Observation of CreditNew Impact

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Profile Jord
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Message 1380031 - Posted: 11 Jun 2013, 20:49:15 UTC

It's very easy to vent about it on the forums here. Chances are very high that Dr. Anderson doesn't read it anyway. I've yet to see the first person post that he's emailed Dr. Anderson personally. I've yet to see someone post about it on the BOINC development email list.

All of the people flaming Dr. Anderson in this thread, when will you email him? Go on, see if he cares then.
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Message 1380044 - Posted: 11 Jun 2013, 21:55:45 UTC - in response to Message 1380031.  

It's very easy to vent about it on the forums here. Chances are very high that Dr. Anderson doesn't read it anyway. I've yet to see the first person post that he's emailed Dr. Anderson personally. I've yet to see someone post about it on the BOINC development email list.

All of the people flaming Dr. Anderson in this thread, when will you email him? Go on, see if he cares then.

http://www.setiusa.us/showthread.php?2415-BOINC-DA-admits-CreditNew-is-really-a-random-number-generator
SETI@home classic workunits: 93,865 CPU time: 863,447 hours
Join the BP6/VP6 User Group today!
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Message 1380047 - Posted: 11 Jun 2013, 22:06:59 UTC - in response to Message 1380044.  

It's very easy to vent about it on the forums here. Chances are very high that Dr. Anderson doesn't read it anyway. I've yet to see the first person post that he's emailed Dr. Anderson personally. I've yet to see someone post about it on the BOINC development email list.

All of the people flaming Dr. Anderson in this thread, when will you email him? Go on, see if he cares then.

http://www.setiusa.us/showthread.php?2415-BOINC-DA-admits-CreditNew-is-really-a-random-number-generator

LOL, I'd almost forgotten starting that thread. 18 months ago, even.
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Message 1380072 - Posted: 11 Jun 2013, 23:54:34 UTC - in response to Message 1380031.  

It's very easy to vent about it on the forums here. Chances are very high that Dr. Anderson doesn't read it anyway. I've yet to see the first person post that he's emailed Dr. Anderson personally. I've yet to see someone post about it on the BOINC development email list.

All of the people flaming Dr. Anderson in this thread, when will you email him? Go on, see if he cares then.


Email to Dr. Anderson


Dear Dr. Anderson,

I don't know if you are aware of the discontent on the part of some Seti@Home
volunteers in regards to the precipitous decrease in credits being awarded to the
new work units being issued after the release of S@H Version 7. Personally I wouldn't
care if you gave out credits at all. I don't participate for the credits.

I do find the continuing whining over low credits somewhat tiresome though.

I have stated in the forums that you don't care that the credits awarded have fallen.
Am I wrong, or will there be some fix to at least bring the credits awarded to at least
bring them back up to their previous level?

And if you reply to me and not via the S@H forums, do I have your permission to
repeat your reply there?

And if you do care, I will post an apology and retraction of the post stating you don 't
care.


Awaiting answer.
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Grumpy Swede (Democratic Socialist)
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Message 1380073 - Posted: 11 Jun 2013, 23:56:56 UTC - in response to Message 1380044.  

It's very easy to vent about it on the forums here. Chances are very high that Dr. Anderson doesn't read it anyway. I've yet to see the first person post that he's emailed Dr. Anderson personally. I've yet to see someone post about it on the BOINC development email list.

All of the people flaming Dr. Anderson in this thread, when will you email him? Go on, see if he cares then.

http://www.setiusa.us/showthread.php?2415-BOINC-DA-admits-CreditNew-is-really-a-random-number-generator


And that's from almost 2 years ago, still nothing has happened.
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Message 1380086 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 0:43:08 UTC - in response to Message 1380047.  

It's very easy to vent about it on the forums here. Chances are very high that Dr. Anderson doesn't read it anyway. I've yet to see the first person post that he's emailed Dr. Anderson personally. I've yet to see someone post about it on the BOINC development email list.

All of the people flaming Dr. Anderson in this thread, when will you email him? Go on, see if he cares then.

http://www.setiusa.us/showthread.php?2415-BOINC-DA-admits-CreditNew-is-really-a-random-number-generator

LOL, I'd almost forgotten starting that thread. 18 months ago, even.

Richard, considering this statement from Beta, "...it appears (shockingly) that CreditNew is actually working correctly as far as the CPU apps are concerned." Has anyone considered part of the problem could be the much larger percentage of work being accomplished by GPUs today as compared to when CreditNew was implemented? A few years ago, the percentage of work being done by the CPUs was much larger than today. This could explain why the thought that results from the slower machines would 'correct' the situation is not working as expected. This is another reason I suspect more results from the slower devices is needed.
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Message 1380103 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 1:39:12 UTC

A few weeks ago Einstein released a new type of unit . It takes 10X longer to do . But unlike this project that poject respects it's users and has a system that rewards people and says thanks you now get 10X the f$^king credit . Those of you that have read my posts should no I walk the walk and talk the talk .

This project has been run like a joke .

Project going down 3 times a week bandwith at 12-20 kb which was not just a joke but more than that and now this .

Time is running out and so is my patients . In seti classic there was as many units being done as to day , and yet we have computers 500 times faster .

I am sorry to all the good people that have worked tirelessly to try to improve the amount of work this project does and to be rewarded with a credit system that is now hampering new users from joining is not good .

Thank you to the people that have done there best to make this project better .

The Lunatics team

As for those in there Ivory tower .......................

Welcome to the new world where you can contact important people in even higher towers .
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Message 1380127 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 4:50:00 UTC - in response to Message 1380072.  

It's very easy to vent about it on the forums here. Chances are very high that Dr. Anderson doesn't read it anyway. I've yet to see the first person post that he's emailed Dr. Anderson personally. I've yet to see someone post about it on the BOINC development email list.

All of the people flaming Dr. Anderson in this thread, when will you email him? Go on, see if he cares then.


Email to Dr. Anderson


Dear Dr. Anderson,

I don't know if you are aware of the discontent on the part of some Seti@Home
volunteers in regards to the precipitous decrease in credits being awarded to the
new work units being issued after the release of S@H Version 7. Personally I wouldn't
care if you gave out credits at all. I don't participate for the credits.

I do find the continuing whining over low credits somewhat tiresome though.

I have stated in the forums that you don't care that the credits awarded have fallen.
Am I wrong, or will there be some fix to at least bring the credits awarded to at least
bring them back up to their previous level?

And if you reply to me and not via the S@H forums, do I have your permission to
repeat your reply there?

And if you do care, I will post an apology and retraction of the post stating you don 't
care.


Awaiting answer.


I got a reply from Dr. Anderson.

I hereby retract my previous statement about him not caring.
While he didn't give me his express permission to reprint his
email, he did say that if he didn't care for the Seti@home
project he wouldn't have worked on it for the last 15 years
without pay (emphasis mine). Now where that leaves you folks
with your credit problems, I don't know because he didn't say.

But at least we know now that he is aware some people think there is
a problem.
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kittyman Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1380140 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 6:21:14 UTC - in response to Message 1380127.  

It's very easy to vent about it on the forums here. Chances are very high that Dr. Anderson doesn't read it anyway. I've yet to see the first person post that he's emailed Dr. Anderson personally. I've yet to see someone post about it on the BOINC development email list.

All of the people flaming Dr. Anderson in this thread, when will you email him? Go on, see if he cares then.


Email to Dr. Anderson


Dear Dr. Anderson,

I don't know if you are aware of the discontent on the part of some Seti@Home
volunteers in regards to the precipitous decrease in credits being awarded to the
new work units being issued after the release of S@H Version 7. Personally I wouldn't
care if you gave out credits at all. I don't participate for the credits.

I do find the continuing whining over low credits somewhat tiresome though.

I have stated in the forums that you don't care that the credits awarded have fallen.
Am I wrong, or will there be some fix to at least bring the credits awarded to at least
bring them back up to their previous level?

And if you reply to me and not via the S@H forums, do I have your permission to
repeat your reply there?

And if you do care, I will post an apology and retraction of the post stating you don 't
care.


Awaiting answer.


I got a reply from Dr. Anderson.

I hereby retract my previous statement about him not caring.
While he didn't give me his express permission to reprint his
email, he did say that if he didn't care for the Seti@home
project he wouldn't have worked on it for the last 15 years
without pay (emphasis mine). Now where that leaves you folks
with your credit problems, I don't know because he didn't say.

But at least we know now that he is aware some people think there is
a problem.

All I gotta say about that is the old adage that 'actions speak louder than words'.
In other words, I'll believe that he cares when I see that he has made some corrections and awarded credits start to return to previous levels.

Excuse me if I am hard to understand at times.......I've had a difficult few lives.

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tbret
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Message 1380143 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 6:28:47 UTC

Far out, man.

I'm trying to remember what my RAC was when I was crunching Classic SETI units on my Cyrix 120, the 486-33 and AMD 586s... for over ten years-worth of CPU time.

How did we used to keep score?

Anybody got any idea?

Anybody know how I can add that to my current points total?

IT'S IMPORTANT DANG IT !!!

If not, well... anybody got any Geritol?

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Message 1380146 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 6:42:40 UTC - in response to Message 1380143.  

Personally I can't see Dr. Anderson paying any more attention to this than he did 18 months ago when he 1st introduced CreditNew and everyone's RAC's plummetted back then as it is again now.

Cheers.
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Profile James Sotherden
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Message 1380148 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 6:47:37 UTC - in response to Message 1380143.  

Far out, man.

I'm trying to remember what my RAC was when I was crunching Classic SETI units on my Cyrix 120, the 486-33 and AMD 586s... for over ten years-worth of CPU time.

How did we used to keep score?

Anybody got any idea?

Anybody know how I can add that to my current points total?

IT'S IMPORTANT DANG IT !!!

If not, well... anybody got any Geritol?



It was done by work unit. I just found my certificate thanking me for my 1000th work unit from Jan 2002. Somewhere I have the paper work saying that I had just over 5000 classic work units done before they started the the cobblestone thing.

I really dont care what they give out for credit. Im here for the idea of looking for the Signal untill they pull the plug.

And for those who think the project is so bad, Why are you still here then?
[/quote]

Old James
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Message 1380152 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 6:55:50 UTC - in response to Message 1380148.  

Note: Data for last two days added and revised running average. Thankyou


I’ve had a look at the data around v7 and v6 WUs and below is a quick observational analysis of my data.

Under v6, I was roughly averaging 100 credits per Work Unit (WU).
Under v7, it seems that the average is sitting around 75-80 credits per WU.
In looking at run-times and taking the outliers out, cpu run time was around 600-660 seconds (10-11 minutes) per WU for v6, and appears to be around 800-1100 seconds (13+ to 18+ minutes) for a v7 WU. CPU time seems to have gone up by a factor of 2-3 from 50-60 seconds for v6 to 90-180 seconds for v7.

So doing a quick Back of the Envelope (10.5/15.83=0.66) shows that from a WU processing/throughput capability, I can expect to do roughly 66% of the volume of WUs that I did before (for example, if I was doing 400 WUs per day under v6, I can now expect to do around 264 WUs per day under v7).

Looking at the impact on credit gives 0.66*0.775 = 0.514 or 51.4%. In essence I can expect that daily credit for v7 will drop to circa 51% of what I was getting under v6.

I am aware of the comments around “that the system needs time to settle down” and that “it thinks all the WUs coming back at the moment are easy, hence the low credit” however, if the system continues to perform as is, then I can expect to see no change from current trajectory.

To test the assumption, I have looked at credit per day for the last 20 days. Below is the data:


[list=]
2013.05.16 – 244,130
2013.05.17 – 220,168
2013.05.18 – 231,098
2013.05.19 – 226,353
2013.05.20 – 224,723
2013.05.21 – 210,477
2013.05.22 - 0
2013.05.23 – 431,485
2013.05.24 – 229,312
2013.05.25 – 228,767
2013.05.26 – 239,021
2013.05.27 – 231,271
2013.05.28 – 231,050
2013.05.29 – 0
2013.05.30 – 392,635
2013.05.31 – 209,556
2013.06.01 – 123,072
2013.06.02 – 94,061
2013.06.03 – 102,333
2013.06.04 – 99,896
2013.06.05 - 65,653
2013.06.06 - 112,209
2013.06.07 - 102,538
2013.06.08 - 110,760
2013.06.09 - 89,757
2013.06.10 - 96,018
2013.06.11 - 111,653
2013.06.12 - 90,091

[/list]



The average daily credit prior to migration was 221,878. Following migration on 1st June, the average daily credit is showing as 99,836 which is circa 44.9% of the previous daily average under v6.

I suspect that many are starting to see their RAC decline, but as RAC is a lagging indicator and is currently composed of v6 and v7 numbers, the end effect is being masked. As this mask evaporates and RAC asymptotes towards the underlying v7 values, I suspect that the grumblings in the forum may get louder.



Comment on comments

Whilst some are focusing just on credit, the issue is not about credit as such. It’s about recognition.

There are many distributed computing projects to which people contribute resources. The manner and means in which those projects recognise individual contribution is through a system that is based on and allocates credits. Some projects choose to recognise a person’s contribution more than other projects, thus they grant a higher credit rate per contribution for that project. In short, credits are effectively an indication of a person’s contribution to a project.

In the case of "the New Credit System" implemented by Seti, recognition of personal contribution has been reduced. At present, the indication is that recognition for effort is effectively half that of what it was prior to the new recognition system being employed.
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Message 1380165 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 7:10:10 UTC - in response to Message 1380148.  

Far out, man.

I'm trying to remember what my RAC was when I was crunching Classic SETI units on my Cyrix 120, the 486-33 and AMD 586s... for over ten years-worth of CPU time.

How did we used to keep score?

Anybody got any idea?

Anybody know how I can add that to my current points total?

IT'S IMPORTANT DANG IT !!!

If not, well... anybody got any Geritol?



It was done by work unit. I just found my certificate thanking me for my 1000th work unit from Jan 2002. Somewhere I have the paper work saying that I had just over 5000 classic work units done before they started the the cobblestone thing.

I really dont care what they give out for credit. Im here for the idea of looking for the Signal untill they pull the plug.

And for those who think the project is so bad, Why are you still here then?

I don't think the project is so bad....LOL.
You all know why I am here.

And I have stated that I shall remain here doing what the kitties do best come hell or high water. You all know I will.

Credits to me were always kind of a 'reward' for sticking around and contributing time, money, and effort to participate.

There is a line in an old Fleetwood Mac song.....'you make loving fun'.
Well, credits kinda make crunching fun.

RAC was always a kind of barometer I used to monitor the performance of my crunching farm. What did that last upgrade do? Is that new app helping much? What did I gain by adding that extra card to rig xyz?

I am lost now. I don't have a hoot or a holler what the new apps have done for me. Or the last rig upgrade I did. Or the one I will probably do this weekend.

And THAT, although I am certainly here for the science, does take some of the 'fun' out of it for me.


Excuse me if I am hard to understand at times.......I've had a difficult few lives.

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Profile James Sotherden
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Message 1380168 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 7:13:14 UTC

And for the most part the other projects have dead forums. They cant even compete with Seti@home lively discussions.

And dont tell me they never have problems either, Ive seen Milkyway and Einstein down at the same time we have been down on more than one instance.

Screw RAC, Every one of us is in the same boat when it comes to RAC. You want to jump ship then do it.
[/quote]

Old James
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Message 1380177 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 7:36:28 UTC

Touting the Seti@home lively discussions and then telling people to jump ship because their discussions are too lively seems a bit irrational.

If you're feeling emotional about what is an intellectual endeavor a self time out may be in order.

Many here who criticise CreditNew do so in a rational manner with no taint of rancor.
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Message 1380181 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 7:47:38 UTC - in response to Message 1380177.  

Touting the Seti@home lively discussions and then telling people to jump ship because their discussions are too lively seems a bit irrational.

If you're feeling emotional about what is an intellectual endeavor a self time out may be in order.

Many here who criticise CreditNew do so in a rational manner with no taint of rancor.


Read the entire thread. See how many jokers actaully lambast the project and the Admins. If you want to leave beacuse of Credits then leave for the greener pastures. Im sure there is a project that will kiss your butt with sweet credit.

And many here, Do have rancor about credit new.
[/quote]

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Message 1380183 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 7:52:12 UTC - in response to Message 1380181.  
Last modified: 12 Jun 2013, 7:53:10 UTC

Read the entire thread. See how many jokers actaully lambast the project and the Admins. If you want to leave beacuse of Credits then leave for the greener pastures. Im sure there is a project that will kiss your butt with sweet credit.

And many here, Do have rancor about credit new.


Seeing as you're a mod can we assume that you speak for the Admins?
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Message 1380184 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 7:52:13 UTC - in response to Message 1380181.  

Touting the Seti@home lively discussions and then telling people to jump ship because their discussions are too lively seems a bit irrational.

If you're feeling emotional about what is an intellectual endeavor a self time out may be in order.

Many here who criticise CreditNew do so in a rational manner with no taint of rancor.


Read the entire thread. See how many jokers actaully lambast the project and the Admins. If you want to leave beacuse of Credits then leave for the greener pastures. Im sure there is a project that will kiss your butt with sweet credit.

And many here, Do have rancor about credit new.

And many are unhappy about it, but will stick around for the more valid reasons for doing so.
But are still not overjoyed about CreditScrewed's obvious failure to deal with a major change in the project in a timely manner.
Excuse me if I am hard to understand at times.......I've had a difficult few lives.

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Message 1380185 - Posted: 12 Jun 2013, 7:54:40 UTC - in response to Message 1380183.  

Read the entire thread. See how many jokers actaully lambast the project and the Admins. If you want to leave beacuse of Credits then leave for the greener pastures. Im sure there is a project that will kiss your butt with sweet credit.

And many here, Do have rancor about credit new.


Seeing as your a mod can we assume that you're speaking for the Admins?


No I speak for myself. And If you have a problem with my reposne, hit that red X and report me.
[/quote]

Old James
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