In case of an open war with NATO and barring nuclear escalation, NATO would probably win

Maybe so, but it would be preferable not to test it out.

I agree, but it is not up to us. If Russia makes the wrong moves we dont have much choice.

Size isn't everything. A lot of their material is old junk and poorly maintained. A lot of their troops are poorly trained and poorly equipped.

What!!!
A lot of Russias material is new "junk" and very well maintained. A lot of their troops are very well trained and equipped.
They also have combat experience...
Look at their VDV forces. Russian Air Force. Nukes...

In case of an open war with NATO and barring nuclear escalation, NATO would probably win.

That's a bit naive.

Hardly. The Russian estimated size of their army is somewhere in the upper 300.000 troops, with 1/3 of those being conscripts. The army is, much like everything else in Russia, corrupt to the core and ensuring that the mid to upper levels of the army are rife with people wholly incompetent to do their job. Add to that the rampant alcoholism in Russian society and you got a military disaster waiting to happen (Funny side note, military history is apparently filled with examples of where the Russians got their ass kicked because they were literally to drunk to fight). All of that isn't much of a direct problem in peace time (although the corruption is hemorrhaging them money), or in relatively small scale operations like in Ukraine.

But how well will the Russian army structure hold when they are under some actual pressure from fighting a war against an opponent that isn't a third rate old Soviet army?

I'm not saying it would be easy for NATO, in fact I think the Russians could give various NATO elements a run for their money, but in the end I think NATO would win.

Size isn't everything. A lot of their material is old junk and poorly maintained. A lot of their troops are poorly trained and poorly equipped.

What!!!
A lot of Russias material is new "junk" and very well maintained. A lot of their troops are very well trained and equipped.
They also have combat experience...
Look at their VDV forces. Russian Air Force. Nukes...

In case of an open war with NATO and barring nuclear escalation, NATO would probably win.

That's a bit naive.

Hardly. The Russian estimated size of their army is somewhere in the upper 300.000 troops, with 1/3 of those being conscripts. The army is, much like everything else in Russia, corrupt to the core and ensuring that the mid to upper levels of the army are rife with people wholly incompetent to do their job. Add to that the rampant alcoholism in Russian society and you got a military disaster waiting to happen (Funny side note, military history is apparently filled with examples of where the Russians got their ass kicked because they were literally to drunk to fight). All of that isn't much of a direct problem in peace time (although the corruption is hemorrhaging them money), or in relatively small scale operations like in Ukraine.

But how well will the Russian army structure hold when they are under some actual pressure from fighting a war against an opponent that isn't a third rate old Soviet army?

I'm not saying it would be easy for NATO, in fact I think the Russians could give various NATO elements a run for their money, but in the end I think NATO would win.

Sigh. I got news for you:
https://twitter.com/larsGyllenhaal
Read this book to begin with:
Russian elite unit: spetsnaz, osnaz, VDV and other elite forces
by Joakim von Braun and Lars Gyllenhaal

In this book you will find not only the dreaded spetsnaz soldiers but the whole spectrum of Russia's elite forces: troops with mini submarines and Alfa, Vympel, OMON airdropping troops and several added. The mere thought of "spetsnaz" got goosebumps on soldiers in the West during the 1980s. After the fall of the wall it became pretty quiet - they disappeared even? Or does Russia regeneration to become stronger than ever?

From the book's contents:
* Special Weapons and new underwater vehicles are now created to be used in, among other things, the Baltic Sea - new information and pictures
* Previously unpublished photographs and traces of foreign specialty was related mapping and sabotage in Sweden
* Previously unknown Soviet military maps of the Swedish cities and ports
* A new image of the Swedes' participation in Soviet Special Operations
* How spetsnaz have infiltrated the country before the outbreak of war

Joakim von Braun is a specialist in intelligence and cyber crime with particular interest in Russian espionage and military and Soviet history.

Lars Gyllenhaal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Gyllenhaal
His grandfather's brother Gunnar in a Soviet bomb crater March 13, 1940 in the Finnish Winter War.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lfJFi4FNZ7w/VQFeGD0XvVI/AAAAAAAAB8E/qMXVGOaoFFw/s1600/GGigrop.jpg
btw the co writer Joakim "Jocke" is an old schoolmate of mine:)

Novaya Gazeta, One of Russia's Last Critical Papers, May Go Out of Print!
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/novaya-gazeta-one-of-russias-last-critical-papers-may-go-out-of-print/517381.html

Sigh. I got news for you:
https://twitter.com/larsGyllenhaal
Read this book to begin with:
Russian elite unit: spetsnaz, osnaz, VDV and other elite forces
by Joakim von Braun and Lars Gyllenhaal

In this book you will find not only the dreaded spetsnaz soldiers but the whole spectrum of Russia's elite forces: troops with mini submarines and Alfa, Vympel, OMON airdropping troops and several added. The mere thought of "spetsnaz" got goosebumps on soldiers in the West during the 1980s. After the fall of the wall it became pretty quiet - they disappeared even? Or does Russia regeneration to become stronger than ever?

From the book's contents:
* Special Weapons and new underwater vehicles are now created to be used in, among other things, the Baltic Sea - new information and pictures
* Previously unpublished photographs and traces of foreign specialty was related mapping and sabotage in Sweden
* Previously unknown Soviet military maps of the Swedish cities and ports
* A new image of the Swedes' participation in Soviet Special Operations
* How spetsnaz have infiltrated the country before the outbreak of war

Joakim von Braun is a specialist in intelligence and cyber crime with particular interest in Russian espionage and military and Soviet history.

Lars Gyllenhaal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Gyllenhaal
His grandfather's brother Gunnar in a Soviet bomb crater March 13, 1940 in the Finnish Winter War.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lfJFi4FNZ7w/VQFeGD0XvVI/AAAAAAAAB8E/qMXVGOaoFFw/s1600/GGigrop.jpg
btw the co writer Joakim "Jocke" is an old schoolmate of mine:)

Elite forces can be devastatingly effective if used correctly, no one will deny that. But by themselves they can't win wars and this has been demonstrated over and over again throughout Russian military history, both before and after the fall of the Soviet Union. Just look at Afghanistan and Chechnya. The Russians got their bottoms handed to them in Afghanistan, and Chechnya was a bloodbath, despite the overwhelming advantage the Russians had.

An army's effectiveness is much more than the sum of its parts. As brilliant as the Spetsnaz are, if the rest of the army is run by corrupt, incompetent drunks, and a good part of it is, then they will still have a hard time fighting a war.

An army's effectiveness is much more than the sum of its parts. As brilliant as the Spetsnaz are, if the rest of the army is run by corrupt, incompetent drunks, and a good part of it is, then they will still have a hard time fighting a war.

Of course. Whats your point?
Russian army is NOT run by corrupt, incompetent drunks!
The Russian Airborne Troops or VDV (from "Vozdushno-desantnye voyska", Russian: Воздушно-десантные войска, ВДВ; Air-landing Forces) are not elite forces.
They are invasion forces!

Of course. Whats your point?
Russian army is NOT run by corrupt, incompetent drunks!
The Russian Airborne Troops or VDV (from "Vozdushno-desantnye voyska", Russian: Воздушно-десантные войска, ВДВ; Air-landing Forces) are not elite forces.
They are invasion forces!

Oh no? Then why is corruption the most common crime in the Russian army? Even the Russians themselves admit corruption is a massive problem within their armed forces.

http://www.interpretermag.com/growing-corruption-in-the-russian-military/

As for drunkenness in the Russian army, there are plenty of youtube videos on Russian troops being drunk and getting in trouble.

http://metro.co.uk/2013/04/03/drunk-soldier-drives-tank-into-lamp-post-in-russia-3581667/

Better yet, alcoholism is such a problem in Russia that it directly interferes with the recruitment of troops. Basically, to many are drunks or dead by the time they can fight in the army.

And whats this? An article of some high level Russian saying that basically the Russian army sucks?

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=37727&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=7&cHash=722cefe6b26bbe15d7178be545b6fb69#.VQRYYo5wu-0

Why yes it is. Still measuring military power in terms of tanks and planes, while having almost no clue on how to wage a modern war like the Americans do.

Yeah, sorry, but looking at Russian military history to this day, the first word that comes to mind is incompetent. They will need a lot more work before I will change my opinion.

Of course. Whats your point?
Russian army is NOT run by corrupt, incompetent drunks!
The Russian Airborne Troops or VDV (from "Vozdushno-desantnye voyska", Russian: Воздушно-десантные войска, ВДВ; Air-landing Forces) are not elite forces.
They are invasion forces!

Oh no? Then why is corruption the most common crime in the Russian army? Even the Russians themselves admit corruption is a massive problem within their armed forces.
http://www.interpretermag.com/growing-corruption-in-the-russian-military/
As for drunkenness in the Russian army, there are plenty of youtube videos on Russian troops being drunk and getting in trouble.
http://metro.co.uk/2013/04/03/drunk-soldier-drives-tank-into-lamp-post-in-russia-3581667/
Better yet, alcoholism is such a problem in Russia that it directly interferes with the recruitment of troops. Basically, to many are drunks or dead by the time they can fight in the army.
And whats this? An article of some high level Russian saying that basically the Russian army sucks?
http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=37727&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=7&cHash=722cefe6b26bbe15d7178be545b6fb69#.VQRYYo5wu-0
Why yes it is. Still measuring military power in terms of tanks and planes, while having almost no clue on how to wage a modern war like the Americans do.
Yeah, sorry, but looking at Russian military history to this day, the first word that comes to mind is incompetent. They will need a lot more work before I will change my opinion.

That was a long story to tell that Russia have a serious drinking problem.
You don't need to be sober in war.
In war the only thing you need to know is how to press a button and staying alive.
Even kids can do it.

Does anyone believe 'The War' will be confined to Russia, or near its borders.

I see scenarios.
What will the reaction be if Russia invade Northern Scandinavia in Russia's search for oil in the Arctic?
The countries that want oil in the Arctic is:
Russia.
Norway
Denmark
Canada.
USA

That was a long story to tell that Russia have a serious drinking problem.
You don't need to be sober in war.
In war the only thing you need to know is how to press a button and staying alive.
Even kids can do it.

Sure, shows what you know.

That was a long story to tell that Russia have a serious drinking problem.
You don't need to be sober in war.
In war the only thing you need to know is how to press a button and staying alive.
Even kids can do it.

Sure, shows what you know.

Мишель. Mikel, you are a silly man:)
But prove me wrong!

What will the reaction be if Russia invade Northern Scandinavia in Russia search for oil in the Arctic?

Why would Russia invade Scandinavia for oil? There are so many vast tracts of land within Russia that have never been explored or exploited for oil and gas. Transportation from Scandinavia would be another problem which would not exist from developed fields within Russia.

Besides, Germany just sold Russia 14(?) tracts of North Sea Oil fields without an invasion.

---

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

What will the reaction be if Russia invade Northern Scandinavia in Russia search for oil in the Arctic?

Why would Russia invade Scandinavia for oil? There are so many vast tracts of land within Russia that have never been explored or exploited for oil and gas. Transportation from Scandinavia would be another problem which would not exist from developed fields within Russia.

Besides, Germany just sold Russia 14(?) tracts of North Sea Oil fields without an invasion.

Please look at the map again and look up Russia rearmaments in Murmansk Oblast.
https://www.google.se/maps/@68.3970061,30.0247111,6z
https://www.google.se/#q=Russia+rearmaments+in+Murmansk+
BarentsObserver.com is an open internet news service, which offers daily updated news from and about the Barents Region and the Arctic. The site is run by the Norwegian Barents Secretariat in Kirkenes, Norway.
http://barentsobserver.com/en

Please look at the map again and look up Russia rearmaments in Murmansk Oblast.
https://www.google.se/maps/@68.3970061,30.0247111,6z
The countries that want oil in the Arctic is:
Russia.
Norway
Denmark
Canada.
USA

Janne, you need to quit being Myopic. ZOOM OUT on your map, you will see that by large, Russia ALREADY owns more Arctic territory than the other three combined! The only country I see with anything to gain as far as invading for Arctic Oil is Denmark! :D

---

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

Janne, you need to quit being Myopic. ZOOM OUT on your map, you will see that by large, Russia ALREADY owns more Arctic territory than the other three combined! The only country I see with anything to gain as far as invading for Arctic Oil is Denmark! :D

Myopic:) Yes, since a teenager.
Now I'm both nearsighted and the other.
My focus is about 1 meter away and reach about 2 meter away.

I think you do not know much about relations between Russia and Scandinavian countries. And that's understandable.
Since 1809, Sweden has always had an eye on Russia.
The map shows the Arctic that is a very strategic place since then whatever oil or not.
But it's very convient for the Russians to make Murmansk a base for oil exploration since it's icefree there during the Winters.
Remember the convoys to Russia in the WWII?

Boden Fortress is as far as I know always has directed cannons east.
My grandfather did his military service there in the early 1900s.

Today Russia are renovating its military bases in Murmansk Oblast, very close to Finland and Norway. They do not do that in any other place in northern Russia. Furthermore, both the crown jewel Moscow and Saint Petersburg Putin's hometown is next door to Murmansk :)

Do you know where the Russian submarines are coming from when they sniff the US and NATO in the rear?

https://www.google.se/#q=milit%C3%A4r+upprustning+murmansk

That was a long story to tell that Russia have a serious drinking problem.
You don't need to be sober in war.
In war the only thing you need to know is how to press a button and staying alive.
Even kids can do it.

Sure, shows what you know.

Мишель. Mikel, you are a silly man:)
But prove me wrong!

Really? You are asking me to prove that modern warfare involves more than hitting a button?

That was a long story to tell that Russia have a serious drinking problem.
You don't need to be sober in war.
In war the only thing you need to know is how to press a button and staying alive.
Even kids can do it.

Sure, shows what you know.

Мишель. Mikel, you are a silly man:)
But prove me wrong!

Really? You are asking me to prove that modern warfare involves more than hitting a button?

Yes:)

That was a long story to tell that Russia have a serious drinking problem.
You don't need to be sober in war.
In war the only thing you need to know is how to press a button and staying alive.
Even kids can do it.

Sure, shows what you know.

Мишель. Mikel, you are a silly man:)
But prove me wrong!

Really? You are asking me to prove that modern warfare involves more than hitting a button?

Yes:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFAKuz0ULS4

Sigh. I got news for you:
https://twitter.com/larsGyllenhaal
Read this book to begin with:
Russian elite unit: spetsnaz, osnaz, VDV and other elite forces
by Joakim von Braun and Lars Gyllenhaal

In this book you will find not only the dreaded spetsnaz soldiers but the whole spectrum of Russia's elite forces: troops with mini submarines and Alfa, Vympel, OMON airdropping troops and several added. The mere thought of "spetsnaz" got goosebumps on soldiers in the West during the 1980s. After the fall of the wall it became pretty quiet - they disappeared even? Or does Russia regeneration to become stronger than ever?

From the book's contents:
* Special Weapons and new underwater vehicles are now created to be used in, among other things, the Baltic Sea - new information and pictures
* Previously unpublished photographs and traces of foreign specialty was related mapping and sabotage in Sweden
* Previously unknown Soviet military maps of the Swedish cities and ports
* A new image of the Swedes' participation in Soviet Special Operations
* How spetsnaz have infiltrated the country before the outbreak of war

Joakim von Braun is a specialist in intelligence and cyber crime with particular interest in Russian espionage and military and Soviet history.

Lars Gyllenhaal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Gyllenhaal
His grandfather's brother Gunnar in a Soviet bomb crater March 13, 1940 in the Finnish Winter War.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lfJFi4FNZ7w/VQFeGD0XvVI/AAAAAAAAB8E/qMXVGOaoFFw/s1600/GGigrop.jpg
btw the co writer Joakim "Jocke" is an old schoolmate of mine:)

Elite forces can be devastatingly effective if used correctly, no one will deny that. But by themselves they can't win wars and this has been demonstrated over and over again throughout Russian military history, both before and after the fall of the Soviet Union. Just look at Afghanistan and Chechnya. The Russians got their bottoms handed to them in Afghanistan, and Chechnya was a bloodbath, despite the overwhelming advantage the Russians had.

An army's effectiveness is much more than the sum of its parts. As brilliant as the Spetsnaz are, if the rest of the army is run by corrupt, incompetent drunks, and a good part of it is, then they will still have a hard time fighting a war.

I agree with what you have stated. But Id like to add also that the Russian soldier is one tough indivual. He can take abuse from his own country that would have other armies in mutiny. He is capable of enduring hardships, malnutrion, and being used as cannon fodder to defeat the enemy at all costs.
The eguipent they have to use is often describe as simple. It is, It is desinged to be simple to use and robust.
Now im not saying that I overestimate them and give them powers they dont have. But if they are well lead those tough S.O.B.'s can be a problem for those who they attack. And dont forget they have a huge population they can use as expendables. They did so in WW2.
I to belive NATO would win a war. But it would be nasty.

---

[/quote]

Old James

I to belive NATO would win a war. But it would be nasty.

That's very true.
The Russians are almost like the Finns when it's diffecult times.
In Finland it's called Sisu.
Sisu (concept) - fighting spirit, stubborn perseverance, anger, to never give up. Is sometimes said to be typical of the Finnish people's temperament. The word "sisu" received international distribution under the Finnish Winter War, where Finland fought the Soviet Union.