I think the original "CLIMATE CHANGE" thread has run a good course and has become large enough to warrant making a new thread.

The old thread finally ran full circle from the first post about the oceans acidifying to finally that being very unfortunately demonstrated merely a year later by an article posted to the Climate Change Answers thread.

Another posting about acidifying oceans threatening shellfish had been of course 'dismissed' by the various 'deniers - sceptics'...

The 'suspicion' of the CO2 'greenhouse effect' is a very old idea going back to research done over a century ago.


There are ongoing parallel threads on other aspects of climate change on:

STUPID or Not Stupid? The Age of STUPID (Worldwide event!)

Climate Attack!

The Day The World Failed

Climate Change Answers


And the saga continues...

Just two press articles to compare for the latest science news:


Sea ice loss driving Arctic warming cycle, scientists confirm

Study identifies cycle of ice loss and temperature rise that could see Arctic's icy cover disappear sooner than expected

Looks like we may well already have tripped into a climate tipping point whereby we will very soon during the summers have zero arctic ice.


Melting sea ice would cause sea levels to rise by 'hair's breadth'

Melting icebergs are causing sea levels to rise, scientists have discovered, but only by a hair's breadth every year.

So... We've got nothing to worry about then?...



“The era of procrastination, of half measures, of soothing and baffling expedients of delay are coming to a close. In its place, we are entering a period of consequences.”

- Winston Churchill



Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
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Just wait until a 'hair's breadth' becomes 'a centimetre a year'... and then 'a inch a year'.

I feel sorry for those who live at sea level.

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- Luke.

Just wait until a 'hair's breadth' becomes 'a centimetre a year'... and then 'a inch a year'.

I feel sorry for those who live at sea level.

The "hair's breadth" is just for the floating ice that is melting...

You have a much greater effect from the land-based ice melting and from the expansion of water due to the increase in temperature.

The sea level is already rising a lot more than just a "hair's breadth" each year...


So much for unambiguous journalism!

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
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Now this is old news but still an interesting one for recently hitting the news:


Revealed: the secret evidence of global warming Bush tried to hide

Photos from US spy satellites declassified by the Obama White House provide the first graphic images of how the polar ice sheets are retreating in the summer. The effects on the world's weather, environments and wildlife could be devastating

[...]

One particularly striking set of images - selected from the 1,000 photographs released - includes views of the Alaskan port of Barrow. One, taken in July 2006, shows sea ice still nestling close to the shore. A second image shows that by the following July the coastal waters were entirely ice-free.

The photographs demonstrate starkly how global warming is changing the Arctic. More than a million square kilometres of sea ice - a record loss - were missing in the summer of 2007 compared with the previous year.

Nor has this loss shown any sign of recovery. Ice cover for 2008 was almost as bad as for 2007, and this year levels look equally sparse. ...


Conspiracy anyone?

It's our only one planet.

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
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I'm surprised it has taken this long for such direct measurements to be made:

Arctic explorers take first-ever water samples at north pole

Arctic survey drills 'hole in the pole' to collect water samples that will be used to measure ocean acidification...

Globally, oceans have seen a 30% increase in acidity on pre-industrial levels, the fastest rate of change in 55 million years. Scientists say that carbon emissions from human activity is to blame. The Arctic Ocean appears to be acidifying faster than warmer regions because cold water absorbs more CO2...


It still doesn't help the demise of shell life in various parts of the overly acidic oceans.

It's our only world!

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
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And so it begins...

Is this going to be the first of the big conflicts over water?


East Africa seeks more Nile water from Egypt

... He also said Egypt and Sudan needed water more than those in more fertile regions.

"They have a lot of rain: This is nature," he said. "They do not need the water. Here in Sudan we need water."

Egypt's farmers are almost wholly dependent on the River Nile and its water.

The BBC's Will Ross says that, with populations soaring, demand for water increasing and climate change having an impact, there are warnings that wrangling over the world's longest river could be a trigger for conflict.

"If we don't have an agreed co-operative framework, there will be no peace," Kenya's director of water resources John Nyaro told the BBC before the meeting.

"Where there is no rule of law, the rule of the jungle does not provide peace."


It's our only world!
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
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And so it begins...

Is this going to be the first of the big conflicts over water?
...

Nope, Sorry. Here in South Australia we've been fighting with New South Wales for decades due to environmentally unsound practices and water hoarding by upstream cotton farmers of the Murray-Darling Basin.

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"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.

They will need Nuclear plants to run desalinization (sp?) activities. I believe that Australia/New Zealand is already running huge water supply operations in desalinization of sea water. Recent breakthroughs in technique have reduced the required energy amounts as well. I believe this is going on in the Nordic regions as well.

Concern about climate effects hits Nature:

Mediterranean most at risk from European heatwaves

Increased heat and humidity predicted to have biggest health impact in valleys and coastal cities.


It's our only world!
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The last (and only) time I went to Paris I froze my ass in August. Germany, also very cold when some of my acquaintances visited there.

A few degress warmer would maybe help if you believe catching cold due to being chilled can be fatal.

Climate cycles are a fact, probably not due to CO-2; man-made or otherwise.

Please note that this thread is under politics so "anything goes".

The last (and only) time I went to Paris I froze my ass in August. Germany, also very cold when some of my acquaintances visited there.

A few degress warmer would maybe help if you believe catching cold due to being chilled can be fatal. ...

That's so glib and unscientific as to be laughable.

So you prefer to have summer in winter and a Venusian scorcher during the summer?

So what about all the other shifts of weather, ecology, and forced mass migration of everything?


Oh... Sorry. Forgot it's all some sort of conspiratorial joke!


Does cold weather disprove global warming?

Positives and negatives of global warming

Climate is always changing...

It's just a natural cycle


I'm sorry, but you of all people must know that one cold spell in one area, even if unusual for that area, only points to varied weather for that particular locale. Climate describes a longer term average and notes the expected extremes.

It's our only world!
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

" Message 993103 - Posted 1 May 2010 0:19:50 UTC


Last modified: 1 May 2010 0:20:17 UTC

Now this is old news but still an interesting one for recently hitting the news:

Revealed: the secret evidence of global warming Bush tried to hide

Photos from US spy satellites declassified by the Obama White House provide the first graphic images of how the polar ice sheets are retreating in the summer. The effects on the world's weather, environments and wildlife could be devastating"

Seems to be pretty much frozen today.
Sorry - my link is to a public web cam, not to "secret spy satellite photo"

http://seaice.alaska.edu/gi/observatories/barrow_webcam
For today's and previous years arctic ice see

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

Sorry this link isn't to "secret spy satellite photos" either, and satellite records go back to Daddy Bush.

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Man - a creature made at the end of the week's work when God was tired. - Mark Twain

" Message 993103 - Posted 1 May 2010 0:19:50 UTC


Last modified: 1 May 2010 0:20:17 UTC

Now this is old news but still an interesting one for recently hitting the news:

Revealed: the secret evidence of global warming Bush tried to hide

Photos from US spy satellites declassified by the Obama White House provide the first graphic images of how the polar ice sheets are retreating in the summer. The effects on the world's weather, environments and wildlife could be devastating"

Seems to be pretty much frozen today.
Sorry - my link is to a public web cam, not to "secret spy satellite photo"

//seaice.alaska.edu/gi/observatories/barrow_webcam

Very good, and at the moment it does indeed look nicely frozen at that point.

Much more interesting is:

For today's and previous years arctic ice see

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

Sorry this link isn't to "secret spy satellite photos" either, and satellite records go back to Daddy Bush.

Now look for the dates on which the ice appears and retreats...

That site also explains a little of the significance:

The importance of coastal ice covers in the context of climate variability and native subsistence activities


"Climate" is not what the weather is on just one day. Climate has more to do with how you and I and the rest of life can live on the planet year to year and across decades. Which is why the present rate of very fast change is so scary!


It's our only world,

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Right you are; works for cold as well as hot anomalies--Earth may be warming. Europe still bloody cold most of the time. I don't see the proof that it is linked to CO-2. Co-2 was a lot higher long ago. I could believe water vapor or increased solar activity.

I am no Climatologist but neither is Al Gore and those that would profit from another Big Public Scare.

so the status quo works for you where the current energy situation and fossil fuel companies that are making a handy profit are still in charge. Terrific to know this. Most people are afraid of change. Its like the guy thats standing waist deep in a cesspool refusing to change into one that only goes up to his ankles because there might be razor blades in that one.

I'd think the logical course is to take a leap of faith on this one and get in that ankle deep cesspool and get over our own self preservation fears

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

... Co-2 was a lot higher long ago. I could believe water vapor or increased solar activity. ...

The measured differences in solar activity do not go anywhere near explaining the continued warming trend that we see.

Why do you consider water vapour to have a climate effect and yet not CO2?


It's our only world!

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

>>The measured differences in solar activity do not go anywhere near explaining the continued warming trend that we see.
There's no any warming trend.
Our scientist was talking about this as global fake long before that fake letters was stolen by hacker.
In fact, this winter was beating all "cold records' in Russia for past 100 years. Here's was -39 Celsium record (in Moscow) and absolute snow record. Overall temperature very very low.

That you could see past 30 yers is just a simple temperature variation. It was before. All the times.

To sum up. Water vapor has a vastly greater effect on temperature than CO-2. It's called cloud cover. No cloud cover then quite a bit of overnight cooling to be sure.

Sun spots do follow a cycle and this can affect communication here on earth therefore there is fluctuations in the ampunt of energy reaching the earth. I also doubt that we trace the exact same orbit around the Sun each year since the sun has it's own small orbit also and the large planets also have an effect on our orbit--have you checked this out.

I would be willing to take the high road and say let's go nuclear and reduce burning of fossil fuel--mostly for other reasons besides climate change. this would probably be less expensive and more usable than solar, windmills and other schemes for attaching scrubbers and Co-2 capture on coal fired plants. This would have to be carefully managed--Is it possible in the US? I wonder if we can manage anything anymore.


What I fear is a stupid response to an invalid threat such as cap and trade, sequestering and burying CO-2 and the like. So let's not argue and let's go all out for Nuclear.

Just for grins what do residential users pay in France per Kilowatt hour ??

I just posted this in another thread, but I will post it here as well. Human contributions to the CO2 in the environment are minimal compared to natural sources like bogs, volcanoes, etc. The bigger problem that we introduce is toxicity. Since the advent of industry, we've been introducing both catalytic substances which are highly destructive in very small quantities, as well as poisonous substances that aren't easily broken down in nature. Over the past 50 years we've gotten much better about both of these things due to tighter regulation, so it's less of an issue today.

The bottom line is, the climate on Earth changes constantly and our contribution to this process shouldn't be overexaggerated.

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Agree absolutely