Political Thread [22]

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Message 774123 - Posted: 27 Jun 2008, 3:12:18 UTC

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Message 774605 - Posted: 28 Jun 2008, 5:47:33 UTC



Ruling right on history – and limited in effect

San Diego Union-Tribune

June 27, 2008

The U.S. Supreme Court's decision yesterday throwing out the Washington, D.C., ban on individual ownership of handguns had barely been released before the usual partisan fireworks began. Commentators on Fox News and many talk-radio shows hailed Justice Antonin Scalia's 5-4 majority decision as a long-overdue rebuke of intrusive, authoritarian government. Critics on CNN and National Public Radio lamented the court's alleged rewriting of long-held precedent in service of a far-right agenda.

We'd like to offer another view: Whatever its ideological trappings, Scalia's ruling was a victory for common sense. It relied on the most logical, thoughtful reading of American history to reach a conclusion about the constitutionality of a handgun ban. But it also left in place the vast majority of bans on more dangerous firearms and explicitly affirmed government's right to regulate and place conditions on buying and carrying guns.

What Scalia had to decipher was this awkward, confusing sentence in the Second Amendment to the Constitution: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

The reference to bearing arms as part of a well-regulated militia has led many gun-control advocates to contend the amendment offered no guarantee whatsoever of individual gun ownership rights. Yet as Scalia's decision established, the historical context makes plain such rights are exactly what was intended. Among his many persuasive citations, he noted that nine state constitutions drafted in the early years of the nation included similar but better-written affirmations of individuals' right to bear arms.

But the four dissenting justices nonetheless maintained that the gun-control movement first flexed its power in post-revolutionary America. We welcome the honesty of another liberal who joins these justices in seeing guns as a national scourge but who finds their argument outlandish: “I've always had trouble believing that a bunch of radicals who had just overthrown their British oppressors would tolerate any arrangement in which government had a monopoly on the instruments of deadly force,” Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson writes elsewhere on today's pages.

And we also welcome the honesty of the many mainstream legal experts who noted that Scalia's decision was much more an affirmation than a rejection of America's gun-regulation status quo – starting with a certain former president of the Harvard Law Review: “Justice Scalia himself acknowledged that this right is not absolute and subject to reasonable regulations enacted by local communities to keep their streets safe,” said Sen. Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee.

Yes, yesterday's ruling is sure to guarantee a wave of new litigation targeting gun laws. It is also certain to prompt breathless fund-raising appeals from gun-control groups warning the sky is falling. But most of the litigation will fail, and the sky won't fall – and in due time, Scalia's decision will be seen as more prudent than radical.
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Message 774704 - Posted: 28 Jun 2008, 11:21:10 UTC - in response to Message 774605.  

Oil: Can we move the clock ahead a decade or three?

By now, America has drilled for oil in ANWR, and offshore and in Teddy Roosevelt's head at Mt. Rushmore. Now what?



The United States currently consumes 25% of the available oil every year. Once the oil in ANWR, and offshore oil and Teddy's head is gone... then what?


Isn't the better option to invest in electric powered cars, or solar powered cars, or fart powered cars today?

Sewage plant may be renamed after Bush:
A fitting tribute to a dim man.
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Message 774710 - Posted: 28 Jun 2008, 11:44:39 UTC - in response to Message 774704.  

Oil: Can we move the clock ahead a decade or three?

By now, America has drilled for oil in ANWR, and offshore and in Teddy Roosevelt's head at Mt. Rushmore. Now what?



The United States currently consumes 25% of the available oil every year. Once the oil in ANWR, and offshore oil and Teddy's head is gone... then what?


Isn't the better option to invest in electric powered cars, or solar powered cars, or fart powered cars today?

Sewage plant may be renamed after Bush:
A fitting tribute to a dim man.


Actually one could easily argue that the better option would be to spend on proven technology during times of crisis, and experimentation during times of prosperity and peace.


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Message 774821 - Posted: 28 Jun 2008, 17:59:42 UTC - in response to Message 774710.  

spend on proven technology during times of crisis, and experimentation during times of prosperity and peace.

Too bad for us, those who have been prospering for the past fifty years didn't see it that way... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 774826 - Posted: 28 Jun 2008, 18:13:20 UTC
Last modified: 28 Jun 2008, 18:17:23 UTC

What's the crisis? price of fuel? pfft, though it's risen quite a lot it's still cheaper than orange juice here in Australia. If that spawns more rapid technological development towards higher efficiency, and forces alternatives for power generation and vehicle propulsion ... bring it on. It'll keep me in work.

And back to the political orientation of the thread, at least our 'so-called liberal' (more like socialist) government was voted out and we can *hopefully* make moves toward improving our infrastructure and industry base, that has been systematically stymied for the last 12 or so years.

Jason
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 774914 - Posted: 28 Jun 2008, 21:12:57 UTC - in response to Message 774826.  

What's the crisis? price of fuel? pfft, though it's risen quite a lot it's still cheaper than orange juice here in Australia. If that spawns more rapid technological development towards higher efficiency, and forces alternatives for power generation and vehicle propulsion ... bring it on. It'll keep me in work.

And back to the political orientation of the thread, at least our 'so-called liberal' (more like socialist) government was voted out and we can *hopefully* make moves toward improving our infrastructure and industry base, that has been systematically stymied for the last 12 or so years.

Jason


Sorry, but it doesn't spawn rapid development....as I stated, in a crisis the wise decision is to spend on proven technology.

This link says scooter sales are up 400% in Victoria, Australia since 2003....does that sound like rapid development of new technology to you because it sounds a lot like turning to proven technology to me.


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Message 774916 - Posted: 28 Jun 2008, 21:15:02 UTC - in response to Message 774821.  

spend on proven technology during times of crisis, and experimentation during times of prosperity and peace.

Too bad for us, those who have been prospering for the past fifty years didn't see it that way... ;)



Blame the lefties you voted for then.

Not "the fat rich white guys only interested in profit" that I vote for...


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Message 775077 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 4:03:25 UTC - in response to Message 774914.  
Last modified: 29 Jun 2008, 4:16:51 UTC

Sorry, but it doesn't spawn rapid development....as I stated, in a crisis the wise decision is to spend on proven technology.

This link says scooter sales are up 400% in Victoria, Australia since 2003....does that sound like rapid development of new technology to you because it sounds a lot like turning to proven technology to me.


LoL, I partly agree, however this is Australia we're talking about, those scooters are being adopted for metropolitan driving in cities like Melbourne Victoria where the traffic has always been notoriously bumper to bumper, and does not represent typical driving conditions throughout Australia. [Think potholes, long distances, and road train drivers hepped up on happy beans]

The 'proven' technologies that work for most driving needs, and particularly range capability in this country typically involve much larger vehicles. The local editions of both the popular 'Holden commodore' and 'Ford Falcon' have been typical choices for decades, and in construction have historically more resemblance to farm equipment than modern japanese or european imports by which they are only relatively recently being supplanted by.

So in the context of Australian conditions, many of these more fuel efficient imports, including Vespa scooters, are 'new' and 'unproven' in this environment, and are considered new technology [and are promoted as such]. I agree this makes us a little backward in some respects, but keep in mind that riding a Vespa even on the relatively short Melbourne to Adelaide route, would be a dangerous prospect, though conserve an admirable amount of fuel.

Jason
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 775194 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 11:28:25 UTC - in response to Message 775077.  



LoL, I partly agree, however this is Australia we're talking about, those scooters are being adopted for metropolitan driving in cities like Melbourne Victoria where the traffic has always been notoriously bumper to bumper, and does not represent typical driving conditions throughout Australia. [Think potholes, long distances, and road train drivers hepped up on happy beans]

The 'proven' technologies that work for most driving needs, and particularly range capability in this country typically involve much larger vehicles. The local editions of both the popular 'Holden commodore' and 'Ford Falcon' have been typical choices for decades, and in construction have historically more resemblance to farm equipment than modern japanese or european imports by which they are only relatively recently being supplanted by.

So in the context of Australian conditions, many of these more fuel efficient imports, including Vespa scooters, are 'new' and 'unproven' in this environment, and are considered new technology [and are promoted as such]. I agree this makes us a little backward in some respects, but keep in mind that riding a Vespa even on the relatively short Melbourne to Adelaide route, would be a dangerous prospect, though conserve an admirable amount of fuel.

Jason


Well that is a good point. Here in Louisiana, we have lot's of swampy regions that fall into the same category.

...but that doesn't negate the fact that times of crisis generally do not spawn rapid technological advances.




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Message 775212 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 13:30:32 UTC - in response to Message 775194.  
Last modified: 29 Jun 2008, 13:36:02 UTC

Well that is a good point. Here in Louisiana, we have lot's of swampy regions that fall into the same category.

...but that doesn't negate the fact that times of crisis generally do not spawn rapid technological advances.

Well I'm not trying to negate that statement entirely either, as I said I agree in part. Where I'm coming from is that Australia has had a history of so-called 'crises' related to distance and isolation, that generally spawn local adaptations more suitable to the local conditions. In that regard there typically are no periods without crises of some form or another. These so-called 'crises' then by nature here are expected and the 'norm', and perhaps no longer considered as such, but are innate features of living in one of the world's harshest environments.

Historically this has manifested as a culture of ingenuity and innovation that persists outside metropolitan regions through necessity. These challenges, mostly environmentally related, have shaped technological advancement that will continue despite any one specific 'time of crisis' as there isn't any one, but many.

If there wasn't challenge, or 'crisis' of some sort going on, what motivation would there be for any advancement at all?

However,
it's my contention, related more to the political thread context rather than the price of fuel, that our previous government through interference with industry, both directly & indirectly by excessive regulation and taxation, poor infrastructure planning, and structuring of a multi-tiered bureaucratic welfare system that promotes skill shortages and general social degeneration, has undermined this heritage of ingenuity and technological advancement.

This perhaps then may be our first 'real' crisis.

Jason
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 775262 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 15:41:35 UTC - in response to Message 775212.  

If there wasn't challenge, or 'crisis' of some sort going on, what motivation would there be for any advancement at all?

I'd say the past fifty years are a testament to that... But I'd also say, those very same people are now 'manufacturing a crisis' in the hopes of fixin what they broken... I think it will fail, not because I think your theory is wrong, but because of the arrogance of the perpetrators... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 775270 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 15:52:19 UTC - in response to Message 775262.  
Last modified: 29 Jun 2008, 16:25:23 UTC

If there wasn't challenge, or 'crisis' of some sort going on, what motivation would there be for any advancement at all?

I'd say the past fifty years are a testament to that... But I'd also say, those very same people are now 'manufacturing a crisis' in the hopes of fixin what they broken... I think it will fail, not because I think your theory is wrong, but because of the arrogance of the perpetrators... ;)


LoL, a manufactured treadmill, or conspiratorially perpetrated diversion from reality (like a reality show or something) ? possible I guess, if 'they' were substantially smarter than bureaucrats and politicians I've encountered, or else 'they' could be dumber than me then we're really up 'that' creek without a paddle ;D

[Edit: Jeffrey, I've worked in eco start-up companies and have developed a 'nose' for white elephants, though I've seen smart men suckered out of their money. Trust in sound science, technology and engineering ... though the worthwhile lines aren't necessarily drawn where most would expect, but in academia, industrialism and common sense instead (surprisingly). I've yet to read a scientific paper supporting many of the claims made in media, regarding the remaining fossil fuel reserves estimates, and not seen any global climate models based on field data rather than 'simulations'. So your your implication of a manufactured crisis, practical or conjured, may not be totally off base, just the numbers may not be in for a while. Just remember when everything turns out okay it was me who saved the day :D]
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Message 775305 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 16:26:16 UTC - in response to Message 775270.  
Last modified: 29 Jun 2008, 16:34:01 UTC

Trust in sound science technology and engineering ...

All of which are 'useless' without the help of 'bright minds'...

There is a reason why they failed to train their replacement in the traditional way over the past fifty years, and their is a reason why their 'crash course' training programs are failing them now... And it will be the same reason why the 'pressure them for ideas with a crisis' will fail them as well...

You can't just drop someone into the ocean and expect them to learn how to swim and build an aircraft carrier by the end of the week... Which is exactly what these people are hoping for... It is unreasonable, and it will fail... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 775313 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 16:34:49 UTC - in response to Message 775305.  
Last modified: 29 Jun 2008, 16:35:37 UTC

Trust in sound science technology and engineering ...

All of which are 'useless' without the help of 'bright minds'...

There is a reason why they failed to train their replacement in the traditional way over the past fifty years, and their is a reason why their 'crash course' training programs are failing them now... And it will be the same reason why the 'pressure them for ideas with a crisis' will fail them as well... ;)


Playstation 3 ? ;D

No seriously, there are geniuses (Genii?) in this world that are yet to appear. Have you lost your faith in humanity?
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 775318 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 16:45:54 UTC - in response to Message 775313.  

there are geniuses (Genii?) in this world that are yet to appear. Have you lost your faith in humanity?

Proving my point of the 'quik-fix'... If they had done their job, we wouldn't need a genii in a bottle... ;)

(And yes, the 'playstation' era is a problem, but more so is the 'out of touch with reality' generation. I'm a proud member of neither.)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 775327 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 16:56:35 UTC - in response to Message 775318.  

Proving my point of the 'quik-fix'... If they had done their job, we wouldn't need a genii in a bottle... ;)
Does a genius represent a quick-fix? or merely a new way of looking at what already is?
(And yes, the 'playstation' era is a problem, but more so is the 'out of touch with reality' generation. I'm a proud member of neither.)
is it really the playstation that's the problem? or the welfare state that sustains the culture. You also have the power to influence others by your own example, doesn't that make you a participant in this?

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Message 775390 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 18:09:24 UTC - in response to Message 775327.  
Last modified: 29 Jun 2008, 18:24:29 UTC

You also have the power to influence others by your own example, doesn't that make you a participant in this?

In a free society, yes... In a controlled environment, no... ;)

(People don't usually tend to shine while being poked, probed, prodded, and prompted.)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 775395 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 18:20:56 UTC - in response to Message 775194.  

...but that doesn't negate the fact that times of crisis generally do not spawn rapid technological advances.

[/quote]



i wish that would be true but ww2 managed to pull out invention like atomic bomb(not good one)jet propulsion in a manner of v2(not good one) jet fighter like me262(little better)paper hankerchief(good one)penicillin(good one)radar(good one)
ww1 x-ray(good one)
and maybe some other one i don´t remember now, gotta go again
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Message 775417 - Posted: 29 Jun 2008, 19:02:29 UTC - in response to Message 775212.  

Well that is a good point. Here in Louisiana, we have lot's of swampy regions that fall into the same category.

...but that doesn't negate the fact that times of crisis generally do not spawn rapid technological advances.

Well I'm not trying to negate that statement entirely either, as I said I agree in part. Where I'm coming from is that Australia has had a history of so-called 'crises' related to distance and isolation, that generally spawn local adaptations more suitable to the local conditions. In that regard there typically are no periods without crises of some form or another. These so-called 'crises' then by nature here are expected and the 'norm', and perhaps no longer considered as such, but are innate features of living in one of the world's harshest environments.

Historically this has manifested as a culture of ingenuity and innovation that persists outside metropolitan regions through necessity. These challenges, mostly environmentally related, have shaped technological advancement that will continue despite any one specific 'time of crisis' as there isn't any one, but many.

If there wasn't challenge, or 'crisis' of some sort going on, what motivation would there be for any advancement at all?

However,
it's my contention, related more to the political thread context rather than the price of fuel, that our previous government through interference with industry, both directly & indirectly by excessive regulation and taxation, poor infrastructure planning, and structuring of a multi-tiered bureaucratic welfare system that promotes skill shortages and general social degeneration, has undermined this heritage of ingenuity and technological advancement.

This perhaps then may be our first 'real' crisis.

Jason


Ahhh, I think I understand what you mean now. Necessity is the mother of invention.

I guess the difference is that I don't consider pre-existing environmental conditions to be a crisis.



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