971 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
For your enlightenment...... Yes, mass shooting are up, all other homicide shootings are down way way down. The only shooting stat that is up is suicide. Perhaps we should make suicide pills available? America has a crazy control, er mental health issue. It isn't a gun issue at all. As to the must take them all away crowd, they all stuck their fingers in their ears, covered their eyes and screamed la la la la la la la ... rather than allow actual provable statistics to enter their brain. |
betreger Send message Joined: 29 Jun 99 Posts: 11412 Credit: 29,581,041 RAC: 66 |
Perhaps we should make suicide pills available? America has a crazy control, er mental health issue. All that takes is money and the will to do it and the pols don't have the balls to do what needs to be done. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30971 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Perhaps we should make suicide pills available? America has a crazy control, er mental health issue. Yes, because if these persons became contributing members of society they might pay taxes and resent the high tax rate imposed on the middle class and not be beholden to the government lifeline spigot. Translation, they might switch from democrat to republican. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30971 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Snort. Chemistry class either starts with bombs or brewing and the other is the next subject. Now I understand that isn't what the chem teacher uses as examples, but it is the reaction type being taught. I feel very sorry for your pupils. When they are finished with your class all they have accomplished is to regurgitate what has been shoved in by rote memorization. No wonder you have such a low view of the average high school student. I'm assuming you do spend some time teaching how to use lab equipment and measure out chemicals. Its so easy to mess up without a specific recipe that will cause the right rate of reaction and controlled detonation that you are talking about, and that is not taught in schools, They teach that in home economics. You are aware of that aren't you? That is the test method. Or are you convinced that your students aren't smart enough to test before they make a production device? and not all students take chemistry at the level require to figure it out from what is taught in schools. Ah, suddenly it has to be ALL students, not just some. ALL students don't shoot up schools even if they have a gun. They are also less likely to be the ones that feel so hard done by by the world that they need to kill people. Money, sex, drugs and wanting to be in the clique/gang make for strange bedfellows. And wasn’t just a line above ALL students? If bombs really were the threat you think they are, we'd have the president making speeches about bombs in schools. But he's not. You seem to be clutching at straws to defend a ridiculous position. Let's see if I remember all the devices my classmates made ... Molotov cocktails, napalm and thermite (just incendiary) ... gun powder and flash powder (those aren't high explosives but easy to make) ... gun cotton, fulminate of mercury, nitroglycerin and either TNT or a plastic (it's been a while). They weren't nuts and only made small batches and they had access to an open area to test the stuff and got a healthy respect for it. If they had been a bit Columbine ... but they weren't so you don't know the name of my school. Even if you blow up a locker in the day, you still will not cause the casualties that a shooter walking through a school with a gun can cause. I also doubt that many bombs are set off in lockers. Unless you thinking of firecrackers thrown down toilets. It is easy to make a pipe bomb. Powder, pipe, caps, ball bearings, buck shot or BB's. I think even your average high school student can assemble one that is rather deadly. Just a bit smaller version of what was used at the Boston Marathon. The hard part isn't making the explosive. That hard part is making a remote detonator so you aren't in the blast zone. Test devices are easy, a match lit fuse works. But remote electric (phone or timer) is a bit harder, or was until the instructions on the net. Now as to the kids who are likely, well, if you take the guns away from the ones who would have used guns, do they turn instead to bombs? |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Snort. Chemistry class either starts with bombs or brewing and the other is the next subject. Now I understand that isn't what the chem teacher uses as examples, but it is the reaction type being taught. Being rude isn't a substitute for knowing what you are talking about. Please stop telling an experienced science teacher what the majority of pupils can and can't do. You are simply wrong and misunderstanding a lot of things about how people learn and how they apply knowledge. I'm assuming you do spend some time teaching how to use lab equipment and measure out chemicals. You are making a lot of assumptions trying to make 2+2 add up to 5. Just because I teach something and students can do it, doesn't mean they can transfer that knowledge elsewhere. Some can, a lot can't.
Indeed they do. However the bomb recipe is not on the curriculum. You are aware of that aren't you? That is the test method. Or are you convinced that your students aren't smart enough to test before they make a production device? Sigh. I don't even know what to say to you. Are you seriously trying to tell me how science education works? Just stop. This is getting silly.
Which was exactly my point. So glad you are catching. Not ALL students can make a bomb. ALL students can use a gun. I think I said that before. By removing guns from the equation you reduce the pool of potential mass killers. They may have the will, but not the means.
ALL students can use a gun. That means that those that want to kill some people can get a gun and do it. So therefore more killings. A lot of shootings are not planned that far in a advance.
Were they made in small batches because it isn't that easy do scale up and get it right? You do know that mercury is not kept in schools any more? Nor are nitric acid of a strong molarity. I'd be interested to see how you could get hold of the materials. I doubt your gunpowder had much bang, molotov cocktails? You can burn somewhere down sure. Its not quite the same as mowing people down with an automatic rifle. I am sure you adventures with small amounts were great and its nice to hear you big yourself up, but small scale to big scale isn't always that easy for so many reasons.
I think we've already established that most of these things are available on the net. Your argument was that all these kids were learning this in highschool science. Which they are not. Most of highschool chemistry is moles and balancing equations and the odd titration. The reactions learned there will not easily transfer to some sort of bombmaking activity. Even your easy pipe bomb will take some planning, effort to get the things together. Increasing the chance of getting caught or for the angry person to calm down. A pipe bomb also can't chase its victims and move from room to room. Its a one shot deal. Nasty, but a little more hit and miss than a gun. Now as to the kids who are likely, well, if you take the guns away from the ones who would have used guns, do they turn instead to bombs? Some of them might, but I doubt most of them will. The UK doesn't have many guns, it doesn't have many mass shootings, it has even less school based bombings. Bombings take effort. Angry entitled young men who think the world owes them something rarely want to put too much effort in. Reality Internet Personality |
Mark Stevenson Send message Joined: 8 Sep 11 Posts: 1736 Credit: 174,899,165 RAC: 91 |
Are you saying your student's are stupid ? I knew how to make explosives when I was 13 / 14 im 42 now and until 3/4 years ago when I got a pc and started doing seti here the only computer I had was a Amstrad CPC 464 not exactly cutting edge . Nowadays you can find almost everything on the net if you just spend time looking , I reckon i could make a " little boy" atomic bomb quite easily its NOT hard at all, just I cant find uranium 235 on Ebay ;-) Life is what you make of it :-) When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30971 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
You do know that mercury is not kept in schools any more? Nor are nitric acid of a strong molarity. I'd be interested to see how you could get hold of the materials.Wow another precondition. They have to make it at school from school materials. Your head is buried so deep in the sand your feet aren't visible anymore. ALL/some ask yourself, is it the popular kid or the bullied science geek who is likely to explode in rage? |
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