What are you Brits paying per Kilowatt Hour ?

I have to ask.
Many here talks about the first and third World.
Where is the second world?
:)

Being re-constituted by Putin.

He He:)
But to be serious Russia are very concerned about the climat change, even Putin!
The Baltic states (Finland, Estland, Lituaen, Lettland, Polen, Tyskland and Sverige) still has a lot of cooperation with Russia in saving our environment we share.
Here is Voice of Russia Swedish edition. Yes. Kremlin controlled media to us living in Sweden.
https://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fswedish.ruvr.ru%2Fnorden%2F&edit-text=

However military spending in Russia's budget 2015 is maintained at the same level, while other costs are cut down.

Now Mumintrollet gets angry again:)
Goggle Translate mess up again...
Norden becomes Scandinavia.
Scandinavia is a peninsula. Norden means the North................

MajorKong...

Viable (under present morality) Solution?

THIS!!!

You have identified the crux of the problem.

Under *present* morality, any possible solution is going to be... difficult.

The 'traditional' curbs on human population have been...

Well, let us take a page from Christian mythology. The prophecy of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. Whoever wrote that had a good understanding of the situation.

1. War
2. Famine
3. Pestilence
Leading to
4. Death

So, we have war, hunger, and disease.

While we have made tremendous advances in the arts and sciences of war, our morality holds it in check for most of us.

We have made tremendous advances in the agricultural arts and sciences, and our morality demands we feed the hungry.

We have made tremendous advances in the medical arts and sciences, and our morality demands we heal the sick.

Death is somewhat whithering on the vine.

Our kinder and gentler notions of morality have led us to our present dilemma.

I know that I am quite likely to get flamed as a barbaric *(&*&^^ for saying this.

But, since we have kinda taken the old ways out of the picture, the current dilemma is forcing a choice. Do we return to the old ways? Or do we find new ways of enforced population control. Quite the Hobson's Choice. :(

If we could have somehow frozen the world population levels at what they were when I was born (about 3 billion), sustainability would be relatively easy. But we didn't. We are a bit over 7 billion now. Sustainability isn't possible at this level of population, not even with everyone living at the standard of living of the poorest of us now.

But whatever we do, we must do soon. We are running out of critical resources in some areas as we speak (think water).

In another post, Martin mentions a few items, but they are only of benefit (and YES, they would be of benefit) once the overpopulation dragon has been slain. And remember, the problems due to the sustainability problem are leading to Climate Change. The solution(s) to the sustainability problem are also going to be at least partial solutions to the (GHG)ACC problem.

I don't know, perhaps this topic might be deserving of it's own thread, even though it is definitely related to the subject of this one: GHG-ACC.

Your thoughts?

"Water"

Another example of a problem that already has a answer or does it ,(what will the brine do to the oceans when we start to release huge amounts of it ) but unless we can be sustainable in power it will only make things worse

Here in Australia we are the driest continent on the Planet and we built Water Desalination plants in

Sydney
Melbourne
Adelaide
and i Believe Perth

God help the bigger Country's we only have 24 million people

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God help the bigger Country's we only have 24 million people

About twice Los Angeles County California.

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What are you Brits paying per Kilowatt Hour ?

I'm currently paying 12.2 pence/kWh.

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

What are you Brits paying per Kilowatt Hour ?

I'm currently paying 12.2 pence/kWh.

In Sweden it's about 9 pence/kWh.
25% tax.
And about 40% service/invoice charge depending of the provider!

"Water"

Another example of a problem that already has a answer or does it ,(what will the brine do to the oceans when we start to release huge amounts of it ) but unless we can be sustainable in power it will only make things worse

Here in Australia we are the driest continent on the Planet and we built Water Desalination plants in

Sydney
Melbourne
Adelaide
and i Believe Perth

God help the bigger Country's we only have 24 million people

Yes, Australia has a somewhat small population for an entire continent at 24 million.

As Gary says in message 1660158:

About twice Los Angeles County California.

Los Angeles County has a population of about 12 million. The Greater Los Angeles urban area has a population of about 18 million. And the Greater Los Angeles urban area only has enough water for about 1 million in its own watersheds, so it must 'import' the rest of its needs.

Two US States have a population size greater than Australia.

1. California at about 38.8 million.
2. Texas at less than 50,000 people short of 27 million.

Both States are having 'water issues' currently, but California is far worse.

While Texas is in recovery from a very BAD drought (with much of the State at D4 -- the worst classification of drought) we have pretty much continuously been building new lakes and reservoirs, California hasn't been keeping up with this.

California has, per NASA/JPL about 1 year's worth of surface water left. Already, the Agricultural areas are pumping ground water from the aquifers at a totally unsustainable rate, collapsing the aquifers. Remember, 80% of all water use in California goes to agriculture, with 25% of all water use there going into just the fruit and nut agricultural sectors.

Your suggestion of Desalination plants is an idea that has occurred to me, but as you mention power is a problem. The most efficient source of power would be a nuclear reactor onsite at the plant, but this is not wise. Los Angeles is extremely prone to earthquakes (see the San Andreas fault). Other local power sources (wind & solar) have their issues as well. So, one would have to produce the power elsewhere and bring it into the region on transmission lines with their consequent power loss due to 'resistance'.

Another item of question with desalination plants is, as you mention, the concentrated brine that the plant will output back into the ocean. What environmental effects will THAT have in the area?

There really is no easy solution. They are going to have to go on strict water rationing (in addition to any / all other steps they take) in all areas of human activity there. People's individual water use (drinking, cooking, washing, lawn watering, etc), commercial water use, industrial water use, and, yes, Agricultural water use. This last one is going to be very problematic.

California's agricultural activity feeds not only themselves but quite a number of people in other States in the USA, and also in other Nations. Any cut in agricultural output is going to lead to food price increases. As supply decreases, and demand stays constant, prices increase. But demand is not staying constant, it is increasing too due to population increases. California's water woes can potentially cause economic difficulty in much of the rest of the world.

As California goes, so goes a LOT of other people in other regions.

Los Angeles County has a population of about 12 million. The Greater Los Angeles urban area has a population of about 18 million. And the Greater Los Angeles urban area only has enough water for about 1 million in its own watersheds, so it must 'import' the rest of its needs.

Two US States have a population size greater than Australia.

1. California at about 38.8 million.
2. Texas at less than 50,000 people short of 27 million.

Both States are having 'water issues' currently, but California is far worse.

While Texas is in recovery from a very BAD drought (with much of the State at D4 -- the worst classification of drought) we have pretty much continuously been building new lakes and reservoirs, California hasn't been keeping up with this.

California has, per NASA/JPL about 1 year's worth of surface water left. Already, the Agricultural areas are pumping ground water from the aquifers at a totally unsustainable rate, collapsing the aquifers. Remember, 80% of all water use in California goes to agriculture, with 25% of all water use there going into just the fruit and nut agricultural sectors.

California's agricultural activity feeds not only themselves but quite a number of people in other States in the USA, and also in other Nations. Any cut in agricultural output is going to lead to food price increases. As supply decreases, and demand stays constant, prices increase. But demand is not staying constant, it is increasing too due to population increases. California's water woes can potentially cause economic difficulty in much of the rest of the world.

As California goes, so goes a LOT of other people in other regions.

California !
(Death Valley Days, straight ahead)
The future is scary
Yes, it sure is
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=76328&postid=1655639#1655639

California !
(Death Valley Days, straight ahead)
The future is scary
Yes, it sure is
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=76328&postid=1655639#1655639

You wanna get made sad and "sick"? More detail on those pictures linked in that thread you linked to.


http://e360.yale.edu/feature/video_colorado_river_running_near_empty/2443/

The narrator, at the end of the video said: ( I hope I got it word for word) (about 11:00 to 11:30)

When I started this journey, I didn't know what I would find. I was curious about a river that ran through my back yard. I just wanted to know where our irrigation water went, and how long it would take that water to reach the sea. I found my answer: Today, it's never.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/drought-stricken-california-set-measure-snowpack-30041321

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http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/drought-stricken-california-set-measure-snowpack-30041321

In your link to the article one of comments to it says.
"Too many greedy people. US people consume over 50 times the volume of Earth's resources than Ethiopians do."
A bit weird comparision but anyway:(

California !
(Death Valley Days, straight ahead)
The future is scary
Yes, it sure is
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=76328&postid=1655639#1655639

You wanna get made sad and "sick"? More detail on those pictures linked in that thread you linked to.
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/video_colorado_river_running_near_empty/2443/
The narrator, at the end of the video said: ( I hope I got it word for word) (about 11:00 to 11:30)

When I started this journey, I didn't know what I would find. I was curious about a river that ran through my back yard. I just wanted to know where our irrigation water went, and how long it would take that water to reach the sea. I found my answer: Today, it's never.

Very good link MajorKong.
My lines...

(Death Valley Days, straight ahead)
The future is scary
Yes, it sure is

is actually from a song done by a music artist living in LA 40 years ago!

http://abc7.com/weather/gov-brown-orders-mandatory-water-restriction-in-california/603581/

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http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/drought-stricken-california-set-measure-snowpack-30041321

In your link to the article one of comments to it says.
"Too many greedy people. US people consume over 50 times the volume of Earth's resources than Ethiopians do."
A bit weird comparision but anyway:(

7 Billion Ethiopians, will also destroy The Climate.

How about 7 Billion grumpy old Swedes:)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/drought-stricken-california-set-measure-snowpack-30041321

In your link to the article one of comments to it says.
"Too many greedy people. US people consume over 50 times the volume of Earth's resources than Ethiopians do."
A bit weird comparision but anyway:(

7 Billion Ethiopians, will also destroy The Climate.

How about 7 Billion grumpy old Swedes:)

7 billion of ANY ethnicity or nationality of human will destroy the Climate, not to mention the Environment as a whole. But, that said, if it is Europeans or US Citizens we will likely do it faster. And the US Citizens will do it faster than the Europeans. Our ecological footprints are bigger.

Our ecological footprints are bigger.

Indeed.
But I saw this about the glaciers in Himalaya.

Melting glaciers in the Himalayas and decreasing monsoon rains in Asia with subsequent drought are two clear effects of the increased emissions of black carbon particles, according to a report published in the scientific journal Nature Geoscience.

It's about black carbon particles attracting sunlight, and where the accumulations of dust in the air is large it becomes warmer.

Science has long since determined that "the brown clouds" over the Indian Ocean and other areas in Asia have great impact on the climate. Now they have also become aware of the soot particles role.

- There are particles which heats the air over the Indian Ocean and makes the air sweeping across the Himalayan mountain warmer, says climate researcher Erland Källén to SR echo.

The soot comes not only from fossil fuels but also from biofuels in cars and especially the burning of wood and other bio fuels.

It is mainly in the tropical part of the world that this newly discovered problem is. Where people prepares food over an open fire and heat their houses with wood and coal.

- Since the particles coming from the emissions caused by humans, especially people in developing countries, so it's a new technology that is needed, especially for cooking and heating the houses, says Erland Källén to SR echo.

Our ecological footprints are bigger.

Indeed.
But I saw this about the glaciers in Himalaya.

Melting glaciers in the Himalayas and decreasing monsoon rains in Asia with subsequent drought are two clear effects of the increased emissions of black carbon particles, according to a report published in the scientific journal Nature Geoscience.

It's about black carbon particles attracting sunlight, and where the accumulations of dust in the air is large it becomes warmer.

Science has long since determined that "the brown clouds" over the Indian Ocean and other areas in Asia have great impact on the climate. Now they have also become aware of the soot particles role.

- There are particles which heats the air over the Indian Ocean and makes the air sweeping across the Himalayan mountain warmer, says climate researcher Erland Källén to SR echo.

The soot comes not only from fossil fuels but also from biofuels in cars and especially the burning of wood and other bio fuels.

It is mainly in the tropical part of the world that this newly discovered problem is. Where people prepares food over an open fire and heat their houses with wood and coal.

- Since the particles coming from the emissions caused by humans, especially people in developing countries, so it's a new technology that is needed, especially for cooking and heating the houses, says Erland Källén to SR echo.

Well, I have seen things like solar ovens. Perhaps that technology could be put to use here. Of course, it wouldn't work at night or around dusk or dawn. But during the middle of the day? They would be great to help with this!

Perhaps this effect also has to do with the rainfall pattern shifts of late in California and the rest of the Southwestern USA. Another thought. I know that the pattern of the Mexican monsoon rains has shifted on the northern end of it. Parts of West Texas that were desert when I was a child are now (or at least the last time I was there about 10 years ago) grassland.

Well, I have seen things like solar ovens. Perhaps that technology could be put to use here. Of course, it wouldn't work at night or around dusk or dawn. But during the middle of the day? They would be great to help with this!

However there is a problem...
Half of the Earths population live in that region in Asia.
Perhaps 3 billion solar ovens...

Perhaps this effect also has to do with the rainfall pattern shifts of late in California and the rest of the Southwestern USA. Another thought. I know that the pattern of the Mexican monsoon rains has shifted on the northern end of it. Parts of West Texas that were desert when I was a child are now (or at least the last time I was there about 10 years ago) grassland.

Rainfall pattern shifts WILL occure in the future.
On the Swedish westcoast it's predicted to rain even more then it does now!.

And if the Gulf Stream change it's way to Scandinavia, then I'm out of here.