What you don't believe in are genies.

Excellent description tbret, and very correct.
We're here, we're on our own and we'd better get used to it.

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I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.

the first ammendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

various Supreme Court rulings have held that the first ammendment doesn't rule out religion, it also holds "freedom from religion".

which i think applies to Roberts reasoning.

"...or abridging the freedom of speech,..."
also supports Robert in his right to say what he thinks
without persecution.

He hasn't been persecuted here.
However, he claims to have only addressed this 1, 2, maybe 3 times on these boards over the past few years? Yeah, right!
And what most people have told him in this thread is, he hasn't added a darn thing to the discussion.
Look elsewhere on these board, and you'll see where I defend a person's right to believe. And I'll also defend a person's right to believe they believe nothing.

However, he claims to have only addressed this 1, 2, maybe 3 times on these boards over the past few years? Yeah, right!

Thus, it is for this reason that I strongly suggest that atheism, in the case of Robert Waite, is dogma. He's not asking questions. He's at the same place he's been, for 3 or 4 years, if not more. THAT is what dogma IS! Do not question what Robert has to say? Hmmm. OK, thanks for the contradiction, Robert Waite. I'll wait until you clear it up. I hope it's not too heavy a weight on your heart and mind.

Do not question what Robert has to say? Hmmm. OK, thanks for the contradiction, Robert Waite. I'll wait until you clear it up. I hope it's not too heavy a weight on your heart and mind.

Stop twisting words Sarge.
No one says you can't question my position. I put it out there and you are free to question away.

I can get through any of my heaviness of heart and mind without the imagined help of some creation of the superstitious minds living in caves thousands of years ago.

My original point was to question why believers in the Skyman still feel the need to seek solutions for their ailments from more Earthly sources.
One, in particular, seeks prayers and mercy when personal wants are to be fulfilled but offers nothing by way of mercy or humanity when it concerns others who may or may not be members of other ethnic groups.

You seem quite stirred up for a 'thinking agnostic' over the contents of this thread.

---

I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.

My original point was to question why believers in the Skyman still feel the need to seek solutions for their ailments from more Earthly sources.
One, in particular, seeks prayers and mercy when personal wants are to be fulfilled but offers nothing by way of mercy or humanity when it concerns others who may or may not be members of other ethnic groups.

You seem quite stirred up for a 'thinking agnostic' over the contents of this thread.

Far from it.
You make me laugh.
I will listen to some liberals. (I also listen to some conservatives. It's called equal time, something Big L likes to spout but doesn't understand.)
I will listen to some atheists.
You tend to make terrible cases for what you bring up.
Case in point, you have brought up the above "beliefs" before (more than 1, 2, or 3 times in the past 3-4 years or so), and ignore the examples contrary to the argument you wish to make. Some of the simplest recent examples would be the responses of some churches to recent natural disasters. Lest you argue, thinking I am referring to responses to the multiple tornadoes across the south of the U.S., no, I refer to responses to the Haiti earthquake. (With a bit of cringing over the scene over a certain group removing some children from the country without, IIRC, following proper procedures.)
Look up a video on youtube regarding atheism, religion and dogma. While you will think much of it supports your views, I ask you and all reading, are you guilty of dogmatically overgeneralizing? Irrationality?
If anything is working me up, it's that you're a terrible proponent for your beliefs. I would much rather hear from someone who's not stuck at the same point (s)he was years ago and can actually really back up what (s)he's saying rather than simply quoting negative ideas about religion and spirituality they've heard from someone else.

If anything is working me up, it's that you're a terrible proponent for your beliefs.

Now it's your turn to make me laugh.
I'm the only proponent for my own beliefs in the entire universe buddy.
No one else is me and no one else can speak for me.

You seem intimidated by the fact I have reached such a conclusion regarding religion.
You do realize that if the Skyman exists, you get to do time on the nonbeliever rack in hell too. There's no room for "thinking agnostics" in the christian world view either. LOL

Of course, all of this will pass when you've changed your mind again, if for no other reason than to not be dogmatic. (more laughter)

---

I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.

Now it's your turn to make me laugh.
I'm the only proponent for my own beliefs in the entire universe buddy.
No one else is me and no one else can speak for me.

Hee hee hee, except I've heard you before, even when it wasn't you. "Buuudddy."
Or, are you going to suggest that evolution has resulted in you, something so unique, that your thought patterns are completely different from that of other humans?
I wonder what Darwin would say about that, considering he did such a good job at illuminating homologous structures within bodies? What about mind? Can it be that all humans must share common ground cognitively?

You seem intimidated by the fact I have reached such a conclusion regarding religion.

Hardly. But take comfort in your belief that you intimidate me.

You do realize that if the Skyman exists, you get to do time on the nonbeliever rack in hell too. There's no room for "thinking agnostics" in the christian world view either. LOL

Ooooh, wow, I never thought of that NOT!!!

Of course, all of this will pass when you've changed your mind again, if for no other reason than to not be dogmatic. (more laughter)

Dream on! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6Qd9VR1gD8
Get some rest. It's 9:29 in B.C. Tomorrow, think about how to become convincing.
Hint: it's not in ignoring the very valid point I raised regarding Haiti. Nice try, slipping past it and instead pretending that you intimidate me.

I've been confused as to why a self proclaimed agnostic fence sitter would be getting so whipped up over someone stating a disbelief in all things religious.

The only answer that comes to mind is political.
The rightists have created an alliance between the corporatists and the religious right in America (it's developing here in Canada too) and they need that well indoctrinated voting block to keep on supporting them.
Without the religious vote, the right would sink into the oblivion it so rightly deserves.

---

I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.

---

Janice

are you going to suggest that evolution has resulted in you, something so unique, that your thought patterns are completely different from that of other humans?

I'm here to tell ya that my thought patterns certainly differ from yours.
Why is it difficult for you to understand that I am the only "me" in the universe?
The same is true of yourself. Does anyone speak for you in all matters?
Are you not unique in whatever it is that makes you self aware?

---

I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.

You are a unique individual. Just like everyone else.

---

Janice

Wow. Just ... wow.
Well, while my students take their final exam in Statistics, where they have to back up their claims, I can say actually we do agree on at least one thing: teachers are NOT paid too much.
And if that doesn't make you think, you really have no idea where I stand, haven't read with any depth any of my thousands of posts, etc. ... . Your claim that I am politically threatened by your atheism ... so far off base. Pay attention.

i do believe that 'Prayer' has a beneficial role in one's life.
i liken it to meditation, repeating a Mantra, a Chant, a Prayer.
It calms the mind, and thus the body, bringing about a restorative effect.

As for the larger question, of 'Whether Prayer affects future Outcomes?',
well the jury is still out on that one.

i would have to say that there is no evidence, that personal, or even collective
prayer could even remotely affect the outcome of quantum events, let alone
gross physical manifestations.

To believe that prayer could petition the 'LORD' , and that all your Prayers could
be answered, is to also NEED to believe that the 'Devil' is Real, and the cause
of all that causes pain. Without a powerful devil one would have to take on all
the guilt of sin onto one's self. And thus the 'Myth' grows.

If you find that prayer works for 'You' then might i suggest some inquiry into
meditation practices, chanting, or maybe Tai-Chi, all organic trains of thought
that lead consciousness/organism to greater balance with it's surroundings.
i've never felt better than when i would go for a run on a regular basis.
i did like being an endorphin junkie.

I'm an atheïst, but anyone is free to believe in a 'GOD' or not, we do still live in a
'free part' of this, rapidly changing, World.

And Prayer is, or can be viewed as, a kind of meditation, I think and who am I, to judge about another way of thinking and doing, which I do or do not like?
(Too many wars started out, this way!)

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[I think and who am I, to judge about another way of thinking and doing, which I do or do not like?
(Too many wars started out, this way!)

Which is exactly why having more communication is so important. The personal attacks do nothing to help the situation, regardless if you think the person hasn't "grown" in the past 3 or 4 years. It just means they haven't grown toward your views favorably. Everyone has a right to dislike something and vocalize that dislike without being attacked personally.

I'm here to tell ya that my thought patterns certainly differ from yours.

Then clearly you must be sent to a "re-education camp" until this madness of yours passes and you do think just like everyone else. Drink deeply on the blessed koolaid, it is the elixir of life. :)

---

[I think and who am I, to judge about another way of thinking and doing, which I do or do not like?
(Too many wars started out, this way!)

Which is exactly why having more communication is so important. The personal attacks do nothing to help the situation, regardless if you think the person hasn't "grown" in the past 3 or 4 years. It just means they haven't grown toward your views favorably. Everyone has a right to dislike something and vocalize that dislike without being attacked personally.

Robert has a long history on these boards of weak arguments and, more importantly, to refer to your post, of personal attacks.
It has little to nothing to do with what my beliefs may be, and it certainly has nothing to do with "growing more favorably towards mine."
Go read some of the "Religious Threads" here from 3-4 years ago. Except for my finally losing it in my frustration with a poster "Chuck," you'll see many posts where I defend people's right to have some sort of faith, I defend the *choice* to be atheist (being raised atheist ultimately makes it no better than being raised religious/spiritual, in the sense that one has already been indoctrinated into a way of thinking) and I welcome *reasonable* questions. In the end, a few months after the blow up with Chuck, he and I reached *some* sort of understanding-particularly his right to ask the reasonable questions he did, and to not be moderated based on a moderator's religious and political beliefs. Of course, if Chuck's reading this now, he's probably scratching at my head at me still calling myself agnostic. Oh, well.
Often, Robert just seems like the liberal anti-Darwin's worm, and so skildude's post earlier in this thread can be equally applied to both of them.

Robert has a long history on these boards of weak arguments and, more importantly, to refer to your post, of personal attacks.

[snip]

Often, Robert just seems like the liberal anti-Darwin's worm, and so skildude's post earlier in this thread can be equally applied to both of them.

So then why bother responding at all? Not that I don't support your right to Free Speech.

Robert has a long history on these boards of weak arguments and, more importantly, to refer to your post, of personal attacks.

[snip]

Often, Robert just seems like the liberal anti-Darwin's worm, and so skildude's post earlier in this thread can be equally applied to both of them.

So then why bother responding at all? Not that I don't support your right to Free Speech.

I usually do not respond to most of Robert's posts. Every once in a while, though, he needs to be called on things.

I remember reading somewhere that religious zealots and atheists are just opposite sides of the same coin i.e. both are capable of a belief based only on faith without any firm proof to back that belief.

Of course with an atheist, the unproved belief is that God does NOT exist. However this is still a belief or act of (anti)faith because they have no more proof to back them up than the zealot.

I also believe that Robert is confusing the issue of whether or not God exists with "big R" religion. These are often two totally different things.

If someone truly believes prayer does work, why do they still go to a surgeon?

Because god helps those who help themselves

T.A.

Are the followers of the Skyman offended that I also don't believe in Zeus or Neptune?
I don't believe that the sun and moon are gods either, even though, at one time in human history I would be put to death for expressing any of this. (another reason to be weary the true believers)

How is the invisible man in the sky any different from these other examples?
All sorts of powers were attributed to them too.

The fact remains that praying to nothing brings nothing. None of these gods ever answered a prayer and any seeming result from prayer is statistically accountable.

---

I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.