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The Simple Math of CO2 Reduction
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21253 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Ignoring global warming and climate change, just look at one of the other costs of not going greener: MPs slam UK's record on the "invisible killer" Health problems caused by poor air quality in parts of the UK are worsening, yet the government has failed to introduce reforms, say MPs. 4,000 people died in 2008 as a result of air pollution in London alone; 30,000 died across the UK as a whole. ... costing [UK] society up to £20 billion per year. I dread to think what the numbers are for the US, China, India, and Indonesia! Still our only one planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21253 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Ignoring global warming and climate change, just look at one of the other costs of not going greener: And a costly temporary partial fix of the symptoms: Boris Johnson sticks by gluing pollution to roads It sounds like the sort of idea he might have come up with on the satirical TV shows he frequented before becoming London Mayor. But Boris Johnson is serious about gluing pollution to roads. For the past few months a fleet of specially adapted gritting lorries has been spraying... I dread to think what the numbers are for the US, China, India, and Indonesia! And I dread to think what the 'political' solution will be for the ever rising industrial CO2 pollution... Still our only one planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
Can you tell me the names of the 4000 who died of air pollution ?? |
John Clark Send message Joined: 29 Sep 99 Posts: 16515 Credit: 4,418,829 RAC: 0 |
And I dread to think what the 'political' solution will be for the ever rising industrial CO2 pollution... Does that mean your physical contribution to CO2 production is to be counted? It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21253 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Can you tell me the names of the 4000 who died of air pollution ?? That just must be the ultimate in denialism... Is that really the best you can do? Note how you have never given ANY plausible explanation or evidence that we can pollute our planet with impunity. For a glib answer for you, take a tour of the hospitals around Beijing. I'm sure you'll find many more examples (people) than just 4000 there... Their age expectancy is?... Regards, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21253 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
And I dread to think what the 'political' solution will be for the ever rising industrial CO2 pollution... Can be. You'll find that to be insignificant compared to the industrial output. Hell... The output of volcanoes is insignificant compared to our industrial output of CO2 and the knock-on consequences of that. But then, I know you don't have any sensible or practical answers... Regards, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
No one said we can pollute the planet with impunity. The issue is why you think CO-2 is a "pollution" to be concerned about. Every time I flush my toilet I pollute the Earth. Every time I drive to work I pollute the Earth. 40,000 people are killed in the US every year in traffic accidents. Should we ban automobiles and stop breathing? Since we have to live on our only planet, shouldn't we be more concerned with the pollution that is egregiously harmful and can be controlled in a rational manner. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21253 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
No one said we can pollute the planet with impunity. The issue is why you think CO-2 is a "pollution" to be concerned about. You seem to ignore the measured increase in the concentration of CO2 in our atmosphere, and that the increase is large and significant. You ignore that CO2 directly influences the temperature of our planet. Every time I flush my toilet I pollute the Earth. Every time I drive to work I pollute the Earth. That is hopefully treated so that it can all be recycled. Where that is not the case, that is also a problem, as I'm sure you're aware. 40,000 people are killed in the US every year in traffic accidents. Should we ban automobiles and stop breathing? That's a facetious argument but it might help even if not acceptable/practical. Since we have to live on our only planet, shouldn't we be more concerned with the pollution that is egregiously harmful and can be controlled in a rational manner. Yes. There is the full range of industrial and farming environmental problems. Even so, CO2 pollution is well on the way to being the most significant influence on all life on earth... Still our only planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Iona Send message Joined: 12 Jul 07 Posts: 790 Credit: 22,438,118 RAC: 0 |
So, what is the difference between a 'dust-cart' and a bus? Answer. One is subject to engine emmissions testing, whilst the other is free to ply it's trade and pump out any amount of 'crap' into the atmosphere! Should we therefore remove all buses from the roads in the UK? Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive! |
Nick Send message Joined: 11 Oct 11 Posts: 4344 Credit: 3,313,107 RAC: 0 |
Hell... The output of volcanoes is insignificant compared to our industrial output of CO2 and the knock-on consequences of that. When Tambora erupted in 1815 the Rev James Little (1820) remarked on it's sudden effects upon global climate. Constable noted this too in the deep reddening seen during sunsets, so vividly depicted in some of his brilliant paintings. The European commission has issued a study paper on global warming and a part of their findings has been omitted from the final edit. The part omitted covered the last 15 years of mean global temperatures and for some reason they wish this finding not to be generally known?? If one can't be told the true facts how can one then be able to draw the right conclusions, well, you can't. What were the facts left out from the Commissions report? Well, I say because of the amount of miss-information spread around by both sides of the global warming argument then it would be best that you do your own research and find this answer for yourselves. The Kite Fliers -------------------- Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes. |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
Do we even know that the Earth is warming? If so how do we know and what are the references and the data. What is the definition ? If the North Pole ice is melting due to tilt of the axis and the Southpole is piling on record amounts of ice, do we say the earth is warming. If we agree that it is "Warming" then why do we ascribe it to a harmless gas that exists in miniscule proportion in the atmosphere. I would want to look at. Sun's output impinging on Earth. Cloud cover variation Water Vapor Dust storms Axis tilt Chaos theory (random weather cycles) After we rule these out then we can look to other less likely "causes" Correlation does not necessarily mean causation. Should I imply that the fact that people are now living longer to higher CO-2 concentrations. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31015 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Do we even know that the Earth is warming? If so how do we know and what are the references and the data. What is the definition ? If the North Pole ice is melting due to tilt of the axis and the Southpole is piling on record amounts of ice, do we say the earth is warming. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArXiv is your friend. Do your searches. Read the papers. Do your homework. It is all there. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21253 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Do we even know that the Earth is warming? If so how do we know and what are the references and the data. What is the definition ? If the North Pole ice is melting due to tilt of the axis and the Southpole is piling on record amounts of ice, do we say the earth is warming. That "harmless gas that exists in miniscule(sic) proportion in the atmosphere" is vital for giving us such a benign temperature for our planet. That is also why rapidly changing the amount of that gas in our atmosphere has anyone that knows about it, extremely concerned. It's a bit like having a mad hatter's tea party on a freight line whilst those that look can see the freight train nearby bearing down upon everyone at high speed, ever closer, ever faster. I would want to look at. All already closely looked at. The first "hypothesis" was published well over 100 years ago. The first simulations to quantify the concerns were run in the 1960's (President Nixon). All the simulations and measurements since continue to confirm the unfolding scenario. The only arguments are merely over the fine detail and for exactly when we 'break' the present weather patterns into something radically different. It's a bit like playing a game of how heavily you can load up a bridge and gamble on exactly when it will break. We can already see the girders buckling... Note that despite all of the paid for power industry FUD publicity and sponsored research, there are no reputable publications to say we can pollute our atmosphere with ever increasingly vast amounts of CO2 for no consequence. Still our only one planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
All already closely looked at. I tend to doubt it. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21253 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
All already closely looked at. Then please look for yourself. Or let us know where the science is so wildly wrong. Just one 'teaser' to try: Water vapour: feedback or forcing? Note in that posting that "long wave radiation" is more commonly known as infrared heat and is what is radiated from the surface of our planet (outwards to the cold of space). Meanwhile, our sun radiates "short wave radiation" that we see as sunlight. Also note how we rely on about 33 deg C of natural global warming for our present comfortably pleasant life. All in our only world, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21253 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Two small success stories: Largest carbon capture plant in UK opens in Yorkshire ... The pilot at the Ferrybridge power station, ... will capture emissions equivalent to 5MW of generation. This is a small fraction of the total exhaust gas from the 2000MW plant, but 50 times bigger than the previous biggest pilot, the company said. The carbon dioxide captured will not be stored, as this pilot is aimed at testing the scrubbing part of the process. ... Huhne insists carbon reduction strategy is 'on track' Energy Secretary Chris Huhne has insisted that plans to cut Britain's carbon emissions are on track. ... ... Asked about the recent announcement of a reduction in subsidies for solar panels, Mr Huhne said this was a "sensible course correction" because the cost of panels had fallen. ... ... The estimated cost of this transition could be as high as £20bn, the plan suggests, although it also could ultimately result in a net benefit to the economy of £1bn. Mr Huhne has vowed to change the way the country produces energy, replacing old coal plants with gas-fired power stations and renewable sources as well as building a new generation of nuclear plants. The carbon plan suggests that household energy bills could be 7% lower in 2020 than now if government policies on home insulation and energy efficiency are fully implemented. ... And we've a long way to go yet! All in our only world, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Nick Send message Joined: 11 Oct 11 Posts: 4344 Credit: 3,313,107 RAC: 0 |
The carbon plan suggests that household energy bills could be 7% lower in 2020 than now if government policies on home insulation and energy efficiency are fully implemented. ... Martin, there's no correlation between energy saved hence lower household energy costs. In the UK for instance as consumption has gone down so unit cost has risen to compensate the energy suppliers loss in profits. Consumers are doing their bit but get penalized for it by the energy suppliers. The Kite Fliers -------------------- Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes. |
KWSN - MajorKong Send message Joined: 5 Jan 00 Posts: 2892 Credit: 1,499,890 RAC: 0 |
The carbon plan suggests that household energy bills could be 7% lower in 2020 than now if government policies on home insulation and energy efficiency are fully implemented. ... Well, Nick, I am not all that familiar with this situation in the UK, but here in the USA, something similar is happening re: government taxation. As consumers gradually convert over to using more fuel/energy efficient vehicles, the various States and the Federal Government are considering implementing changes to the tax structure. As vehicle owners use less fuel, the governments are wanting to change from a per gallon tax on gasoline/diesel to one based on number of miles driven. Ya can't win for losing. https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE #Texit Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016. Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power. |
Dena Wiltsie Send message Joined: 19 Apr 01 Posts: 1628 Credit: 24,230,968 RAC: 26 |
The UN is in the process of making another step toward world government under the guise of global warming. Here is a status update on their current plan. Hopefully this treaty will go the way off most of them in the past and will be ignored by all of the major powers. Durban |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31015 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/science/earth/canada-leaving-kyoto-protocol-on-climate-change.html?_r=1 December 12, 2011 |
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