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Against ALL women - Infanticide, Slavery, Rape, Trafficking... (#3)
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Bernie Vine Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 9954 Credit: 103,452,613 RAC: 328 |
Struck me as quite unreal and I kept it. High flying women in the personnel dept not as real engineers , that was seen as a mans job even now by some, so please don't patronise me. In 2008 I had to fight to take on a female engineer at my last company, she was the best but it was an uphill struggle. I have read this thread over many weeks and decided that nothing I could say would make anyone who has these views that they treat women the same and yet every post suggests in fact they do not, see that. It was a waste of time on my part and I am not sure why I felt I could make a difference.. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
At least get it right. That is a military ambulance. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
At least get it right. That is a military ambulance. It looks like a truck to me, a military ambulance truck? Women stepped up in WWII and took the jobs that men were doing. They had been told for so long that women couldn't do these jobs, that they were too weak, or it would make them infertile etc that it was a surprise to them when they did them just as well. Suddenly women were allowed to earn their own money and be independent. They could make their own choices. You will hear many accounts from women of that generation about how the war was the best time of their lives for this very reason. Then the war was over and these women who had discovered new freedom were told to give the jobs back to the men and go back into the home. The second world war was the biggest catalyst for the feminist revolution. Can you imagine being able to suddenly work and be independent and free after always being told that the reason woman couldn't do these things was because they were incapable? The 50s was a reaction against this and a concerted effort was made to put women back where they 'belonged'. It was a terrible, repressive era for women, especially as so many of them had had a glimpse of freedom. Women who were unhappy were put on medication or locked up in asylums. Alcoholism was rife. It is no wonder that the feminists of the 60s and 70s were so angry. Reality Internet Personality |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
I hate fake boobs. I don't understand if this is really a thing men supposedly like as nearly everyone I talk to doesn't like them either. Women should stop doing this and most other cosmetic surgery immediately! What!?!? I say that women shouldn't go through with cosmetic surgery because I think they should be happy with the bodies they have and you tell me it is sexist? And further you assert that their doing this offends my male sense of taste? It couldn't possibly be about me wanting people to feel good about themselves naturally? Its been noted that cosmetic surgery can have a very positive effect on a person's sense of self worth. Their self worth shouldn't come from their breast size. But obviously since you've felt the need to broadly defend cosmetic surgery against a boob job comment, I do understand that there are times where cosmetic surgery can help during certain situations such as after a terrible car accident. I would hope that in context with a boob job comment, you would understand that I am only referring to unnecessary cosmetic surgery like buttocks injections and lip injections just for the sake of altering one's appearance to best fit some notion of beauty. |
Hev Send message Joined: 4 Jun 05 Posts: 1118 Credit: 598,303 RAC: 0 |
I hate fake boobs. I don't understand if this is really a thing men supposedly like as nearly everyone I talk to doesn't like them either. Women should stop doing this and most other cosmetic surgery immediately! You are still telling women what they should and shouldn't do, that is sexist. |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
You are still telling women what they should and shouldn't do, that is sexist. Telling people what they should or should not do has nothing to do with sexism. That the topic has to do with female boob jobs (as brought up by your daughter), does not automatically mean my views are limited to females alone. |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
You are still telling women what they should and shouldn't do, that is sexist. It wasn't a lapse in judgment. Men simply weren't the topic. They could have simply asked if I felt the same way about men doing this too before throwing the 'sexist' label at me. But yes, the same logic applies to men as well - and there are men that get 'pectoral' implants. (Funny how they are boobs to women but pecs to men.) It was more than obvious he meant that cosmetic plastic surgery was a band-aid, and not a solution, to low self esteem. Thanks. But more than that, I was hoping my comment would shed light on why people want to do this to themselves anyway. Why people - men and women - want to fit some idealized version of themselves that they think will look better to society - and yes, by proxy they will feel better about themselves for fitting what they think is society's idea of beauty, rather than teaching people to be OK with who they are and what they look like. While I understand that my definition of feminism and other's may not match up, I still support many of the ideals they espouse about women's rights and fair treatment toward women. It's getting to be ridiculous how often the invective of "Sexist" gets thrown around on this forum. Indeed. And I suspect it hurts the cause more than it helps. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
... Yes, when will us women learn that there is a right way and a wrong way to be a feminist. Reality Internet Personality |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
You are still telling women what they should and shouldn't do, that is sexist. I think women should be allowed to do as they damm well please, even if Ozzfan doesn't find it attractive. Reality Internet Personality |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
I think women should be allowed to do as they damm well please, even if Ozzfan doesn't find it attractive. Ozzfan wrote: I hate fake boobs. I don't understand if this is really a thing men supposedly like as nearly everyone I talk to doesn't like them either. Women should stop doing this and most other cosmetic surgery immediately! and it really reads like he is ordering women what to do because he doesn't approve. That's what it looks like, anyway. I've always thought that women "do as they damn well please". No permission needed. What world do you live in? Is that a chip on your shoulder? If it is, I've come by it honestly. It does seem really hard for some men to get out of the habit of telling women what they should and shouldn't do. Whether it be how to look, or how to express their opinions. It is so ingrained that you don't realise that is what you are doing, and that when confronted you accuse us of 'having chips on our shoulders". Reality Internet Personality |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
... Yes, clearly that's what I was saying. |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
I think women should be allowed to do as they damm well please, even if Ozzfan doesn't find it attractive. Of course they can. Why would anyone think otherwise? |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
I think women should be allowed to do as they damm well please, even if Ozzfan doesn't find it attractive. That's certainly one way to read it. I think it is a dangerous inference to suggest an opinion is an 'order'. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30651 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I hate fake boobs. I don't understand if this is really a thing men supposedly like as nearly everyone I talk to doesn't like them either. Women should stop doing this and most other cosmetic surgery immediately! Boob jobs can have a very positive effect on the pocket book [of a stripper] |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
.. The statistical data point you speak of has complicated causes. Having had to fight for the right to respected for all my careers (I've had more than one) as someone who needed part-time hours or who couldn't put in lots of overtime etc because of child care responsibilities, I am very, very aware of the artificial barriers placed in my path to career progression. It has been a long time source of frustration for me and not merely a curious statistical anomaly. It made a difference to whether I could afford to put food on the table. I imagine that 9+ years of living with a psychopath, and compulsive liar, might have affected you in some way. Its taught me about myself and made me really appreciate good men, if that's what you mean. There is nothing like coming out of a relationship like that and discovering just how lovely some men can be in comparison. Everyone has chips on their shoulders, and is better for knowing it. Which is why you will have noticed that I always make sure to put qualifiers and not generalise about all men. You noticed that right? You noticed that I am very clearly to keep my comments about some men or the patriarchal structure of society. You totally noticed that I am only talking about certain attitudes and have always made it clear that I am not talking about all men. If you didn't notice that, then perhaps you need to check your assumptions, because I am very careful about that. Often it's not what is said, but how it's perceived. I am completely and thoroughly aware that a lot of the time it will perceived through a filter of bias. I am very aware that this filter is so pervasive that a lot of the time the people perceiving it are totally unaware of what they are doing. I have watched Emma Watson's UN speech several times, and suspect that a less adversarial tactic might reap greater benefit for both women and men. If you are talking about me, I am totally not adversarial, merely assertive. Your perception of the way I approach things might be coloured by your knowledge of my gender. I am also totally aware that if you and I sat down and had this conversation you would think I was a lovely person and quite as nice and non-adversarial as Emma Watson. However, we are having this conversation via text which means it is much easier for people to insert their biases and preconceptions into the conversation. I am aware of this. I also am old enough to not care too much about. When I was younger it might have bothered me a lot to have so much projected onto me that simply isn't there. However, in the words of Taylor Swift, Haters gonna hate. Reality Internet Personality |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30651 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Yes of course in the areas and provinces, women engineers were very few and far between, mainly because they generally didn't want to do that sort of job, not because they weren't allowed to. And who the hell would want a job where they would be harassed every day because of their sex? |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
I have watched Emma Watson's UN speech several times, and suspect that a less adversarial tactic might reap greater benefit for both women and men. I think you come off far more adversarial than you realize. Your perception of the way I approach things might be coloured by your knowledge of my gender. It also may have nothing to do with it, but by throwing this suggestion out there, you are now able to brush off how people are trying to communicate something to you, namely that you and others tend to attack people who might well be allies to your cause if you didn't carelessly throw around a pejorative label. I am also totally aware that if you and I sat down and had this conversation you would think I was a lovely person and quite as nice and non-adversarial as Emma Watson. Until that actually happens, this comes across as you re-asserting that your approach isn't the problem; everyone else is. However, we are having this conversation via text which means it is much easier for people to insert their biases and preconceptions into the conversation. This, of course, applies to you as well. I am aware of this. I also am old enough to not care too much about. When I was younger it might have bothered me a lot to have so much projected onto me that simply isn't there. Is it really fair then, for you and others to project so much onto others that simply isn't there? However, in the words of Taylor Swift, Haters gonna hate. Funny that. The perception you're giving off to nearly everyone in this thread is that of a hater. I was largely staying out of this thread so as to simply read and learn. But now that I've had the big S thrown at me, and no reason to believe my opinion was wrong to openly state, I guess the learning about feminism stops here. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30651 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I have watched Emma Watson's UN speech several times, and suspect that a less adversarial tactic might reap greater benefit for both women and men. I'd say as adversarial as a "slick butch lawyeress" Your perception of the way I approach things might be coloured by your knowledge of my gender. +1 |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
No, I am aware. I am also aware that many others here are just as adversarial and I don't think being otherwise would be a good idea on this forum.
Except I did not call you sexist. I implied indirectly that your comment could be seen that way. Yet I have not called you sexist. Why do you think I have?
In your opinion. You do not speak for everyone. This, of course, applies to you as well. Of course, which is why I am careful what I write. However, none of the criticisms you have aimed at me have been about what I have actually written. Its all about how you feel about what I have written. Is it really fair then, for you and others to project so much onto others that simply isn't there? Every point I have made here has been based on evidence and academic studies. I have made nothing up and none of it is my own sole opinion. I have used personal examples to humanise the experiences we are discussing, but by no means are my points based solely on that experience. Funny that. The perception you're giving off to nearly everyone in this thread is that of a hater. This is your feeling. You also do not speak for nearly everyone in this thread. I was largely staying out of this thread so as to simply read and learn. But now that I've had the big S thrown at me, and no reason to believe my opinion was wrong to openly state, I guess the learning about feminism stops here. Some one in this thread pointed out that your demand that women behave in a certain way is sexist. It was not me that wrote that, yet it is me who you are now attacking. Two other people pointed it out you. One was not even female. Telling women to behave in a certain way is sexist, even you reasons were not. One does not cure sexism with more sexism. Reality Internet Personality |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
I'd say as adversarial as a "slick butch lawyeress" We have much in common then. Reality Internet Personality |
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