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W-K 666  Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19091 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 
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BBC reports 737 Max grounded until May, at least. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47567039 |
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Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14654 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874
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The FAA didn't do anything!My point precisely. I said they have the responsibility (or duty, if you prefer shorter words) to act. |
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Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14654 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874
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My morning newspaper contained this final paragraph on this story: Boeing, one of the US's largest manufacturers, is a lobbying powerhouse with deep ties to the White House and Congress.This isn't the politics board, but could that possibly be part of the reason that the FAA didn't act? |
Sirius B  Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 
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Politics didn't program a faulty software package. Politics didn't install faulty sensors. Boeing is at fault here, not politics. |
 Wiggo  Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 34896 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 
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+1 Cheers. |
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Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7
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Drive over to the politics board & start a thread. |
Gary Charpentier     Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30687 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 
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Politics didn't program a faulty software package. If indeed it had anything to do with the second crash. The eyewitness accounts seem to be a bit at odds with the Lionair crash. A different airplane crash https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Small-Plane-Crashes-at-Compton-Airport-Tarmac-507124031.html |
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Grant (SSSF) Send message Joined: 19 Aug 99 Posts: 13750 Credit: 208,696,464 RAC: 304
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If indeed it had anything to do with the second crash. The eyewitness accounts seem to be a bit at odds with the Lionair crash. Yep. We've even less of an idea of what happened with this crash, than with the Lion Air crash- and that one has just the preliminary report so far. If the Lion air crash was caused by the anti-stall system as is presently considered to the be the case, then it could be disabled on all such aircraft by removing the breakers for that circuit- shutting down those breakers was how the crew on the previous flight dealt with the issue when it occurred then. However, if there was then a crash that occurs that could have been prevented by the anti-stall system, then things would get even uglier. What needs to be sorted out is- 1 The software. The goal of the software is to stop a stall condition from being reached. While stall conditions could occur that would result in the sensor outputs that have been reported, it's so very unlikely as to be almost impossible. Rapidly varying angle of attack & airspeed values are more likely to be a result of system problems than actual physical actions of the aircraft. Such inputs should not trigger the system. 2 Pilot training. How is it some pilots were aware of the system, and knew how to deal with it's misbehaviour, and so many others weren't even aware of the system being on the aircraft? That a new system (or an existing system with significant operational changes) is fitted to an existing model of aircraft & there is no mandatory pilot briefing & training/retraining on the use & troubleshooting of such a system requires some very serious investigation and remediation- yet again. 3 The sensor values. Are the sensors faulty? Wiring? Connectors? The flight computer itself (hardware or software)? The fact is, the anti-stall system shouldn't be receiving these erroneous inputs in the first place as they also feed in to other systems & result in incorrect output from them as well. Grant Darwin NT |
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Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7
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1: Boeing 2: Boeing/Airlines 3: Boeing |
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30687 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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1: Boeing Try 1) Boeing 2) Airlines 3) Certification agency |
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Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7
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In a statement, he added that Boeing was going ahead with a software update that will address the behaviour of the flight control system "in response to erroneous sensor inputs".Hope they test the hell out of it before granting clearance to fly again |
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30687 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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Now we know why they crashed. Profits. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/21/crashed-boeing-jets-lacked-key-safety-features-that-were-add-ons.html Crashed jets reportedly lacked key safety features because Boeing charged extra for them |
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Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14654 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874
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I'd love to know: 1) How much it costs Boeing to fit the indicator and light 2) How much it was going to charge customers for them |
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rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22227 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380
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Like many things in life ask two accountants and you will get two different answers. In terms of labour, it will depend on if Boeing use a common loom and just don't plug it in, or they build each loom individually. If it's the former then just a few $, if the latter the loads of $$. And either way they will charge loads and loads of $$$$ "just because they can". What worries/scares me if that the FAA didn't consider this lamp a "vital safety aid". Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30687 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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I'd love to know: 1) Not much if it suddenly became a "free" upgrade. 2) Seems all orders are on a quote basis and not from an options price sheet. So you want a deal on the widget and the price of the doohickey goes up. As to the wiring harness, because every airplane has a different seating arrangement from cramped to cargo they do have to be made in small batches. However the flight controls should be rather similar, but that doesn't mean the avionics (radios, weather radar) is the same. So again I suspect small batches. But if Boeing was a bit smart it would sell the indicator as a post delivery upgrade and have run the wires. Then again customers don't want extra weight on the air-frame as that is more fuel burned every flight. Hopefully there will be an Airworthiness Directive ordering the installation of the indicator and light to continue to operate the aircraft. |
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W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19091 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67
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I have to ask, "Why two sensors?". If you have two time pieces, do you know what the time is? and the same applies with two thermometers. |
zoom3+1=4  Send message Joined: 30 Nov 03 Posts: 65773 Credit: 55,293,173 RAC: 49
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I'd love to know: United needs the upgrades on its Max's, Southwest already had them when they bought their Max's. This was on the TV news. I think the lawyers are sharpening their knives over this, something that should have been standard from the word GO. The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's 
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Grant (SSSF) Send message Joined: 19 Aug 99 Posts: 13750 Credit: 208,696,464 RAC: 304
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I have to ask, "Why two sensors?". Redundancy. If you have only one, and it's faulty, you're up that particular creek with no paddle. Generally when it comes to things such as air speed and angle of attack, erroneous values tend to stand out from correct ones so you can tell which sensor is good & which one is faulty. Things get really ugly when both systems are giving erroneous values. Grant Darwin NT |
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Grant (SSSF) Send message Joined: 19 Aug 99 Posts: 13750 Credit: 208,696,464 RAC: 304
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I'd love to know: And then there's the other question- … were not equipped with an angle of attack indicator or an angle of attack disagree light, the paper said. The angle of attack indicator determines how much the plane's nose is tilted, and the disagree light is activated if the jet's sensors are giving contradictory signals. 3) If the plane can indicate that there is a problem with the inputs, why isn't/wasn't the automatic anti-stall system automatically disabled when such a condition occurs? The anti-stall system needs accurate airspeed & angle of attack data to actually determine if a stall condition is likely to occur. If it doesn't have this information, it can't make any judgment on the likelihood of a stall & so it shouldn't activate the anti-stall prevention actions under such conditions. Grant Darwin NT |
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zoom3+1=4 Send message Joined: 30 Nov 03 Posts: 65773 Credit: 55,293,173 RAC: 49
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I'd love to know: Most likely Money. The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's
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