Windows8: The Beginning of The End? Or... Win9 v soon!?

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Message 1428448 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 13:20:53 UTC - in response to Message 1428445.  

Which is where we need a number of fairly competing options, as opposed to a continuing IE6-style stifling expensive fiasco of lock-down...

All just my own humble observation as always...



In what manner is it locked down? Word can even save a file in .odt. Isn't that an open source format?

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Message 1428449 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 13:24:42 UTC - in response to Message 1428448.  
Last modified: 14 Oct 2013, 13:26:19 UTC

Which is where we need a number of fairly competing options, as opposed to a continuing IE6-style stifling expensive fiasco of lock-down...

All just my own humble observation as always...



In what manner is it locked down? Word can even save a file in .odt. Isn't that an open source format?

That is only a very recent embellishment that Microsoft looks to have tried to sabotage many times over for a number of years now.

Note also that such an open format is NOT ENABLED by default... And how many users know anything of file formats? Or should they even care about such arcanery? And how many extra clicks are needed to use ".odt" open file formats in the Microsoft world?


Hence, Microsoft foists proprietary tricks to keep the Microsoft faithful expensively trapped in the faith...

All just my humble observations as always...

IT is what we allow it to become...
Martin
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Message 1428456 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 13:48:13 UTC - in response to Message 1428449.  

Which is where we need a number of fairly competing options, as opposed to a continuing IE6-style stifling expensive fiasco of lock-down...

All just my own humble observation as always...



In what manner is it locked down? Word can even save a file in .odt. Isn't that an open source format?

That is only a very recent embellishment that Microsoft looks to have tried to sabotage many times over for a number of years now. Only looks, so not confirmed then I take it?

Note also that such an open format is NOT ENABLED by default... And how many users know anything of file formats? Or should they even care about such arcanery? And how many extra clicks are needed to use ".odt" open file formats in the Microsoft world? Asides from the NIX geeks, how many NIX dumbos know of file formats? Just the one click btw


Hence, Microsoft foists proprietary tricks to keep the Microsoft faithful expensively trapped in the faith...

All just my humble observations as always...

IT is what we allow it to become...
Martin


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Message 1428474 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 14:42:32 UTC - in response to Message 1428456.  
Last modified: 14 Oct 2013, 14:56:59 UTC

... In what manner is it locked down? Word can even save a file in .odt. Isn't that an open source format?

That is only a very recent embellishment that Microsoft looks to have tried to sabotage many times over for a number of years now. Only looks, so not confirmed then I take it?

Note also that such an open format is NOT ENABLED by default... And how many users know anything of file formats? Or should they even care about such arcanery? And how many extra clicks are needed to use ".odt" open file formats in the Microsoft world? Asides from the NIX geeks, how many NIX dumbos know of file formats? Just the one click btw


Hence, Microsoft foists proprietary tricks to keep the Microsoft faithful expensively trapped in the faith...

All just my humble observations as always...

So... All non-Microsoft users are "dumbos"?... That's a very curious comment as a famous Alice would say...


So let's see how Microsoft has fared for office document file formats:


ISO Approval of OASIS OpenDocument Is a Blow to Microsoft

... This validates the OASIS technical committee's nearly four-year effort (led by Sun Microsystems, and including Adobe Systems and IBM) to develop an XML representation for document formats such as text files and spreadsheets. From the outset, we predicted that Microsoft would face greater competition if OASIS succeeded... Government agencies worldwide are increasingly seeking document format compatibility among users who don't have access to common applications, particularly Microsoft Office applications.

ODF opens up opportunities for new products — for example, users could create integrated "composite" documents using text, graphics or spreadsheet elements, without shifting between applications...



Microsoft: Differences between the OpenDocument Text (.odt) format and the Word (.docx) format

When you work with two file formats, like .docx and .odt, there might be formatting differences, and not all features will be available. You’ll be able to convert data and content, but the way you work with the content might be different...


Wikipedia: OpenDocument

The Open Document Format for Office Applications (ODF), also known as OpenDocument, is an XML-based file format for spreadsheets, charts, presentations and word processing documents. It was developed with the aim of providing an open, XML-based file format specification for office applications...

... The OpenDocument format is used in free software and in proprietary software. This includes office suites (both stand-alone and web-based) and individual applications such as word-processors...

... Microsoft first released support for the OpenDocument Format in Office 2007 SP2.[38] However, the implementation faced substantial criticism and the ODF Alliance and others claimed that the third party plugins provided better support...



Why is Microsoft Word complaining about Libre Office's .odt files being corrupt?

... In my experience, MS Word 2010 does, in fact, open .odt files, even though it gives two error messages first. If I send people an .odt document, I just ask them to ignore the error messages...


Microsoft Folks Rewrite ODF’s History and Build Anti-ODF Social Network

Microsoft’s attempts to shun ODF continue unabated...

Microsoft has become exceptionally transparent in its anti-ODF activity as of late. It’s not just technical fragmentation of ODF which Microsoft causes in order to reduce interoperability. It is actual out-in-the-open smearing...

... Why is Microsoft so afraid of ODF? And why does it still pretend to have befriended ODF? And if it claimed truthfully that “ODF ha[d] truly win”, then why does it spend so much time smearing it...



An ODF/OOXML File Format Timeline

... Bill Gates internal memo... 'allowing Office documents to be rendered well by other peoples software is one of the most destructive things we could do'...


Microsoft ODF support pledge met with optimism, skepticism

... "The Commission would welcome any step that Microsoft took towards genuine interoperability, more consumer choice and less vendor lock-in," the EC said in a statement issued today. "In its ongoing antitrust investigation concerning interoperability with Microsoft Office, the Commission will investigate whether the announced support of ODF (Open Document format) in Office leads to better interoperability and allows consumers to process and exchange their documents with the software product of their choice." ...


ODF Alliance finds serious shortcomings in Microsoft SP2

... “Support for ODF represents an important and ongoing test of Microsoft’s commitment to real-world interoperability,” said ODF Alliance managing director Marino Marcich. “Unfortunately, serious shortcomings have been identified in Microsoft’s support for ODF. Putting potentially millions of ODF files into circulation that are non-interoperable and incompatible with the ODF support provided by other vendors is a recipe for fragmentation.”...



Quite a story there... Sabotage? Or (deliberate?) incompetence? A fallback to the "old tricks" of killing off DRDOS?...

How MS played the incompatibility card against DR-DOS

... "You should make sure it has problems in the future."...

... The message generated if DR DOS was used with Windows 3.1 betas was: "Non-fatal error detected: Error number [varied]. Please contact Windows 3.1 beta support...



From my reading of the Microsoft "Knowledgebase", I'm flabbergasted by the audacity in there that implies that, because Microsoft Word documents look different when rendered from a Microsoft ".docx" and Microsoft translated ".odt", that it must be the rest of the world's use of ".odt" that must be somehow 'wrong'!


Phew! And people buy into that!?

IT is what we allow it to become...
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
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Message 1428481 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 14:55:54 UTC - in response to Message 1428472.  

Did you ever come across the version of MS that had two editions 'a' and 'c', where space above first line was suppressed in one edition but not the other. That made complete mess of formatting with para's overflowing to next page and tables were a complete mess if opened in the wrong edition. Then these errors were compounded because of the auto-save function.
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Message 1428484 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 15:00:40 UTC - in response to Message 1428474.  

It really is fascinating reading these comedy threads.

An O/S is just that an Operating system. As for apps, it's horses for courses.

When dealing with MS Users I use Word. When dealing with Nix Users I use Open Office. So what's the problem?

Modern hard drives are so large these days what's a little bit of space used?

Can't be bothered to switch applications? Then that's the attitude of a lazy git.

What I'm finding really funny is that this thread is supposed to be about Windows 8/Windows 9? What have we got instead, nix and Office and wine [personally I think that should be whine] whatever next?

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Message 1428485 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 15:04:06 UTC

I'm with Martin on this criticism of MS and file formats, because it not only applies to applies to word processing but to most other office applications.

You get people who only know MS products being critical of files that don't open correctly because MS has hi-jacked the file format and as usual either got it wrong or tried to put the MS stamp on it.

Just look at HTML standards and if you really want a headache try SQL.
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Message 1428494 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 15:29:49 UTC - in response to Message 1428447.  


So you also advocate for the clunky interface that is Word and the proprietary deliberately non-compatible file format that is a word file save?


Non-compatible? So Open Office cannot read or write to .doc files? Since when?

Now read the article again...

The format of the ".doc" file can readily be claimed to be deliberately obfuscated and structured to force all other programs to have to reimplement the Microsoft Word system just to read the file! All a brutal form of proprietary lock-in. Nasty stuff.

Last I checked Word has an export file format section ...

More BS from the head of the BS department ...

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Message 1428497 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 15:37:32 UTC - in response to Message 1428485.  

You get people who only know MS products being critical of files that don't open correctly because MS has hi-jacked the file format and as usual either got it wrong or tried to put the MS stamp on it.

How can MS hijack their own file format? Is that why you dolts don't get it?

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Message 1428500 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 15:46:48 UTC - in response to Message 1428487.  

Please read my rant.

I read it. What did you have, 512Mb of RAM? Oh, your IT forced you to leave fast save on. That will corrupt files as eventually pointers will outgrow a 24 bit space. As to those different printers, well DUH! Different printers have different drivers. Never mind dunce IT departments that don't make sure every computer in the place has the exact same set of fonts on it. Sorry, I've had to do pre-press work. Everything you are bitching about is even common in .pdf files, and .pdf was intended to get rid of those problems!

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Message 1428503 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 15:50:27 UTC - in response to Message 1428501.  

Chris, you bitch about the internal politics of your own place of employment. Do you expect a 2003 car and a 2007 car to look the same?

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Message 1428515 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 16:12:52 UTC - in response to Message 1428503.  

Chris, you bitch about the internal politics of your own place of employment. Do you expect a 2003 car and a 2007 car to look the same?

I don't, but i expect the steering wheel to be in front of the driver, the pedals to be in the same order, the radio in the middle of the facia, etc.
The rearrangement of menus in the new version of Word is like having to pick the gears from the glovebox which is now under the passenger seat, there being one pedal which i have to choose whether it's the brake, throttle or clutch using a slider on the ceiling, the handbrake being engaged from a pull out drawer with the heater and rev counter also in it, etc.
People get used to what order things are in and where to find them, fiddling with that is bound to cause resentment.
Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.
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Message 1428522 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 16:29:03 UTC - in response to Message 1428497.  

You get people who only know MS products being critical of files that don't open correctly because MS has hi-jacked the file format and as usual either got it wrong or tried to put the MS stamp on it.

How can MS hijack their own file format? Is that why you dolts don't get it?

File formats like HTML and SQL do not belong to MS.
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Message 1428532 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 16:38:30 UTC - in response to Message 1428522.  

You get people who only know MS products being critical of files that don't open correctly because MS has hi-jacked the file format and as usual either got it wrong or tried to put the MS stamp on it.

How can MS hijack their own file format? Is that why you dolts don't get it?

File formats like HTML and SQL do not belong to MS.

We were discussing .doc and .docx not .html or .sql please try to keep up.

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Message 1428538 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 16:43:17 UTC - in response to Message 1428532.  

You get people who only know MS products being critical of files that don't open correctly because MS has hi-jacked the file format and as usual either got it wrong or tried to put the MS stamp on it.

How can MS hijack their own file format? Is that why you dolts don't get it?

File formats like HTML and SQL do not belong to MS.

We were discussing .doc and .docx not .html or .sql please try to keep up.

Even their doc format at one time was RTF.
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Message 1428552 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 17:09:32 UTC - in response to Message 1428538.  

You get people who only know MS products being critical of files that don't open correctly because MS has hi-jacked the file format and as usual either got it wrong or tried to put the MS stamp on it.

How can MS hijack their own file format? Is that why you dolts don't get it?

File formats like HTML and SQL do not belong to MS.

We were discussing .doc and .docx not .html or .sql please try to keep up.

Even their doc format at one time was RTF.

Rich Text Format is something else.

.doc first was for WordPerfect.

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Message 1428564 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 17:37:36 UTC - in response to Message 1428544.  

Not to mention my experience as a user.

Which is where you wrote your rant from.

If you had ever done programming you wouldn't have written it and implicitly understood requirements changes [the marketing department] over three decades make mincemeat of designs. Everyone got whacked with Y2K and had to do rewrites, but they knew that one was coming.

So in 198X you wrote the file format. Back then you know there might be some features added. You put in a one byte flag (256) for the new features. The world had 16 bit processors with 16 bit registers so your design reflected that. Today is it 201X and Marketing has put in 1025 new features the world uses 64 bit processors with 64 bit registers, but marketing insists you can't change the file format because it must be backwards compatible. Exactly the same as the Y2K bug.

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