Hot Lead Said:

start looking for your family plot

No Worries Mate. Been 'Plotted' fO 400 Years and Will be 'Here' fO Next 4 Million Years. Unless Earth 'Moves' Under My 'Feet'. Doubtful, very Doubtful. Lookin' Forward to 4 Million mO Years of Blue Sky, White Cloud, and Tasty O2, CO2, with a hint of Methane and Other FOSSIL FUEL Corrupted Gases.

HOHUM. Beating dat Uncorrupted DRum DRum and Havin' Fun Fun Here on The Isle.

Yep

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

On another note, ML1/Martin has for quite some time been focused on only the Fossil Fuel aspect, seemingly convinced that we can solve the problem by just stopping Fossil Fuel use without having much of a decline in standard of living. It seems that he has a joygasm every time someone puts up a wind turbine or a solar panel.

Or perhaps:

Accepting, without barbaric solutions, THE CHANGE, and adjust to it. While taking measures to reduce (stop?) any FURTHER Damage.

I used to think that this MIGHT work, but upon further reflection on the subject, I no longer believe this to be possibly successful in the long term.

ML1 wrote:

Technology and our civilization can save us, but only if we smash the stifling corruption so that we can let sustainable new clean ways succeed.

Major, it doesn't appear as if Martin has actually caught on. Perhaps he is just optimistic fool like the fossil fuel people who thinks that life can just go on.

Unfortunately, I agree with you. The tipping point was reached while Caesar ruled Rome. The number on the Georgia Guide stones of 500,000,000 humans may be somewhat optimistic.

But you are quite correct. If every human on the planet died tomorrow for 10,000 years at least the climate would continue to warm because of the things we have already done. The trash dumps belching methane for at least that long until the trash in them is converted by decay. No we screwed the planet a long time ago and not by burning a little oil, we deforested, we paved, we dumped, we fouled the nest with too much trash ... that is what has put us into this.

Yes, I think if we have a chance at tech, and that is less than 0.1%, we will need scores of new nukes to power the plants to strip CO2 apart into O2 and C60? to sink the buckyballs into caves or ocean trenches and get it forever out of the atmosphere. Unfortunately, the vast majority of humans on this planet aren't educated enough to realize that it is required, so politically it can't happen.

---

I may be wrong, but I get the impression that some of you think that CO2 has to be removed completely. This is not true if we didn't have CO2 and water vapour in the atmosphere then the temperature on earth would be about the same as that on the moon, -18°C (~0°F), and CO2 is also need for plant growth, it's where tree's etc. get their carbon from.

The CO2 concentration should be between 170 and 300 ppm.

I may be wrong, but I get the impression that some of you think that CO2 has to be removed completely. This is not true if we didn't have CO2 and water vapour in the atmosphere then the temperature on earth would be about the same as that on the moon, -18°C (~0°F), and CO2 is also need for plant growth, it's where tree's etc. get their carbon from.

The CO2 concentration should be between 170 and 300 ppm.

WinterKnight,

I never said ALL of it... I did suggest the pre-agricultural revolution value of 240ppm would be a reasonable target. But, what you do say is true.

I may be wrong, but I get the impression that some of you think that CO2 has to be removed completely. This is not true if we didn't have CO2 and water vapour in the atmosphere then the temperature on earth would be about the same as that on the moon, -18°C (~0°F), and CO2 is also need for plant growth, it's where tree's etc. get their carbon from.

The CO2 concentration should be between 170 and 300 ppm.

Spend a day watching the railroad cars hauling coal (carbon) out of a mine. That is a lot per day. It will take a long time to get that out of the atmosphere. No you don't remove all CO2, just 1/2 to 2/3.

---

On another note, ML1/Martin has for quite some time been focused on only the Fossil Fuel aspect, seemingly convinced that we can solve the problem by just stopping Fossil Fuel use without having much of a decline in standard of living. It seems that he has a joygasm every time someone puts up a wind turbine or a solar panel.

Or perhaps:

Accepting, without barbaric solutions, THE CHANGE, and adjust to it. While taking measures to reduce (stop?) any FURTHER Damage.

I used to think that this MIGHT work, but upon further reflection on the subject, I no longer believe this to be possibly successful in the long term.

ML1 wrote:

Technology and our civilization can save us, but only if we smash the stifling corruption so that we can let sustainable new clean ways succeed.

Major, it doesn't appear as if Martin has actually caught on. Perhaps he is just optimistic fool like the fossil fuel people who thinks that life can just go on.

Hi Gary,
I didn't say that Martin totally understood the problem yet, but that he had made some progress in admitting that there are further... issues with human activity that are helping to drive ACC that don't really have anything much to do with fossil fuel use. In fairness it *IS* progress on his part.

But I don't think calling him a 'fool' is very fair. He means well, but just doesn't understand the total problem yet...

Unfortunately, I agree with you. The tipping point was reached while Caesar ruled Rome. The number on the Georgia Guide stones of 500,000,000 humans may be somewhat optimistic.

Yes, that 500,000,000 figure is WAY too optimistic, in my opinion. The total global human population before we stepped out of the balance of nature is in my opinion a much better figure.

Just prior to the start of the Agricultural Revolution about 10,000 years or so ago, the total global human population was around 3,000,000. Yes, 3 million. The ensuing transition from (semi-)nomadic hunter-gatherer to settled-village agriculture is what removed us from the balance of nature, and set the stage for our somewhat rapid population increase to an obscenely high population of (currently) about 7,000,000,000 (7 billion), a figure that is over 2,333 times higher. It is THIS population increase that has enabled us to totally trash our environment along the way, and put us in our current predicament.

But you are quite correct. If every human on the planet died tomorrow for 10,000 years at least the climate would continue to warm because of the things we have already done. The trash dumps belching methane for at least that long until the trash in them is converted by decay. No we screwed the planet a long time ago and not by burning a little oil, we deforested, we paved, we dumped, we fouled the nest with too much trash ... that is what has put us into this.

Yes, I think if we have a chance at tech, and that is less than 0.1%, we will need scores of new nukes to power the plants to strip CO2 apart into O2 and C60? to sink the buckyballs into caves or ocean trenches and get it forever out of the atmosphere. Unfortunately, the vast majority of humans on this planet aren't educated enough to realize that it is required, so politically it can't happen.

Funny you mentioned C60 (buckminsterfullerene). Connections... Connections...

Yesterday, I was reading the Feb. 2015 issue of Scientific American. Yes, it is not a peer-reviewed journal, but is a collection of opinion pieces intended for somewhat of a mass-market (though definitely a niche) consumption.

I was reading the article "A Puzzle for the Planet" by Michael E. Webber on page 63 to 67 of that issue.

In that article Webber (deputy director of the Energy Institute at the University of Texas at Austin) explores Energy + Water + Food as it relates to 'sustainability'. He makes heavy quotes from an old chemistry professor of mine.

The professor: Dr. Richard E. Smalley, (along with Dr. Curl, also an old professor of mine, and Dr. Kroto) co-discoverer of C60. That team of 3 professors won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1996 for that discovery.

A couple of years before his death in 2005, Dr. Smalley developed a list of the 'Top 10 problems facing humanity for the next 50 years' and presented that list in a rather famous lecture in 2003.



http://cnst.rice.edu/content.aspx?id=246

Dr. Smalley's top 3 problems were

1. Energy
2. Water
3. Food

They are ALL interrelated.

Explaining climate change science & rebutting global warming misinformation.
Like water vapor is the most powerful greenhouse gas which seems to be correct!
http://www.skepticalscience.com/
If the global temperatures are rising then the atmosphere will contain more water vapor giving higher global temperatures...

http://4hiroshimas.com/

Our climate is absorbing a lot of heat. When scientists add up all of the heat warming the oceans, land, and atmosphere and melting the ice, they find our climate is accumulating 4 Hiroshima atomic bombs worth of heat every second.

Just watched American Experience:War of the Worlds
Why am I reminded of this thread?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/transcript/worlds-transcript/ wrote:

Louis F. Heidenrich, Burns, Oregon (actor): For those of us that love our country, we don’t want that kind of hoax put over the air. We want government regulated radio. We are opposed to every little city in this country getting a radio station and putting whatever they want over the air. We need a radio dictator.

Narrator: But what rankled many was not the broadcast itself, but what the reaction revealed about the American people.

Interviewer (re-creation): So you yourself did not believe the hoax?

Daniel O'Grady, Department of Philosophy, University of Notre Dame, Indiana (actor): No, those who were deceived by dramatic reenactment would, in an ideal society, be sterilized and disenfranchised. Such damn fools. It shakes one’s faith in democracy to think that such hysteria and panic can affect those who are supposed to vote intelligently next week.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/18888-embarrassing-predictions-haunt-the-global-warming-industry

“If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but 11 degrees colder by the year 2000,” claimed ecology professor Kenneth E.F. Watt at the University of California in 1970. “This is about twice what it would take to put us in an ice age.” Of course, 2000 came and went, and the world did not get 11 degrees colder. No ice age arrived, either.
...
The 2003 document, entitled “An Abrupt Climate Change Scenario and Its Implications for United States National Security,” was widely cited by global-warming theorists, bureaucrats, and the establishment press as evidence that humanity was facing certain doom.
...
Among other outlandish scenarios envisioned in the report over the preceding decade: California flooded with inland seas, parts of the Netherlands “unlivable,” polar ice all but gone in the summers, and surging temperatures. Mass increases in hurricanes, tornadoes, and other natural disasters were supposed to be wreaking havoc across the globe, too. All of that would supposedly spark resource wars and all sorts of other horrors. But none of it actually happened.
...
For well over a decade now, climate alarmists have been claiming that snow would soon become a thing of the past. In March 2000, for example, “senior research scientist” David Viner, working at the time for the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia, told the U.K. Independent that within “a few years,” snowfall would become “a very rare and exciting event” in Britain. “Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” he was quoted as claiming in the article, headlined “Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past.”
...
In 1988, Hansen was asked by journalist and author Rob Reiss how the “greenhouse effect” would affect the neighborhood outside his window within 20 years (by 2008). “The West Side Highway [which runs along the Hudson River] will be under water,” Hansen claimed. “And there will be tape across the windows across the street because of high winds. And the same birds won’t be there. The trees in the median strip will change.... There will be more police cars … [since] you know what happens to crime when the heat goes up.” In 1986, Hansen also predicted in congressional testimony that the Earth would be some two degrees warmer within 20 years. In recent years, after the anticipated warming failed to materialize, alarmists have cooled on predicting such a dramatic jump in temperature over such a short period of time.

I can hear the shrill shrieks now of a biased source, well, prove the quotes in the material wrong, or eat crow. The source may be biased, I am sure it is, but that does not invalidate it. If the people the source quotes said the things, then that is the record. With libel and slander laws I doubt that the quotes are seriously inaccurate.

That leaves the question of the massive exaggerations, or outright lies. I'll go with exaggeration, because the truth is that the change will be so small in a single human lifetime to be ignorable, which is what the press would do with the truth.

Orson Welles proved, the more outlandish the lie, the more it is believed.

---

... I can hear the shrill shrieks now of a biased source, well, prove the quotes in the material wrong, or eat crow...

That leaves the question of the massive exaggerations, or outright lies...

Interesting how that is the best you can do to try to convince us all that we can pollute on an industrial scale all without consequence. I suspect there will be more to the context for your quoting than has been included.

Note also how for here in the UK, we have for example had to go to considerable expense to build the Thames Barrier to protect against that particular river very expensively flooding London. There are a number of effects all at play for needing the barrier. Human caused climate change and intensified storms are significantly in there...


And contrast your example with this for crass denial for the more unsavory pollution the dirty fossils are pushing...:


Children given lifelong ban on talking about fracking

... The settlement, reached in 2011 but unsealed only last week, barred the Hallowichs' son and daughter, who were then aged 10 and seven, from ever discussing fracking or the Marcellus Shale, a leading producer in America's shale gas boom.

The Hallowich family had earlier accused oil and gas companies of destroying their 10-acre farm in Mount Pleasant, Pennsylvania and putting their children's health in danger. Their property was adjacent to major industrial operations: four gas wells, gas compressor stations, and a waste water pond, which the Hallowich family said contaminated their water supply and caused burning eyes, sore throats and headaches...


And that's before the stuff even gets burnt... There has to be a cleaner and sustainable way instead...


All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... I can hear the shrill shrieks now of a biased source, well, prove the quotes in the material wrong, or eat crow...

That leaves the question of the massive exaggerations, or outright lies...

Interesting how that is the best you can do to try to convince us all that we can pollute on an industrial scale all without consequence.

Only in the dreams and fantasy world of your mind is that being suggested.

---

BBC - Study: Global warming 'doubles risk' of extreme weather

Extreme weather arising from a climate phenomenon in the Pacific Ocean will get much worse as the world warms, according to climate modelling.

Parts of the world will have weather patterns that switch between extremes of wet and dry, say scientists.

The US will see more droughts while flooding will become more common in the western Pacific, research suggests.

The study, in Nature Climate Change, adds to a growing body of evidence over climate change and extreme weather.

The latest data - based on detailed climate modelling work - suggests extreme La Nina events in the Pacific Ocean will almost double with global warming, from one in 23 years to one in 13 years.

Heeba Habba. The Mayor of Isle of Cool Rockin' LavaTown scared US to Frozen Un-Moving Fear with His Precautions of Impending DOOM. We Couldn't Hide in Our Lava Tubes! WE COULDN'T MOVE! Waiting In Fear of Coming Disasters! Lava Hell!
As Usual, The DOOM and GLOOMists were WRONG, and Beautiful Blue Skies, White Clouds, Tasty 02, CO2 and a Pinch of Methane Prevailed. Sweetness as Usual.

HOHUM. The DRum DRum of Beat Beat Goes On and On.

Yep

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

... Interesting how that is the best you can do to try to convince us all that we can pollute on an industrial scale all without consequence.

Only in the dreams and fantasy world of your mind is that being suggested.

So that's agreement then that the industrial pollution and worldwide consequences are very real.

He does like to do this.

Just him.

Oooer... You do get so personal regardless of the discussion. Sorry but you're not my type.


All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Yet more recent extremes for the denialists to deny:


Doomsday Clock says 3 MINUTES to MIDNIGHT, again

... IT IS 3 MINUTES TO MIDNIGHT

Despite some modestly positive developments in the climate change arena, current efforts are entirely insufficient to prevent a catastrophic warming of Earth. Meanwhile, the United States and Russia have embarked on massive programs to modernize their nuclear triads—thereby undermining existing nuclear weapons treaties. The clock ticks now at just three minutes to midnight because international leaders are failing to perform their most important duty — ensuring and preserving the health and vitality of human civilization...


Brazil's most populous region facing worst drought in 80 years

Brazil's Environment Minister Izabella Teixeira has said the country's three most populous states are experiencing their worst drought since 1930...

... The drought is also having an impact on energy supplies, with reduced generation from hydroelectric dams.

The BBC's Julia Carneiro in Rio de Janeiro says Brazil is supposed to be in the middle of its rainy season but there has been scant rainfall in the south-east and the drought shows no sign of abating...


North-east US braced for huge snowstorm

A "potentially historic blizzard" could dump up to 90cm (3ft) of snow on the US north-east coast...


Climate change will hit Australia harder than rest of world, study shows

Australia could be on track for a temperature rise of more than 5C by the end of the century, outstripping the rate of warming experienced by the rest of the world, unless drastic action is taken to slash greenhouse gas emissions...


Still thirsty after Malawi's flood

Recent floods in Malawi have left hundreds dead, many more homeless and devastated crops...


Winter Storm Juno: Snow shuts down New York and Boston

New York City and other areas in the north-east US have shut down, with forecasters warning residents to expect "crippling" amounts of snow...


Study: Global warming 'doubles risk' of extreme weather

Extreme weather arising from a climate phenomenon in the Pacific Ocean will get much worse as the world warms, according to climate modelling.

Parts of the world will have weather patterns that switch between extremes of wet and dry, say scientists. The US will see more droughts while flooding will become more common in the western Pacific, research suggests.

The study, in Nature Climate Change, adds to a growing body of evidence over climate change and extreme weather...



As always, no singular extreme weather event is of any great significance unless you are caught in the middle of that event.

However, how many are needed to be convinced that there is something unnatural driving the extremes...?


We are making our own consequences,

and yet we procrastinate yet further!


All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Man O Live, dat #2 Heating Oil is PUMPIN' Out da Heat. Feelin' Toasty.

THANK YOU FOSSILS. I Love You FOSSILS. FOSSILS Died fo My Comfort.

Thanks Again FOSSILS.

Dirt, Pollution and Corruption Feels Wonderfully Comfy.

All Only In My Beautiful FOSSIL World.

CC DENIED. Again. And FO eva FOSSIL More.

Yep.

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

... Interesting how that is the best you can do to try to convince us all that we can pollute on an industrial scale all without consequence.

Only in the dreams and fantasy world of your mind is that being suggested.

So that's agreement then that the industrial pollution and worldwide consequences are very real.

Industries pollute. Pollution has consequences. Note the word "worldwide" has been removed because it does not apply to all industries, consequences or pollution.

---

Did we Strike a Chord?

What?! You Gay?

Sorry... Me not Jane nor senile.


(Apologies to others who are not Clyde...)

All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

So, really... We are all stupidly dumb enough to ignore Science and we must wait until too late we get our feet wet?!


Climate concern 'linked to floods'

Public belief in the reality of climate change has risen in Britain, partly because of the 2013 winter floods...



All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Britain and America, are two Country's; separated by a common language.

And all connected by the same planet and the same environment and the same atmosphere and the same climate effects.


Your pollution directly affects us all.

All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

So, really... We are all stupidly dumb enough to ignore Science and we must wait until too late we get our feet wet?!

Yes, the human condition seems to regard the short term as the most important thing.

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