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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1057407 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 7:00:05 UTC

Time for an example. Apple ][. When it first shipped with 4k Ram did it have an operating system? Yes I'm talking the bare configuration without any Disk ][. When you turned it on, it came up in Basic. Did it have an O/S?

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Message 1057408 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 7:01:34 UTC - in response to Message 1057407.  

Yes. Same with the original IBM PC when it booted into ROM BASIC.
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Message 1057418 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 8:16:56 UTC

operating system
noun
the software that supports a computer's basic functions, such as scheduling tasks, executing applications, and controlling peripherals.

This is where it gets messy. In our unit scheduling task and executing applications is done by other applications needing the service needing the function of the first application. An application is woke up by an interrupt or by a service request by another application. As for controlling peripherals, the application exist to control the peripheral.

This is an environment few programmers have seen. You have to be an assembler programmer and rule number one is you don't use code provided by anyone else. At one point an attempt was made to have an operating system/application divide in the unit but it made the unit very unstable because the applications needed to do things like mask the interrupts that interfered with the operating system. When we ripped that code out in the 2.0 version of the code, many of our problems went away.

I don't have anything against operating system, but when you have an under powered processor, a limited amount of memory and I/O is not centralized, an operating system is something you can't afford.
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Message 1057421 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 8:29:07 UTC - in response to Message 1057418.  
Last modified: 18 Dec 2010, 8:35:25 UTC

operating system
noun
the software that supports a computer's basic functions, such as scheduling tasks, executing applications, and controlling peripherals.

This is where it gets messy. In our unit scheduling task and executing applications is done by other applications needing the service needing the function of the first application. An application is woke up by an interrupt or by a service request by another application. As for controlling peripherals, the application exist to control the peripheral.

This is an environment few programmers have seen. You have to be an assembler programmer and rule number one is you don't use code provided by anyone else. At one point an attempt was made to have an operating system/application divide in the unit but it made the unit very unstable because the applications needed to do things like mask the interrupts that interfered with the operating system. When we ripped that code out in the 2.0 version of the code, many of our problems went away.

I don't have anything against operating system, but when you have an under powered processor, a limited amount of memory and I/O is not centralized, an operating system is something you can't afford.


What are you programming for. Being in the area I am I know sometimes you can't tell particulars, but what sort of project is this? Especially with the line "This is an environment few programmers have seen." You don't happen to work for Hydra do you?
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Message 1057478 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 12:32:51 UTC - in response to Message 1057421.  

Obviously some of you consider any piece of code that can talk to hardware directly to be an OS. I don't and I'm not the only one.

Reason: it's not easy to draw the line between hardware and software these days. Is firmware hardware or software? If software, then is a DSP software an OS? What do you call software that lies between user application and that DSP-containing board? OS running on top of OS?

Crazy example: An old-style terminal (such as DEC VT-100 classic), hooked up to a classical Hayes modem. Which part of the whole setup is an OS? Obviously you have I/O (keyboard, video terminal, RS-232, modem chip that answers to commands,...). OK, in extreme view each piece has it's own OS ... I think that's overloading the name.
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Message 1057480 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 12:39:03 UTC

Anybody want to actually get back to helping the OP? ;-)

Giz.



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Message 1057482 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 12:52:06 UTC

Whilst there are, quite clearly, people with knowledge and experience of hardware, software and firmware, these 'retorts' are not really being much help to the OP.

For what it may be worth, Idone, I once had similar problems on an old 3.2GHz P4 running XP Pro SP3....it turned out to be, one of the four RAM modules was not quite 100%. Given that the RAM I had, was, OCZ Platinum, it was about the third thing I did a replacement test on. Believe me, I was surprised, but since it got replaced by OCZ, ultimately there was no problem.


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Message 1057528 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 15:47:02 UTC - in response to Message 1057418.  
Last modified: 18 Dec 2010, 16:31:45 UTC

operating system
noun
the software that supports a computer's basic functions, such as scheduling tasks, executing applications, and controlling peripherals.


Operating System. n.
1. A program of control that defines the functionality, intelligence, and scope of a system or systems of operations.

I don't have anything against operating system, but when you have an under powered processor, a limited amount of memory and I/O is not centralized, an operating system is something you can't afford.


Just like the original IBM PC. It had an OS too.
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Message 1057529 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 15:53:32 UTC - in response to Message 1057478.  
Last modified: 18 Dec 2010, 16:08:37 UTC

Obviously some of you consider any piece of code that can talk to hardware directly to be an OS. I don't and I'm not the only one.


Quite right at that, which is why I'm here trying to expand your views of what an OS is.

By the way, an OS isn't just any piece of code that can talk to the hardware. An OS is simply a system of control that defines the parameters of the machine and allows code to execute (and as -BeNt- says, save).

Reason: it's not easy to draw the line between hardware and software these days. Is firmware hardware or software? If software, then is a DSP software an OS?


Not at all. It's quite easy to draw the line between hardware and software. You have to know how to look at the system clearly.

Firmware is software embedded into the hardware. DSP firmware is software embedded into the DSP chip. In a way, it is a confined OS for that chip.

What do you call software that lies between user application and that DSP-containing board? OS running on top of OS?


A separate OS with different parameters and different interfacing options. The DSP firmware simply defines a single chip's operation. The "user" OS defines the interface between the machine and the user.

Crazy example: An old-style terminal (such as DEC VT-100 classic), hooked up to a classical Hayes modem. Which part of the whole setup is an OS? Obviously you have I/O (keyboard, video terminal, RS-232, modem chip that answers to commands,...). OK, in extreme view each piece has it's own OS ... I think that's overloading the name.


Not at all. Each piece has it's own system of operations, or operating system. Each piece is designed to work together as a unit for an intended task or operation.

An operating system is actually a broad term that isn't meant to be narrowly applied.
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Message 1057532 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 16:01:20 UTC - in response to Message 1057482.  

Gizbar wrote:
Anybody want to actually get back to helping the OP? ;-)


Iona wrote:
Whilst there are, quite clearly, people with knowledge and experience of hardware, software and firmware, these 'retorts' are not really being much help to the OP.


The OP hasn't chimed-in in a while, and the last report said he was doing further testing. At this point we're just waiting on new information from him in order to offer additional assistance.

With apologies to the OP, and to anyone who thinks I'm 'retorting', but I see nothing wrong with off-topic digression so long as the topic is obviously enthralling to those who keep contributing to it. Any good conversation has its twists and turns away from the original topic.
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Message 1057537 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 16:48:05 UTC

Frankly, I'm not surprised that the OP has not "chimed-in", in a while. Even given, that it takes a little time to test things and bearing in mind that swapping memory modules relies on having something to swap with! Someone new to S@H asks for help and they get 'ego trips'?!



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Message 1057539 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 16:54:47 UTC - in response to Message 1057537.  

Frankly, I'm not surprised that the OP has not "chimed-in", in a while. Even given, that it takes a little time to test things and bearing in mind that swapping memory modules relies on having something to swap with! Someone new to S@H asks for help and they get 'ego trips'?!


Not everyone sees discussion as 'ego trips'. Some people might even be interested in reading and enlightened by the conversation themselves.

Is this what Number Crunching has turned into? The fact that any time people have an intense discussion, we label it as retorts, egos and all sorts of things with negative connotations? Why can't we see discussion for what it is?
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Message 1057542 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 17:22:04 UTC - in response to Message 1057539.  

Since you seem to regard this as helpful to the OP, pray, continue. The guy was asking for help and mainly, there was a 'discussion' about software, hardware and firmware. I'm sure that my experience with Sintered Metals, high temperature, controlled gas atmosphere furnaces (the biggest of it's type in the world) and thermal co-efficients would prove to be just as scintillating - to a Metallurgist. Only to a Metallurgist, but possibly to a company involved in such activities, also. My point being, that the OP is none-the-wiser for his asking. Thats helpful....really helpful. The original posting, was not a discussion - it was a request for help. Why can't a request for help, be treated as just that? A simple request for help; rather than a divergant discussion.


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Message 1057548 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 17:38:02 UTC - in response to Message 1057542.  

Why can't a request for help, be treated as just that?

Actually, it wasn't possible to treat it like that, because not even the simplest piece of information was given that would be needed to provide help.

And from the following requests to provide that information a discussion has evolved, albeit off topic. I see nothing bad in that.

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Message 1057550 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 17:41:12 UTC - in response to Message 1057548.  

Check again...."Blue screen after a short while running seti....error was cache_manager".


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Message 1057551 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 17:43:54 UTC - in response to Message 1057542.  

Since you seem to regard this as helpful to the OP, pray, continue.


I never said it was helpful, just enlightening.

My point being, that the OP is none-the-wiser for his asking. Thats helpful....really helpful. The original posting, was not a discussion - it was a request for help. Why can't a request for help, be treated as just that? A simple request for help; rather than a divergant discussion.


And I fully admitted that this is off-topic, yet still interesting.

Why does every discussion have to have Discussion Nazi's telling everyone else what they are allowed to discuss? Aren't you contributing to the very 'ego' you're arguing against by continuously arguing about it, and further digressing the discussion?

Its times like this that I'm really ashamed to be a part of the community, and one of the many reasons why I've tried to leave, but I keep coming back for discussions like the one I was having. I don't need attitude for trying to share my views, even if they are "off topic".

How about this: Everyone else that isn't interested in the discussion stop reading it and stop telling people what they're allowed to do. If the OP is bothered by it, let him speak up. Maybe he doesn't mind the discussion.
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Message 1057555 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 17:47:56 UTC - in response to Message 1057550.  

Check again...."Blue screen after a short while running seti....error was cache_manager".


Also note that I provided the most accurate help and several options to test.

Do I really have to face such persecution for trying to help other people even if it's "off topic" for the thread?
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Message 1057566 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 18:15:08 UTC - in response to Message 1057551.  

Off topic. A discussion Nazi? Thats rich. As far as I'm aware, I've never been a member of a 'nationalistic political party' that advocates discussion, or else! You are quite correct, I am feeding the ego...yours. Thats it, I'm out of here.


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Message 1057570 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 18:26:11 UTC - in response to Message 1057566.  
Last modified: 18 Dec 2010, 18:53:32 UTC

Off topic. A discussion Nazi? Thats rich. As far as I'm aware, I've never been a member of a 'nationalistic political party' that advocates discussion, or else! You are quite correct, I am feeding the ego...yours. Thats it, I'm out of here.


So you don't advocate discussion? Obviously by your attempts to steer it as you see fit, hence 'discussion nazi'.

I wasn't aware that it is 'egoist' to try to express my views and help people whenever and wherever I can.

What is it with these harsh feelings and attitudes toward me? Am I really doing something so bad that warrants this? Is having a view and fighting for it really such a disrespectful thing?

Just so you know Iona and Dena, I have always held the two of you in high regard, even if I don't always agree. Its very sad to see such a great discussion go down the tubes like this because of harsh feelings, angry words or misunderstood text.
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Message 1057594 - Posted: 18 Dec 2010, 20:02:05 UTC

Wow come on people, you're honestly going to let one sad sally mess up an entire, intriguing, thought provoking, conversation. I was enjoying seeing what everyone's view were. So much for the 'forum' aspect of it.
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