gender, sex, or?

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Snagletooth

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Message 728547 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 4:32:33 UTC - in response to Message 727133.  

I've always been slightly puzzled by this response so hopefully one of you can explain it to me. When you ask that homosexuals "not push their sexuality on me" is it that you don't want to be exposed to any evidence of their sexuality at all or that would be fine as long as they never ask you out?


The latter!

They are human, with all that goes with that.

Friendship could be part of that relationship, if that is the way it develops. But, your latter comment is the point, not evidence of their sexuality.

Any evidence will not phase me, but I am straight and I would not like to offend if the latter is likely to happen.


I assume you mean you would not like to hurt or embarrass them by turning them down? I think Angus has the right idea here:
You should not feel any different whether it's a guy or a girl (or former guy or girl) that expresses interest, and to not allow them the right to express it. Otherwise, you're then expecting them to know your preferences somehow. Somewhat of a double standard, I think. You want a gay to know you're straight so they won't "bother" you, but you don't want to know their preferences.

Regardless of who expresses interest, you politely refuse if you are not interested in return. No one has to wear a sign saying "Straight", "Gay", "Transgender" or any other way of putting them into a box.


Instead of focusing on why you are not interested in a particular suitor perhaps you could fall back on the "treat others as you would like to be treated" rule. If you have ever been rejected or had to reject someone else for reasons other than gender you probably already know, or at least have the basis for working out, an appropriate respectful response.

As an aside, I read that over half of us meet our mates at work so aside from harassment and overtly sexual behavior I think we shouldn't be surprised that we might have to occasionally reject someone with whom we then have to maintain a good working relationship.

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Message 728552 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 4:49:44 UTC - in response to Message 726861.  

I really have no issue with anyones choice of a partner in life. If that person is the same sex, yep I'm ok with that. If the person wants to change their body then again, I'm fine with that as well.

I have a few male and female friends who are gay, and I have no problems with their choice. I do remember sitting at a large pub in Sydney with my fiancee and one of her gay friends. Her friend and I were commenting to each other on all the attractive women that entered the bar, much to the horror of my fiancee

What I dont like is any person that hates a particular sex because of eithor their own sexuality, or something that has happened in the past. One of out Gay female friends met a girl & introduced her to us after they had been dating for about 3 months - she openly said she hated men, we were all pigs, and sat in my house for the next few minutes abusing and belittling me and my son... about 5 minutes later she was ordered out of my house and told in no uncertain terms that she was not welcome. I dont think that was a sexuality thing, just a personality disorder (i.e. she didnt have one)

I treat every person as a person - I wont dislike you because of your sex, race, sexuality, looks, gender reassignment etc. If, picking a name out of the list, I did not like Blurf there would be a reason - something they said, did etc, not any physical, race, sexual issue.
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Message 728613 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 10:18:09 UTC - in response to Message 728552.  
Last modified: 21 Mar 2008, 10:21:05 UTC

I really have no issue with anyones choice of a partner in life. If that person is the same sex, yep I'm ok with that.

I can certainly accept that... :-)

If the person wants to change their body then again, I'm fine with that as well.

I don't know anyone personally, but I think I would be friends with anyone in this situation

I have a few male and female friends who are gay, and I have no problems with their choice.


friend and I were commenting to each other on all the attractive women that entered the bar,

I've been in this situation, not only at my job, but also with some of my mom's friends.

Blurf


there would be a reason - something they said, did etc, not any physical, race, sexual issue.

"Why hate someone [for their race] when there are so many other reasons to hate someone?"- Dennis Miller, during an appearance on 'The Tonight Show with Jay Leno', 2007
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Message 728638 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 11:59:46 UTC - in response to Message 728552.  
Last modified: 21 Mar 2008, 12:03:04 UTC

I really have no issue with anyones choice of a partner in life. If that person is the same sex, yep I'm ok with that. If the person wants to change their body then again, I'm fine with that as well.


I agree with you 100%. I have some friends that are gay. As long as they don't throw it in my or my family's face there's no problem. Friendship is based on mutural respect for those that you associate with.

I've only had 1 friend that considered himself transgendered. This was a man I had know for 15 years. Watched him go through 2 bad marriages and the trama that entailed. Specially with his kids. He was a close friend of the family and used to come and celebrate holidays with my family (including my mom). He left and went back home for 6 months and when he returned he said he needed to talk with us. Needless I was in shock when he came to our house dressed as a woman. Our sons were a lot younger then and wanted to know why Uncle so and so was dressed as a woman. That wasnt' a very easy discussion to have. He and I had a business relation that we'd been working on for over 2 years and I really tried to accept that what he was doing was right. I heard all the arguements, I accepted that things like this happen. One night he told my wife that he'd only decided after all these years that the only way he could be happy was to be himself. That was reasonable but uncomfortable. A couple of weeks later at work he wanted to talk about the changes he was going through and that he was planning a sex change operation. As a close friend I couldn't help but try to understand and support him in his pursuit of happiness. That was until he told me the real reason he was going through all this.
After explaining in front of my wife and I that he had been abused as a kid for wanting to do girlie thing, etc etc. I was really agreeing with him. But when we were alone and he told me that after being mistreated by all the women he'd met, married, etc and that he'd figured they had it so easy that he decided the only way he could be happy was to be on the other end and be a woman! He said this was his way of getting back at them! Said as a woman he would be allowed to use womens restrooms and get to be closer to them. When I said , you know if I had 2 young daughters the last thing I would want to think about is someone with that attitude laying in wait, with God knows what on their mind in a ladies restroom. His response was that my daughters and wife wouldn't have anything to worry about because he'd just be another woman in the restroom and that maybe my wife would be able to go shopping with him and give him pointers. Needless to say I was extremely upset and what I preceived to be a ruse. When we parted ways his last words to me where he only wanted a man to take care of him! Apparently it not only affected our friendship but that of everyone who knew him around this area and he decided to move and start his life over somewhere else with a clean slate. Last time I heard from him he'd just gotten back from Thailand after having surgery. I told him I wished him the best and a speedy recovery. I haven't heard from him/her/or whatever since.

You know, I can accept that Mother Nature screws up sometimes. And that people really may be born in the wrong body or that biologiacally they are not "normal" for lack of a better word in their sexual preferernces. BUT and I mean but to have hear this reason from a close friend sort of colored my thinking a bit. I think he demeans those that really have a problem. It makes me wonder about all those other people out there that were happily married, got divorced and decided that they were latent homosexuals. How many really do have a twist of fate with Mother Nature and how many are just unhappy with their present situation and that behavioral change is only an excuse to either get back at their families or whatever they truely think the reasons are.

I jus think its sad that even the ones that really do have a legitimate reason for being the way they are overshadowed by the phonies.
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Message 728643 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 12:21:54 UTC - in response to Message 728638.  

A couple of weeks later at work he wanted to talk about the changes he was going through and that he was planning a sex change operation. As a close friend I couldn't help but try to understand and support him in his pursuit of happiness. That was until he told me the real reason he was going through all this.


After reading that post I wonder if your "friend" really was doing it for the right reasons, or those that he considered might be the best option... If a person honestly considers himself to be a woman trapped in a mans body, or vice versa, then I'm all for corrective surgery (aka Gender reassignment), but if they simply have a mental issue because they feel that they dont fit in, or want to be like the other sex, then I have to wonder if thats the right thing to do?

I think theres a fine line to say "I'm a woman, but I was born with a penis" compared to, "I am a man and I like men, and I really envy Jenny because all the guys like her. I might get my penis converted to a Vagina to be like her".

My wife watches all the adoption (Yeah we are Both adopted - odd story there, but maybe in another post lol), divorce, gay, lesbian, family, etc shows on pay TV. I think she needs a job, but besides that, there's the odd one on TV when I'm home that I really think the person in question needs a slap with reality rather than the fairy-tale world they seem to want to live in...


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Message 728658 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 14:05:00 UTC - in response to Message 728643.  
Last modified: 21 Mar 2008, 14:28:22 UTC

A couple of weeks later at work he wanted to talk about the changes he was going through and that he was planning a sex change operation. As a close friend I couldn't help but try to understand and support him in his pursuit of happiness. That was until he told me the real reason he was going through all this.


After reading that post I wonder if your "friend" really was doing it for the right reasons, or those that he considered might be the best option... If a person honestly considers himself to be a woman trapped in a mans body, or vice versa, then I'm all for corrective surgery (aka Gender reassignment), but if they simply have a mental issue because they feel that they dont fit in, or want to be like the other sex, then I have to wonder if thats the right thing to do?

I think theres a fine line to say "I'm a woman, but I was born with a penis" compared to, "I am a man and I like men, and I really envy Jenny because all the guys like her. I might get my penis converted to a Vagina to be like her".

(AFAIK) That's why usually a person claiming to be transgendered has to go through a long and severe psychological examination before they are allowed to get The Operation, getting the permission by the psychologist only if they can be verified as really transgendered.
This point given I'm getting the impression after reading your post, that your friend might not have passed the psychological examinations, that'S why he needed to go to Thailand to have the operation done there.
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Message 728704 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 16:03:58 UTC - in response to Message 726942.  

the world isn´t that easy these days.

Ever ask yourself 'why' after 2000 years of simplicity things have suddenly become so complicated... ;)

(The SIMPLE answer: When you screw with nature, nature will screw with you.)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 728745 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 17:57:22 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2008, 17:59:27 UTC

Again, I have to point out that I am in favor of freedom of choice....

However, excluding hermaphrodites, is there really any scientific evidence to suggest that mother nature made a "mistake" with those wishing to have a sex change operation as opposed to that individual simply not being satisfied with the cards they have been dealt in life be it due to abuse, neglect, or some other external factor?


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Message 728757 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 18:44:05 UTC - in response to Message 728745.  

is there really any scientific evidence to suggest that mother nature made a "mistake"

'Mother nature' didn't make any mistakes, we did it to ourselves... ;)

(I'm sure it had nothing to do with the 60s and 70s. < insert sarcasm tag here >)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 728761 - Posted: 21 Mar 2008, 18:58:56 UTC

With him being a long close personal friend it was difficult at best to accept that "maybe" he was right..... When he came out and said in private why he was doing it, it took away every valid reason I used to accept the idea in the first place.

The good that came out of it, is that I can see that there are others that really do face this problem. But I dont' think I'll be running around asking friends and aquaintances what their birth sex was......
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Message 728870 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 0:23:42 UTC - in response to Message 728745.  

Again, I have to point out that I am in favor of freedom of choice....

However, excluding hermaphrodites, is there really any scientific evidence to suggest that mother nature made a "mistake" with those wishing to have a sex change operation as opposed to that individual simply not being satisfied with the cards they have been dealt in life be it due to abuse, neglect, or some other external factor?



Well, yes, there have been studies. Years ago, when I was trying to 'bring myself upto speed', I can remember coming across studies that had been conducted in Holland and Scandinavia, which, amongst other things, involved micro-sectioning of the Brain (obviously of the deceased!) as well as MRI scans on the living. Even in the cases of those who had not been prescribed HRT, the brain more closely resembled a female brain, than a male brain - in the case of Trans-gendered M-F subjects. As incredible as Mother Nature is, mistakes are made - you only have to look at the instances of 'Siamese Twins', as an example, to see that.

Of course, there are people who will say that they are TG, because they are 'gay', like wearing 'women's clothing' and have a sort of 'guilt complex' about that. There was a recent case in the UK, where someone made a complaint about a Consultant Psychiatrist, some time after they had consented to Gender Re-assignment Surgery! Thats probably an extreme example of someone deluding themselves and not being 100% honest with themselves and the Psychiatrist. In this particular case, the Psychiatrist was found to be in the wrong! GIGO I have no sympathy at all for anyone like that. Its not as if, things are the same as they were, in the days of Alan Turing, is it? Mother Nature makes mistakes, whilst people can delude themselves without her help.




Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive!
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Message 728884 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 0:47:46 UTC - in response to Message 728870.  

Mother Nature makes mistakes, whilst people can delude themselves without her help.

Odd that 'mother nature' seems to be progressively making more 'mistakes' as time goes on... ;)

(However, I agree with the second half of your statement, which is also progressively increasing as time goes on.)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 728946 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 3:50:19 UTC - in response to Message 728613.  

In response to a PM from someone about my post above, I would like to take this chance to state:
A line was left out of that post, that I didn't realize until today. As a result, an impression can form that I was implying that the hard-working Blurf was the direct source of some of the quotes I used. That was not my intent. The best I can say is I was in a rush, was somewhat tired from a long day at work, and have forgotten in the intervening day what point I was thinking of making in the aforementioned previous post. Blurf, I'm sorry.

Jeff D.
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Message 728947 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 4:00:59 UTC

So as not to hijack from the thread's intent, I'll just say Thanks Jldun..


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Message 728962 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 6:30:52 UTC - in response to Message 728884.  

Odd that 'mother nature' seems to be progressively making more 'mistakes' as time goes on... ;)

(However, I agree with the second half of your statement, which is also progressively increasing as time goes on.)


Is it really any wonder with all the chemicals in our food, pollution in the environment? It really was a misnomer when I stated Mother Nature. We bring a lot of this on oursleves.


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Message 728974 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 7:46:36 UTC - in response to Message 728962.  

Odd that 'mother nature' seems to be progressively making more 'mistakes' as time goes on... ;)

(However, I agree with the second half of your statement, which is also progressively increasing as time goes on.)


Is it really any wonder with all the chemicals in our food, pollution in the environment? It really was a misnomer when I stated Mother Nature. We bring a lot of this on oursleves.



Indeed, I can remember seeing somewhere, that fish are 'changing sex' due to pollution. You may laugh, but follow through with the thought of severely depleted fish stocks and it won't be too long before you'll be glad that you're not young!
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Message 728989 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 9:12:45 UTC - in response to Message 728974.  
Last modified: 22 Mar 2008, 9:14:39 UTC

Indeed, I can remember seeing somewhere, that fish are 'changing sex' due to pollution. You may laugh, but follow through with the thought of severely depleted fish stocks and it won't be too long before you'll be glad that you're not young!



I already am.... I'm more concerned about what we've left for our children and grandkids.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-01/19/content_5628112.htm is a link to an article about fish as you described. It starts off with one in China, but lists a number of others around the world and some of the causes or presumed causes.

To get back on topic, with all of these variables it doesn't take much of a stretch to link them to humans and possible causes for "abnormal" traits. (for lack of a better terminology) I've read in some scientific journals where its already been shown to have the same sort of abnormalities in mammals (rodents and other small mammals) as well as frogs. With frogs it seems to be even more agressive than with fish.
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Message 729000 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 9:45:52 UTC
Last modified: 22 Mar 2008, 9:49:48 UTC

Just got a link to a story (I won't either provide the title nor the link since it's from an adult story site)
(A mother is visiting a psychotherapist with her child, who seems to have a gender identity crisis, when Kelly , the receptionist, dropped the information that this doctor were a transsexual herself. Of course this caused reservations at the patient's mother.)
At the next appointment, the doctor said:
"[...] my being transgendered is not a secret. I just assumed that you knew. That is the reason most of my transgendered patients come to me and feel comfortable working with me, because we have a common understanding of the issues. If we were little kids, I'd use the playground retort to an insult, that it takes one to know one."
[...]
"I don't understand Doctor, Jenny, you look so..." I couldn't get myself to say the words. Realistic, convincing, I finally came up with "... feminine".
"Amazing what a boatload of hormones, a couple of bags of silicone and the removal of some superfluous plumbing can do for you," she retorted.
I couldn't help myself, I cracked up.
"None of that would make a man a woman," I finally got out. "He'd just be a very emotional soprano with a lumpy chest [...]"


Or as the last sentence in that article says, which is quoted in wikipedia:
...I don't have a problem with men disposing of their genitals, but it does not make them women, in the same way that shoving a bit of vacuum hose down your 501s does not make you a man.

So what makes a person a man or a woman - if not the "plumbing"?

Since I know a few post-operation transsexual people myself, I can just agree with these statements quoted above. None of them acts like a Eunuch with breasts, but they are acting like any naturally born women, fitting to their new appearance. Actually one of them is so convincing female, I didn't believe at first that it was the same person I knew as male before - while in my opinion another one (my former class-mate) might need a facial softening to become fully acceptable as a woman...

Back to the story, this doctor explains:
"[...]Being transgendered is a state of mind, not body. Physical appearance simply helps others to relate to you in the proper perspective, which brings us full circle to your son's behavior."


That made me wonder: Do the transgendered simply undergo this (not just risk-less) operation because our society rather accepts trans-men and trans-women than men who act female and women who act male? Are the gender-roles still so deep inside our minds that we cannot accept people who are different in gender meanings, even call them sick or pervert? Is it the Catholic heritage considering them as acting against God's commandments?

There have been many transgendered persons in other cultures throughout the ages since the times of the Code of Hammurabi (who ruled ca. 1796 BC – 1750 BC in ancient Babylon), even the Native Americans had their share (Two-Spirit). These cultures accepted their "being different" and made them part of the society. So the argument of "transgenderism being just an invention of recent times" isn't working.

So why are "WE" (the western civilizations) do not accept them these days?
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Message 729170 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 18:02:31 UTC - in response to Message 728989.  

I'm more concerned about what we've left for our children and grandkids.

Got a sticky note handy? ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 729190 - Posted: 22 Mar 2008, 19:46:49 UTC - in response to Message 728870.  


Well, yes, there have been studies. Years ago, when I was trying to 'bring myself upto speed', I can remember coming across studies that had been conducted in Holland and Scandinavia, which, amongst other things, involved micro-sectioning of the Brain (obviously of the deceased!) as well as MRI scans on the living. Even in the cases of those who had not been prescribed HRT, the brain more closely resembled a female brain, than a male brain - in the case of Trans-gendered M-F subjects. As incredible as Mother Nature is, mistakes are made - you only have to look at the instances of 'Siamese Twins', as an example, to see that.



Would be very interested in viewing this source if you could locate it again.

Not to change the subject, but I find it interesting that people tend to scoff when this very same type of research suggests physical rather than cultural differences between race yet no one bats and eye when it's used to support homosexuality...


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