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![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
blah blah blah... ;) ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 23 Oct 07 Posts: 2417 Credit: 18,192,122 RAC: 59 ![]() ![]() |
Scary You draw an unfair comparison by using computers and shoes as an example for competition in the marketplace. No one in their right mind, no matter how much they may want them, would put themself in a position of bankruptcy and lifelong debt for a computer or a pair of shoes. In a matter of life or death, material wealth means nothing and the person suffering through a health crisis will spend every penny they've worked hard for all their lives, remortgage their home, sell off assets and borrow as much as the moneylenders will allow to stay alive. Healthcare is too important an issue to leave in the hands of the market. Those providers of private healthcare know people's desperation at times like these and have absolutely no incentive to reduce costs when the patient, driven by that desperation, will go to extreme levels of debt to pay for the care. Life is a gift and shouldn't be governed by one's level of wealth. |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Scary Firstly, my post was not my own and is a paste of another but I endorse every last word of it. The fact that life is precious is precisely why it shouldn't be governed and the lifeblood of life, which is work, stolen away in the name of preserving it. You state that healthcare is too important to be left in the 'hands of the market'. For the very reason that health is more important than footwear is why I will insist that it remain free of corruptive and destructive government tyranny. Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 3131 Credit: 302,569 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Scary The problem with this statement is that if health care were produced like computers, and shoes, and mobile phones, no one would ever have to "put themself in a position of bankruptcy and lifelong debt." (sic) Why? Because these eeeevil corporations that you so dislike are trying like hell to slaughter each other. In doing so, they drive costs down such that your graphics card or mobile phone probably has more computing power than all of the Apollo missions combined. There's no reason health care needs to be any different because most of health care is far far more easily produced than the extremely complex electronic devices that are sold for little more than pennies. In a matter of life or death, material wealth means nothing and the person suffering through a health crisis will spend every penny they've worked hard for all their lives, remortgage their home, sell off assets and borrow as much as the moneylenders will allow to stay alive. Which only has to happen because the gov't has strangled the system and driven costs through the roof. Why can a simple syringe, consisting of four parts, a tube, plunger, o-ring, and a needle, cost more on a hospital bill than than a mobile phone that cost millions upon millions to develop and produce? Because the gov't has choked the system to death. If they could get almost all of the care they needed at Wal-mart, going bankrupt wouldn't be an issue. Healthcare is too important an issue to leave in the hands of the market. Yay, and since that market has been regulated and meddled to death, the costs of health care is simply beyond the means of poor people. Yet, those very same people can afford mobile phones, color televisions, computers, et cetera. Those providers of private healthcare know people's desperation at times like these and have absolutely no incentive to reduce costs when the patient, driven by that desperation, will go to extreme levels of debt to pay for the care. They wouldn't have to do that, any more than they have to go to extreme levels of debt to pay for a mobile phone and service. Why? Because syringes, and drugs, and almost all of health care is no where near as complex and labor intensive as personal electronics. That means that it's easy to drive the costs down, especially as companies compete to put the other out of business. If Sears is charging $2.00 for for a 30 day supply of Vanco, Wal-Mart will do it for $1.00. No one would have to go bankrupt for life saving medical treatment because the treatment does not need to be expensive at all. Life is a gift and shouldn't be governed by one's level of wealth. And yet, that's exactly what you've got, courtesy of the gov't meddling in it. The very rich ca buy whatever health care they wish. The poor get to go sit around in emergency rooms and pray because they cannot afford any of it. Luckily they have their personal electronic devices to pass the time. You should be thrilled. Cordially, Rush elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com Remove the obvious... ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
Luckily they have their personal electronic devices to pass the time. Actually, It's big brother that should be thrilled... It's amazing how the necessities of life such as food clothing shelter and health care have become so overpriced while all those little electronic monitoring and tracking gadgets have become so affordable... ;) ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0 |
Luckily they have their personal electronic devices to pass the time. Do you feel watched, Jeffrey? Do you feel Big Brother is breathing in your neck? ;-D "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
Do you feel watched, Jeffrey? Do you feel Big Brother is breathing in your neck? I feel like a 'lab rat'... ;) (But of course they are only trying to 'help' us proles... Just like O'Brian 'helped' Winston.) ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 Jun 01 Posts: 21804 Credit: 2,815,091 RAC: 0 ![]() |
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![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 23 Oct 07 Posts: 2417 Credit: 18,192,122 RAC: 59 ![]() ![]() |
Scary Personal electronics are optional, healthcare isn't. As I stated, there is no incentive to drive costs down when the user/payer is desperate for the service. And it's not exactly what I've got because I am Canadian with single payer healthcare. I'll never lose my house due to overwhelming medical bills. |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Scary You are neglecting a critical issue. The economics of Health 'care' are no different from the economics of 'shoe care'. Or.....won ton soup feeding 'care'. or 'ceramic decoration care'. The economics of these things are no different from another. A destructive policy in the footwear business follows the same principles that a destructive policy in the healthScare business. You just have a preference for state control over one instead of the other. Your OWN COUNTRY's health Scare system is totally destroyed thanks to the things you advocate being implemented. In the U.S. about half of our healthScare system is nationalized already....leading to the 'crisis' that you moan about incessantly. Yet you wish vehemently for more of the disease that made the problems instead of supporting privatizing it and fixing it. Can your insistence on these programs honestly be regarded as an honest error anymore or are you just motivated by anti man type ethics? I've gone down this road with you before, R.Waite. You insist on nationalizing almost all major industries even though throughout history numerous examples exist that clearly show these types of plans are always utter failures. They're failures economically and failures in terms of literal body counts. You still insist though, don't you? The ethics of your altruism and the ethics of egoism are perfectly contrasted. Yours=death. Mine=life. How long can you evade the obvious? Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 3131 Credit: 302,569 RAC: 0 ![]() |
No one in their right mind, no matter how much they may want them, would put themself in a position of bankruptcy and lifelong debt for a computer or a pair of shoes. You asked, so here are some more examples where you completely and utterly avoided the points made (above) and simply repeated yourself (below). Personal electronics are optional, healthcare isn't. Yay!!! Robert W. stated something!!! Oh, well, since you stated it again, it simply must be true, right??? I mean, now it's all perfectly clear because you repeated yourself without any analysis, reasoning, or commentary. I replied to this specifically. There is every incentive to drive costs down. Why? Because syringes, and drugs, and almost all of health care is nowhere near as complex and labor intensive as personal electronics. That means that it's easy to drive the costs down, especially as companies compete to put the other out of business. If Sears is charging $2.00 for for a 30 day supply of Vanco, Wal-Mart will do it for $1.00. No one would have to go bankrupt for life saving medical treatment because the treatment does not need to be expensive at all. The incentive is that there are thousands and thousands of retailers that are competing for your business. This was the relevant part: "If Sears is charging $2.00 for for a 30 day supply of Vanco, Wal-Mart will do it for $1.00." Why? They do it everyday as much as they can, and they are struggling to do it now. Right this instant, Wal-Mart offers over 360 prescription drugs at only $4 per 30-day supply. That's regardless of insurance or not, and is below the average co-pay of $15 - $20. That puts massive pressure on other retailers to follow suit and drives costs down. And it's not exactly what I've got because I am Canadian with single payer healthcare. Neither would anyone else if health care did not suffer from massive over-regulation and monopolistic practices. Hey, if the U.S. gov't ever relents, and allows American consumers to re-import drugs from wherever they want, do you think the Canadian heath care system will cost you far far more, or do you think it will stay the same...? Cordially, Rush elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com Remove the obvious... ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Can't wait until you and I get to Barbados. Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
As I stated, there is no incentive to drive costs down when the user/payer is desperate for the service. Not only that, but the capitalistic principle of supply and demand is incentive to drive costs up! ;) (Capitalists prey on the needs of their fellow man.) ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0 ![]() |
As I stated, there is no incentive to drive costs down when the user/payer is desperate for the service. Price pressures are influenced by competitors, or the threat of competitors, in the marketplace. Yes, there's always an incentive to drive costs down. To claim otherwise would be to assert that there's only upward pressure on healthScare prices. And if that were true bandaids and pain pills would cost bajillions. How you could believe that 'supply and demand' is an incentive to drive costs up is beyond me. In fact, supply and demand is not a capitalistic principle per se. It exists in all economies. However, in socialized or fascist economies where it is ignored or evaded the results are disastrous. Costs rise while availability declines. Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
Price pressures are influenced by competitors, or the threat of competitors, in the marketplace. In theory... But oddly enough, when those 'competitors' are friends, and have been friends for a lifetime, and continue to collectively squash any emerging threats, cost becomes nothing more than an agreed upon value... Maybe you haven't noticed, but ALL huge corporations come in pairs... ;) Examples: Apple vs Microsoft Ford vs Chevy Pepsi vs CocaCola Boing vs Lockheed Martin McAfee vs Symantec Dell vs Gateway Norelco vs Braun Casio vs Seiko Nintendo vs Sega (It's an elitists game of pillage, nothing more.) ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Price pressures are influenced by competitors, or the threat of competitors, in the marketplace. But Jeffrey, none of your above examples are true. Even if you were to post examples where only 2 competitors existed it wouldn't support your contention. I'll tell you what though, just advocate for the state to own and run all businesses and industries as an alternative. That way you'd just have one supplier with noone to compete with. Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
But Jeffrey, none of your above examples are true. More examples: Duracell vs Energizer Haynes vs Fruit of the Loom FedEx vs UPS Schwinn vs Huffy Mongoose vs Cannondale Midas vs Meineke Ragu vs Prego Starkist vs Bumblebee Skoal vs Copenhagen Speed Stick vs Right Guard Sirius vs XM Radio Direct TV vs Dish Network Scope vs Listerine Wahl vs Conair Visa vs Mastercard American vs Delta And of course: Democrat vs Republican How do you explain all this? Coincidence? ;) (Your 'system' is but childs play for me.) ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0 ![]() |
But Jeffrey, none of your above examples are true. None of what you have stated are examples of 2-1 competetorship. Except for the last which is a peculiar example of American political parties and not businesses. Jeffrey, I know you endorse the 'lying part of islam from the koran since you've stated it is 'ok to lie to hurt or to the infidels' but you shouldn't expect expect any credibility on this board I'm not really shocked that no other posters, being mostly liberals and other sundry riff raff that sympathizes with the anti-american crowd have -not called you on your blatant dishonest and outright lies. You , after all are the self proclaimed anti man. You are the anti seti, anti america, anti atheist, anti christian, anti reason, anti logic, anti factual heckler.... Guess if I belonged to the right 'team' it would be a different story....you know....the team where they only point out lies and falsehoods based upon who their friends are? ....yeah, that one. Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! ![]() |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 16 Aug 04 Posts: 7472 Credit: 94,252 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Some of us just choose to stay out of it. Air Cold, the blade stops; from silent stone, Death is preordained ![]() Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0 ![]() |
Some of us just choose to stay out of it. But you're already in it. You chose . Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! ![]() |
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