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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30664 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I saw on Charlie Rose's program last night that Kim Davis has been married and divorced several times, has by her own admission committed adultery and had a child out of wedlock. It looks to me like her strict faith in God has some holes in it. "Saving" is the devil's method of harvesting a soul. You get one chance and you either do or don't, there isn't a do over. |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
But, you and WK are focusing on the wrong thing: most Christians believe God gave them free will, with the exception of those such as Calvinists. Since most, by and large, do believe they have it as a gift or curse from God, the fact that they try to get others to behave they do in accordance with the laws of their God, they in effect go against God's gift or curse of free will. Having been raised Lutheran ... and calling myself until 2002 or a little after ... and at least Christian for a few more years after that ... I have friends, ones I grew up with and current ones, that are fundamentalists. I have thrown this question out there, similarly worded. I've never received a response or satisfactory response. So, no, I don't understand. But I am looking for the source. There's the story of the Good Samaritan. Certain things, we cannot stand idly by and allow to happen: seeing a person being robbed, raped or murdered. If we cannot help directly, we can call for help, etc. ... . But I think there are many things being called sin that simply don't rise to the level of the three heinous examples I just provided. And I really doubt that they think this is just like the Good Samaritan story, My suspicions. |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
Well Christian fundamentalists have a habit of ignoring much if not all the lessons from the new testament. They tend to focus excessively on the old testament. And that part of the bible is pretty clear about what you should do with people who 'deviate' from the rules. Usually it involves chucking rocks at those people until they are dead. Now of course stoning people is illegal and considered murder, which is a step to far for most people, including fundamentalists, so they go to the next best thing and that is trying to stop gay people from being gay. And that takes various forms ranging from bullying gay people, sending them to pray the gay away camps and now also by trying to deny them access to certain government services. |
bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3 |
It is well documented that many Americans in the early years regarded the Constitution as a miracle. Many recognized it as a political achievement unprecedented in human history. They looked upon it, moreover, as an event that was actually "influenced, guided and governed" by the hand of God. This unrelenting attack on the U.S. with demands to remove all mentions of religion from government is an attack on this country from its formation. Why do you believe that others must trust the same higher authority as you? How is that not establishing a religion? I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30664 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
It is well documented that many Americans in the early years regarded the Constitution as a miracle. Many recognized it as a political achievement unprecedented in human history. They looked upon it, moreover, as an event that was actually "influenced, guided and governed" by the hand of God. This unrelenting attack on the U.S. with demands to remove all mentions of religion from government is an attack on this country from its formation. How is these person's belief in God, true? How is these person's belief that God guided them, true? Are there not many more possibilities? Many of which are more likely than some mystical man in the sky? |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
But, you and WK are focusing on the wrong thing: most Christians believe God gave them free will, with the exception of those such as Calvinists. Since most, by and large, do believe they have it as a gift or curse from God, the fact that they try to get others to behave they do in accordance with the laws of their God, they in effect go against God's gift or curse of free will. Really, "Brutus" no comments on ANY of this? The repetition is becoming ... brutish. |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
The Sarge Who: "It's my, my, my i-i-interpretation. Founding Fathers this, Founding Fathers that. I know what they said and you don't, George Washington hit me over the head with a whiffle Constitution bat. I wish all these people that can't read and interpret it my way would just f-f-f fade away. My, my, my, i-i-interpretation!" |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
I'll have to read that more closely later. Sure doesn't look like you've answered "Why does a fundamentalist feel they must stop another from sinning?" |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30664 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I'll have to read that more closely later. Sure doesn't look like you've answered "Why does a fundamentalist feel they must stop another from sinning?"Huh, Because a Fundamentalist must do God's work, even though God is all powerful! It is lust for power, one of those deadly sins. |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
Brutus: 1) Sorry, this isn't philosophy. This is some people telling other people how to live their day-to-day lives. 2) While I formulate my answer to your post, I'll ask you something else: do you believe only the Left seeks absolute power? Side-note: I grew up 6 hours from Boston and about 4 hours or so from Philadelphia and Gettysburg. 6 hours from Manassas. Most of those places, and historical sites, visited more than once. I read many of the documents or large portions of them as a kid of my own choice, not just when it came up in school. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
1) In the time I was busy typing up my response, you posted this? I totally agree with you about the problem with men. However, what you are pointing out is the Patriarchy as opposed to individual men who can also end up being oppressed by the patriarchy if they do not conform to societal norms (eg gender orientation). Most mass shootings are done by men. Most terrorist acts are done by men. Men use religion to oppress others. Women, such as Kim Davies also help reinforce the Patriarchy by getting into a position of power over others and using it to impose Patriarchal ideals. In the end this isn't about religion at all. Certainly not Christianity. Its about Patriarchy. So yes, I agree, we need to deal with the problem of men in our society. Reality Internet Personality |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
3) If talking about whether or not someone will burn in hell for eternity if they follow the law based on a God that exists outside of space and time and is immune to paradoxes is not philosophy, then what is it? Theology? |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
But to try to narrow my comment down to what you've presented, all I see are philosophical debates about free will and whether or not someone will burn in hell for eternity if they follow the law based on a God that exists outside of space and time and is immune to paradoxes. (?) Whether you did not read the other posts or are feigning ignorance, I do not know. This is not philosophy. It was Michel that brought up (much as I.D. did about 2 years ago) that God exists outside of time and space and is immune to paradoxes (such as how can He both be omniscient and give us free will). I brought those points up merely to tie together other discussions in this or similar threads and to make the point that we are not God(s), so the paradoxes Michel claims God is immune to does not apply to us: we are faced with paradoxes. As I elaborated, Clyde found it an interesting point. I asked if we are given free will (presuming the existence of the [Christian] God), how is it so many fundamentalists seek so often at so many levels to interfere with the free will of others? Particularly when the acts they condemn do not create Earthly emergencies, such as robbery, rape and murder do create. Kim Davis is a special case. I'll admit she's kinda weird. I'm sure there are many, many other county clerks who experienced conflict of conscience but they never made the news because they found ways to work around the federal government dictate that all county clerks will issue same-sex marriage certificates. I'm sure there was a way for Kim Davis to around it. How is it you think mentioning her name means you addressed the question "if we are given free will (presuming the existence of the [Christian] God), how is it so many fundamentalists seek so often at so many levels to interfere with the free will of others? Particularly when the acts they condemn do not create Earthly emergencies, such as robbery, rape and murder do create." ??? I'm not going to quibble over whether I asked "fundamentalists" or a particular "fundamentalist" such as Kim Davis. I would have been at least somewhat satisfied with a reason or the reasons Kim Davis felt the matter was so important, both in an immediate Earthly sense as well as for her eternal soul and the eternal soul of others to deny marriage licenses. (Again, this is not philosophy. Her action, or inaction, based on her beliefs, had an impact on the lives of many.) All you did was mention her name and state workarounds were possible. How does that answer the question? It's just another struggle for absolute power. Clyde indicated he found my proposed reason interesting. That if the "sin" does not rise to the level of causing an immediate Earthly danger, then it must (?) mean fundamentalists believe if they allow another to commit what in their view is a sin, it does not have an impact on the fate of just the sinner, but also on those that did not condemn the sin. This should have been very clear. Gary's suggestion was that they do it for power. This may very well be true and may be the reason or part of the reason. But what of my thought, that not condemning the sin also condemns the non-condemner's fate? Speaking of power: more could be said, but suffice it to say, other things you brought up in your post were not in response to what I said and what I asked. Some of it, at least, was in response to the thread title and specific issues brought up in this thread by others. It does make it a little more difficult to follow, but to a degree, it is understandable. But when you don't point out when you're addressing what parts and to whom you are speaking and then don't even really answer my question (which was asked because of your several posts in the past about your faith) ... well, why do you think you get the responses (or lack of response) that you do? You clearly missed the point of my question. I don't expect you will respond or, if you do, as you seek power (and have been corrupted by power before), you will seek to exercise your power of your posting style to wrest the conversation in the direction you wish it to go. It doesn't change the fact that my post was on topic and I asked a good question that others found interesting. I would have preferred if you'd raised your other points in a separate post and I really wish you could have tried to answer what was clearly the main point of my question. |
bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3 |
3) If talking about whether or not someone will burn in hell for eternity if they follow the law based on a God that exists outside of space and time and is immune to paradoxes is not philosophy, then what is it? What law would a Christian not be following by permitting others to marry? I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
So yes, I agree, we need to deal with the problem of men in our society. Isn't it just? I'm only using the same reasoning I've seen time and time again on these forums. I see lots of finger pointing at one group or another and lots of labels, for example your favourites of left wing and right wing. I've seen finger pointing at mental illness, colour and faith, and now Guy (AKA Brutus) has bought up the one obvious common denominator in so many of our problems. Reality Internet Personality |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
3) If talking about whether or not someone will burn in hell for eternity if they follow the law based on a God that exists outside of space and time and is immune to paradoxes is not philosophy, then what is it? And let's consider answers both from the point of view of Earthly laws and "God's" laws. (The latter being my question.) |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
I asked if we are given free will (presuming the existence of the [Christian] God), how is it so many fundamentalists seek so often at so many levels to interfere with the free will of others? Particularly when the acts they condemn do not create Earthly emergencies, such as robbery, rape and murder do create. A paradox happens when two statements are both true and mutually exclusive. The original paradox, namely we have free will and God is omniscient is a paradox because it would appear that having free will and having someone know everything we do before we know it are things that are supposedly mutually exclusive, yet both are also regarded as true. Your question is not at all a paradox, because having free will and then using that free will to try and impose your views/will onto others is not at all mutually exclusive. Nor is it hypocritical or otherwise against the Christian teachings. There is no command in the bible that says you shall not try to impose your views onto others. In fact, in some parts its quite the opposite, basically saying 'convert or die' (mostly the old testament, which happens to be the testament most fundamentalist Christians like the most). |
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