I also have an Intell Mac. I dont see any mac users putting another OS on them. To me, Thats like buying a Gillette razor and putting Schick blades in it.

I have to ask why dont the other builders of Pc's put Linux on them? Because maybe they would not sell?

Windows has a lot of faults, ease of use is not one of them.

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[/quote]

Old James

At least in Italy you can buy a PC without any OS on it. Then you can load on it the OS of your choice. BIOS so far has allowed it.
Tullio

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I also have an Intell Mac. I dont see any mac users putting another OS on them.

Well, some people do and to very good effect. I believe Apple were 'persuaded' that it was legally a good thing to allow people their freedom to use their own hardware as they wished.

To me, Thats like buying a Gillette razor and putting Schick blades in it.

Some people might wish to. As a freedom loving American, do you have the right to deny them their freedom?

I have to ask why dont the other builders of Pc's put Linux on them? Because maybe they would not sell?

Some do. Some make a very good business out of that. Microsoft have even variously posted in their financial returns that Linux is a significant competitor to the Microsoft business.

Why Linux systems have not come into wider use on home desktops is a very interesting question... Especially so considering how Linux has stolen the show across so many of the other areas of computing.

To avoid the dangers of monopolistic effects (even of a benign monopoly), we really need two or more additional independent systems to keep the world healthily balanced.

Windows has a lot of faults, ease of use is not one of them.

For the people I help with Windows, they would strongly disagree on that one! I've even been on 'suicide watch' a couple of times to convince the users not to throw their innocent equipment out of the window! (I half failed on one occasion... Although the PC stayed safely switched off on the floor, everything else on the desk went out the window, from 6 floors up.)

Many people already use Linux systems, often so easily that sometimes they are completely unaware that they are using Linux.


Note that Microsoft do not design nor make the components for PCs, however they can apply a certain "business pressure" upon PC manufacturers and distributors...

I am fully in favour of positive innovation. I am very much against restrictive practices and vandalism.

In the American "Land of the Free", can you condone the monopolistic practices of one company to forcibly deny everyone's free choice?


IT is what we make it!
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Just curious..

Is there a Linux distro which usage is like a Windows OS?

I mean, you use the mouse and you can do the most or all work.

Or with all currently available Linux distros you would need to use a tool for to install the opti apps, with paths and commands.. and so on?

If, why the Linux people didn't made such a 'mouse only' distro to now?
If this would be available soon, in ~ 5 years ~ 95 % of all PCs have Linux OS.. ;-)

And the Microsoft stocks will fall like a stone.. ;-D


- Best regards! - Sutaru Tsureku, team seti.international founder. - Optimize your PC for higher RAC. - SETI@home needs your help. -

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I have installed all SETI@home optimized apps by Lunatics on my SuSE Linux 11.1 using only the mouse. But I have also installed a BOINC client and a SETI@home app by Dotsch on my Solaris guest OS using the command line method. You learn more using shell scripts than using the mouse.
Tullio

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I have installed all SETI@home optimized apps by Lunatics on my SuSE Linux 11.1 using only the mouse. But I have also installed a BOINC client and a SETI@home app by Dotsch on my Solaris guest OS using the command line method. You learn more using shell scripts than using the mouse.
Tullio

Agreed, but what use would that be to an average Windows user, who will extect it to just install, with no interest in or knowlage of the command line or shell scripts, and no intention of finding out about them.
If Linux bit the bullet and rid itself of it`s geeky enthusiast image by designing a user friendly OS, MS better look out. I hope.

Best regards,
Andy

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Just curious..

Is there a Linux distro which usage is like a Windows OS?

I mean, you use the mouse and you can do the most or all work.

Or with all currently available Linux distros you would need to use a tool for to install the opti apps, with paths and commands.. and so on?

If, why the Linux people didn't made such a 'mouse only' distro to now?
If this would be available soon, in ~ 5 years ~ 95 % of all PCs have Linux OS.. ;-)

And the Microsoft stocks will fall like a stone.. ;-D

Yes, there is a good choice of Linux distros that are "mouse only". You can see various screenshots...

At the moment, there is no "graphical unified installer" for the Lunatics optimised apps for s@h. However, the main Linux distros can install Boinc with just one or two mouse clicks.


Perhaps that is why Microsoft is trying to persuade PC manufacturers to add cripple-ware to ban "other OSes" from PCs?

IT is all a question of YOUR freedoms...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Ok here is a question. Lets say that Microsoft finally says, Weve had enough of the spyware, viruses and other garbage that infects our OS. We now introduce Windows(fantasy), Its totaly secure like a Mac OS. So what happens to Linux?
Now they have Nothing to piggyback on. I agree with the poster above. Make it simple and easy to use and windows will be busted.

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[/quote]

Old James

Ok, look at it this way. YOUR grandma has been persuaded to buy a pc by aunty Ethel. Grandma knows you are a bit of a geek, and comes to you for advice.(We have all been there, right?)
You run Linux on your boxes. Which OS would you recommend to grandma? Linux or Windows?

If Linux could pass the Grandma Test, Windows would be in serious doo-doo.

Kind Regards,
Andy

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If Linux could pass the Grandma Test, Windows would be in serious doo-doo.

Well... Ubuntu has easily passed the "Grandma Test" for a growing number of examples I've instigated across the UK. The only hiccup has been to explain that the "Firefox" icon 'means' "The Internet". (I'll admit to renaming that one for some, to "Internet - Firefox".)


So... Is all this more a question of Monopolistic practices and Marketing?...

And now there are the Google Chrome devices...


IT is what we make it,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Ubuntu has easily passed the "Grandma Test" for a growing number of examples I've instigated across the UK.

Dont get me wrong, I am Linux Positive.In an Ideal World.....etc.

So... Is all this more a question of Monopolistic practices and Marketing?

Yes.

Ps,
How long have you been instigating grannies? ;-)
Best Regards,
Andy

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How long have you been instigating grannies? ;-)

Soon after an Ubuntu Linux install was faster than a MS-anti-virus scan!

Cheers,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Soon after an Ubuntu Linux install was faster than a MS-anti-virus scan!


Good call!

Best regards,

Andy

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Now this does get nasty!


Windows 8 secure boot would 'exclude' Linux

Microsoft wants to keep the keys inside

... proposed changes in firmware specifications may make it impossible to run “unauthorised” operating systems such as Linux and FreeBSD on PCs. ...


What has Microsoft got to fear?... Is this a rerun of Microsoft's "Palladium" and supposed "Trusted Computing" euphemism?...

Well, Microsoft has got quickly defensive on that one with some distraction, FUD, and most suspiciously, no unambiguous denials...


Microsoft explains Windows 8 boot to quell Linux fears

Microsoft has become locked in a dispute over whether the boot process in Windows 8 will block Linux from running on hardware designed for the next version of its flagship platform. ...

... "Microsoft's rebuttal is entirely factually accurate. But it's also misleading," Garrett said. "The truth is that Microsoft's move removes control from the end user and places it in the hands of Microsoft and the hardware vendors. The truth is that it makes it more difficult to run anything other than Windows."


Will Windows 8 PCs Shut the Door on Linux?

... It turns out that a new feature included in the operating system in the name of security may also effectively make it impossible to load Linux on officially Windows 8-certified hardware. ...

... Microsoft has said it will require that Windows 8 logo machines ship with secure boot enabled. Most likely, Windows on such systems will be signed with a Microsoft key ...


MS denies secure boot will exclude Linux

... "The extension of Microsoft’s OS monopoly to hardware would be a disaster, with increased lock-in, decreased consumer choice and lack of space to innovate," he said. Anderson concludes that the approach is even worse than previous attempts to force feed Windows users with DRM technology.

In a blog post on Thursday, Microsoft attempted to address these concerns arguing that "complete control over the PC continues to be available" to consumers. ...


Some of the article comments that sum all that lot up:

This whole situation is complete rubbish, as usual. Microsoft's excuse of: "Ultimately, the protocol is designed to make the computer safer from pre-OS boot attacks or malware." doesn't cut it. When was the last time we've seen any sort of pre-OS boot attack? Most if not all of the malware is within Windows itself. However, with all this said, in the end I'm sure a workaround will be found so that dual booting will be possible with non-Microsoft operating systems. It's unfortunate that Microsoft has such a large hand in the market. It continues to allow them to make moves like this, that in my opinion hurt the consumers time and time again.

And, Garrett's statement: "The truth is that Microsoft's move removes control from the end user and places it in the hands of Microsoft and the hardware vendors. The truth is that it makes it more difficult to run anything other than Windows." is spot on. UEFI gives Microsoft and the PC vendors more control over your PC, plain and simple.

Every time I read articles with news like this, I am even happier that I've migrated away from Microsoft's garbage software. It makes GNU/Linux even more free (as in freedom) than ever.

"If OEMs want to"?

Really? Just like OEMs can ship with any OS thy want, assuming they also want to swallow inflated license costs.

Just like OEMs don't have to "recommend" any particular OS, if they want to swallow inflated license costs.

I would not trust MS in this matter, they are far from impartial and have too long a history of attacking GNU/Linux and F/LOSS in general. If they need to solve this issue, then I suggest two courses of action:

1) Write an OS that does not leap on to the Interwebs and scream "I am open, have at me like a cheap tart! I'll take all comers in any port!"

2) Let OEMs sell a "bolt on" to people who need this kind of control (certain corporates, certified environments etc).

Microsoft - please stop controlling and start competing.

um...am I missing something?

Isn't this just the moving of WGA into the BIOS?

Wrong conspiracy

This might not be MS trying to scupper the use of alternative OSs, although that could be a usefull side-effect. More likely, MS want to ensure that Windows users upgrade when MS tells them to, so that Windows 8 doesn't suffer the fate of Vista, i.e. people buy a shiny new PC then install XP.

This de facto attempt at limiting my use of hardware I bought is offensive and ought to be made illegal!

If only the Windows users knew the full story...

IT is what we make it!
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... Microsoft has said it will require that Windows 8 logo machines ship with secure boot enabled. ...

I wonder if this is one of the reasons:

... My organization went from 100% XP to 90%+ GNU/Linux in the last year and we did not buy a single machine with GNU/Linux installed because the cast-offs that can no longer run that other OS work so well with GNU/Linux. Basically our PCs cost us only their shipping. Since about half the world's machines now run XP, there is a huge pool of machines waiting to be installed of GNU/Linux. ...

If only the Windows users knew the full story...

IT is what we make it!
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... Microsoft has said it will require that Windows 8 logo machines ship with secure boot enabled.

Does that mean it can be DISabled ?? If it's a simple BIOS setting, no problem.

If it's not - someone will have a hack for it within 15 minutes of release, I suppose...

Lt

... Microsoft has said it will require that Windows 8 logo machines ship with secure boot enabled.

Does that mean it can be DISabled ?? If it's a simple BIOS setting, no problem.

If it's not - someone will have a hack for it within 15 minutes of release, I suppose...

It's a piece of hardware/firmware, not a BIOS as we know it.

My interpretation is that it could enforce the sort of lock-down as is already done to lock down various games consoles...

Next could be a "EULA" insisting that you haven't actually 'bought' your own hardware...


IT is what we make it!
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The kind of lock in that MS are putting together this time makes buying a second hand motherboard or system from the likes of ebay a tricky situation,
If the intention of the buyer was to put an `alternative` or `old` OS on the system and when it arrives finds it will not boot because MS decrees the it is the wrong kind of OS for its motherboard.
Before long if this kind of thing gets out of hand will we be able to buy a board or will we only rent them for a period of time set by MS before it is time expired and has to be dumped.
Though i dont think board manufactures will abandon the `home build` market there is to much money in it,
this will, as it says only affect pre built systems with M$ installed.
For now . . . .

The kind of lock in that MS are putting together this time makes buying a second hand motherboard or system from the likes of ebay a tricky situation,
If the intention of the buyer was to put an `alternative` or `old` OS on the system and when it arrives finds it will not boot because MS decrees the it is the wrong kind of OS for its motherboard.
Before long if this kind of thing gets out of hand will we be able to buy a board or will we only rent them for a period of time set by MS before it is time expired and has to be dumped. ...

Reading a brief summary, the consequences may be worse than that...

UEFI secure booting (part 2)

* Windows 8 certification requires that hardware ship with UEFI secure boot enabled.
* Windows 8 certification does not require that the user be able to disable UEFI secure boot, and we've already been informed by hardware vendors that some hardware will not have this option. ...

Why is this a problem? Because there's no central certification authority for UEFI signing keys. Microsoft can require that hardware vendors include their keys. Their competition can't. ...

What does this mean for the end user? Microsoft claim that the customer is in control of their PC. That's true, if by "customer" they mean "hardware manufacturer". The end user is not guaranteed the ability to install extra signing keys in order to securely boot the operating system of their choice. The end user is not guaranteed the ability to disable this functionality. The end user is not guaranteed that their system will include the signing keys that would be required for them to swap their graphics card for one from another vendor, or replace their network card and still be able to netboot, or install a newer SATA controller and have it recognise their hard drive in the firmware. The end user is no longer in control of their PC. ...


So some hardware will NOT have the option to disable the "Microsoft secure booting"... Looks like the Microsoft "Palladium", "Trusted Computing" and "Windows Genuine Advantage" (don't ya love the clever naming!) take #2 all on steroids!


The question is whether Microsoft can get away with all that for their Windows 8 roll-out.

The end of computing as we know it?

I just can't help but wonder how all that can not be construed to be anti-competitive? I feel it is a direct attack on our computing freedoms...


Note that IT is what we make it,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

As a system builder, I've already got round that. Whether or not MS will let system builders continue to get around it is another question.......

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