If Western Non-Believer's get into a Real War with Mid-Eastern Believer's:

Will it still be referred to as a Religious War?

Yes, because religion would still be involved in at least one side of that war, so for them it would be religious-based.

We could, and have done worse, not following the teachings of this man.

Christians 'pick and choose'. So? Every organization, and group does.

Really feel no need to obsess over Christian teachings, or the minutia of his life. Apparently you do.

There are many more important things.

Fully agree with you here.

Some atheists seem a little obsessed with pointing out all the perceived flaws of Christianity and how horrible some of the stories in the bible are. Yeah sure, what about it? Christianity has evolved over the past 2000 years, its just not the same thing anymore as it was 2000 years ago.

Does it still inspire some people to be horrible towards other people. Yeah, sure. It also creates a community of people and brings people closer together. And those horrible people? They would still be horrible even if Christianity didn't exist. Religion doesn't make you a horrible person, it just gives a horrible person a framework in which to be horrible. But trust me, there are dozens of other ways in which people can be horrible towards others.

There is another point of view possible.
Religion takes place and time from human beings that could be devoted to something else instead. They could gather together and be closer together based on something else than dummy rituals, don't you think so? In this sense religion always was and still is very big hinder device of humanity.
Also, faith, ethical doctrine and religion are different things. If someone experience faith in some let say divinity why should one also accept all rituals that particular religion prescribes to follow to "communicate" with that divinity? And of course following those rituals says nothing about how strongly one shares ethical doctrine of particular religion.
I would say rituals are just great waste of all: human time, human faith, human ethics and human energy. All this deserves better usage.

EDIT: why religion and religious rituals so attractive - they give forgiveness. That psychological illusion all peoples need. And christianity goes even further in that, it carefully cultivate the conception of guilty and sin, to make followers even more strongly binded with the need of forgiveness from some(one/thing) outside of them. All guilty... That's religion credo...

Amazing that after all the oppression religion has done toward anyone that doesn't believe in their particular sect, and even moreso toward anyone that doesn't believe at all, that anyone who speaks out against this self-righteousness and sees nothing good from it is labeled by you and everyone that thinks like you as bigots.

All that oppressing? Honestly, if you look at human history, religion is only responsible for a tiny share of oppressing. It absolutely pales in comparison to all the oppressing that has been done for political or economic reasons.

And you completely ignore the positive role religion has also played in human history. It has united large groups of people, it has inspired art and science (yes, science), architectural wonders and gives millions of people peace of mind.

I Agree With Everything GOoD About Religion, The Netherlands Person has Stated.

Religion for The Last 1500 Years has been Used By The Extremely 'Smart' People to Bilk The Common HuWoMan Out of Hundreds of Trillions of Dollars and Initiate False Hopes in Billions of Peoples.

Corporations and Politicians have 'Used' The Religion 'Playbook' to Do The Same to All of HuWoManity for Their Sales, Policies, and Agendas.

The Most Recent Co-Opt of The Religion Playbook being Global Climate Change.

DEM/Libs Use 'it' for All Their Concocted 'Wars On', Race Baitings, and Other Agendas.

Religion is A Wonderful Construct of Our Cultural Evolution, but 'its' 'Use' for Evil, Profit, Politics, and Plain 'Ole Scams is SICKENING.

Religion is Not Bad, The Perversions of 'its' Persuasive Powers for Use by Non-Religious Entities is The Damnation Now Confronting and Controling All Aspects of Advancement of Knowledge and Cultural Compassions.

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

It absolutely pales in comparison to all the oppressing that has been done for political or economic reasons.

Political? I thought politics was religion! Especially when you consider that many religions are (or were) the government.

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And you completely ignore the positive role religion has also played in human history. It has united large groups of people, it has inspired art and science (yes, science), architectural wonders and gives millions of people peace of mind.

It united large groups just to turn one large group against another and make even more blood to spill.
It inspired art of limitations, only tiny field of possibilities to paint were allowed. In fact, it opressed art all the time.
Same with architectural wonders.
It gives peace of mind taking MIND away. It's peace of death.

EDIT: why religion and religious rituals so attractive - they give forgiveness. That psychological illusion all peoples need.

Yes. It makes it more easy to do bad things.
In the name of God!

It united large groups just to turn one large group against another and make even more blood to spill.

At the same time, it prevented lots of smaller groups waging war against each other, which would have been the inevitable alternative. So, either a few large groups wage war against each other, or thousands of smaller groups wage war against each other. I prefer the few large groups option.

It inspired art of limitations, only tiny field of possibilities to paint were allowed. In fact, it opressed art all the time.

Yes and no. For one, in most civilizations art starts out as religious. Without religion there very well could be no art for large times within a particular cultures history. Some limited art is better than no art. Second, for example Christianity in Europe is the only reason why any Roman art still survives to this day. Third, religion is far from the only movement or organization to oppress art.

Same with architectural wonders.

Religion gave you buildings ranging from the Pyramids to the Hagia Sophia and you call that limited? Religious buildings are limited in just one thing, and that is their original function. Otherwise I would not call them limited.

It gives peace of mind taking MIND away. It's peace of death.

In fringe cases yes. For the average person who is not a complete tool, religion gives peace of mind without interfering with their rational thought. Unless you are one of those Atheists who consider the very notion of even acknowledging the possibility that there is a God irrational. Personally I consider those people just supremely arrogant.

And you completely ignore the positive role religion has also played in human history. It has united large groups of people, it has inspired art and science (yes, science), architectural wonders and gives millions of people peace of mind.

It united large groups just to turn one large group against another and make even more blood to spill.
It inspired art of limitations, only tiny field of possibilities to paint were allowed. In fact, it opressed art all the time.
Same with architectural wonders.
It gives peace of mind taking MIND away. It's peace of death.

I agree. Art is important to all of us.
Thats why opressors disapprove to art.
Or should I say they accept art but not all.

It united large groups just to turn one large group against another and make even more blood to spill.

At the same time, it prevented lots of smaller groups waging war against each other, which would have been the inevitable alternative. So, either a few large groups wage war against each other, or thousands of smaller groups wage war against each other. I prefer the few large groups option.

Unjustified conclusion. Group can be united w/o opposition to another group.
Initionally peoples cooperated against weather and other non-human obstacles. Religion as any ideology set off groups against each other.

Without religion there very well could be no art for large times within a particular cultures history.

Or would be some another art we can not even imagine being always poisoned by religion. Experiment w/o control, unjustified.

Religion gave you buildings ranging from the Pyramids to the Hagia Sophia and you call that limited? Religious buildings are limited in just one thing, and that is their original function. Otherwise I would not call them limited.

And religion took many lives to construct those wonders in the first place. Of course, what is few thousands of dying slaves in the name of god?...
Instead of spending energy and resources for making beauty houses, beauty libraries and so on and so forth all those was spent to create useless buildings. Yes, they are beautiful, but useless. W/o this poison we could get beautiful useful buildings.

For the average person who is not a complete tool, religion gives peace of mind without interfering with their rational thought.

LoL, sure rational thought not affected. Peoples still know when to milk cows and when to pay tithe. And one-two killed heretics and one-two burned witches per village... no, it's purely rational, of course...
Just FYI: in India womans still killed for witchcraft, today, 21-th sentury. This poison is very strong... maybe worth to stop advocating it?...

Amazing that after all the oppression religion has done toward anyone that doesn't believe in their particular sect, and even moreso toward anyone that doesn't believe at all, that anyone who speaks out against this self-righteousness and sees nothing good from it is labeled by you and everyone that thinks like you as bigots.

All that oppressing? Honestly, if you look at human history, religion is only responsible for a tiny share of oppressing. It absolutely pales in comparison to all the oppressing that has been done for political or economic reasons.

Yeah, only a tiny bit of oppression. Others are far worse! Really, honest! I only hate blacks a little bit! And Jews too! Just a tiny bit! Others hate them much more than me, so that makes it OK? Right? Right?


(for the record, I do not hate blacks or Jews)

And you completely ignore the positive role religion has also played in human history. It has united large groups of people, it has inspired art and science (yes, science), architectural wonders and gives millions of people peace of mind.

The same can be done without religion, so I don't really see that as an argument in favor of it. People just need to believe in themselves instead of an external fictitious being.

And religion took many lives to construct those wonders in the first place. Of course, what is few thousands of dying slaves in the name of god?...

The Pyramids were not built by slaves.

Wonder what the "wages" of a pyramid builder are compared to minimum wage Walmart today? Don't forget to factor in that Walmart has to pay Social Security and Medicare tax and workers compensation and disability insurance. For another comparison what is the worth of Pharaoh vs. the Walton Family?

When you get those numbers, we can talk about "slaves."

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Religious buildings are limited in just one thing, and that is their original function.

Are they, some of the religious buildings of England built before the Reformation (1537) were converted to schools and colleges.

Religious buildings are limited in just one thing, and that is their original function.

Are they, some of the religious buildings of England built before the Reformation (1537) were converted to schools and colleges.

If you look at the religious building in my profile picture, it has been converted into another use. No not the fountain, the building behind. However the fountain might have been used as a baptismal. Now it just keeps the squirrels thirst quenched.

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A non Muslim sticks a piece of bacon on a Muslim's door = 2 years imprisonment.

Muslim burns poppies = £60 fine.

Ain't religion grand!

I have found no evidence, presently, historically, nor personally, of a Supreme Being.

Therefore... I am an Atheist.

However... I am still open to any proof.

Note: Please don't use this thread to 'convert' me into a Believer. If there is a Supreme Being - HE will use a more appropriate method.

But see? You are at least open to the possibility, however remote, that you might be wrong. In my view, that is a very sensible position.

And don't worry, I'm not interested in converting people. I think believing or not believing is a personal choice one has to make, and its non of my business what people end up choosing.

I just can't stand these one sided attacks against religion, like its the supreme force of evil on this world. It detracts from the actual criticisms religion rightly deserves.

Unjustified conclusion. Group can be united w/o opposition to another group.
Initionally peoples cooperated against weather and other non-human obstacles. Religion as any ideology set off groups against each other.

No, its not unjustified. Without religion peoples overriding loyalty would have been to their families or villages, clans or tribes. History is rife with examples of clans waging war against each other. But at least religion gives people some common ground to work with and creates a sort of common understanding. It reduces the pressure to wage war on your neighbor.

Or would be some another art we can not even imagine being always poisoned by religion. Experiment w/o control, unjustified.

Again, not unjustified. In other for arts to exist, you need persons or organizations that are capable and interested in paying for an artist existence through commissioning art work on a somewhat regular basis. That basically leaves you with two groups of potential supporters of the arts: nobility or the church. Everyone else isn't rich enough, and art for arts sake couldn't happen because it meant the artist would pretty much starve to death.

So could nobility pay for art? Yes, and that happened in large, highly developed empires like the Roman empire. But for huge parts of human history, there was no large well developed empire, and if there was it never covered the entire world. Religion was simply the only organization large and wealthy enough capable of systematically supporting the arts.

And religion took many lives to construct those wonders in the first place. Of course, what is few thousands of dying slaves in the name of god?...
Instead of spending energy and resources for making beauty houses, beauty libraries and so on and so forth all those was spent to create useless buildings. Yes, they are beautiful, but useless. W/o this poison we could get beautiful useful buildings.

Thousands of construction workers also died constructing the sky scrapers in Manhattan. And slavery? Well we all know that slavery happens with or without religion.

And yeah sure, its religions fault that peasants in the dark ages didn't live in small castles or didn't put libraries all over the place. Because if religion wasn't there, that would totally have happened.

LoL, sure rational thought not affected. Peoples still know when to milk cows and when to pay tithe. And one-two killed heretics and one-two burned witches per village... no, it's purely rational, of course...
Just FYI: in India womans still killed for witchcraft, today, 21-th sentury. This poison is very strong... maybe worth to stop advocating it?...

Superstition is not the same as religion. You can remove religion, but superstition would still remain. Rather than removing religion, you might find it easier to simply educate people about how the world works.

Even so, would that stop things like witch burnings? God no, those would continue under a different name and with a different rationale behind them. Instead of calling them witch burnings we would call it 'secret police executing political enemy of the regime'.

The stupidity of mixing religion with politics. :-(

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/pakistani-actress-veena-malik-and-husband-sentenced-to-26-years-jail/story-fnixwvgh-1227136622439

Cheers.

Pyramids?

Are we doing science for the sake of religion or religious hate or hatred.

Racism possibly ends up being slightly less fearful, but in the end both whites and blacks may feel the force of evil when it first happens.

Blue Moon.

Oh I thought that someone said something, I must of been hallucinating.

Now what was I doing?

Cheers.