What's hard for you to accept about expecting men and women to complete the jobs they volunteered to perform and holding them legally responsible for breeching the contract they signed of their own freewill?

Even in military service there are laws to uphold and situations where you are forced to disobey your superior. It's much more easier to talk about a single issue, but someone might argue about the whole assignment. There are rules how to handle such situations, though (not saying that there are usually big chances of success, though) and desertion is not an option, that's true.

I agree 100%, given special circumstances and proper procedures one can "get out of a contract" without being in breech of said contract, and at no time does desertion fall into that category.

KWSN - MajorKong, your posts are usually pretty interesting and intelligent. Just don't get why you call the iraq deserters cowards. There are for sure some cowards amongst them, but you should not generalize. In fact I think that you should enlist and try it out yourself. Come back and speak of cowards again and I will respect your opinion. And yes, I have served - stayed even a year longer to make my "officer of the reserve".

ALL deserters are cowards, in most cases, criminals, and your service is irrelevant to this point.

Should one smoke dope or engage in homosexual activity before forming their own opinions of right and wrong, even though the law is quite specific concerning desertion, as you have implied with your suggestion of enlistment?

I bet you vote Democrat too, huh?

BrainSmashR, just assuming you are one of that conservative, patriotic guys like myself. But if you really love your country you need to make sure no one is just abusing it for it's personal profit (even if he is the president and claims so)and the values the US were built upon are still valid. Elsewise that Democrat fighting for the US to stay the way it was meant to be is more of a patriot then you are. No insult intended, just think about it.

Yes well, having been alive since the very early 1970's, I've witnessed more than enough acts of global terrorism perpetrated by radical muslims from the middle east to have "made sure" what agenda I want my elected leaders to persue.

BTW, catering to minorities and the poor is NEVER what this country was about....

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BTW, catering to minorities and the poor is NEVER what this country was about....

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."


Anyone know where this is inscribed?


P.S. : Thanks Mac!

P.S.S : Not sure why you refused to see I wasn't condoning deserters, BrainSmashR, but I guess you needed to have a fight. Hopefully you now see what I actually said and can move on with the topic.


Meanwhile... back to the 911 thread...

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Sorry that the topic is getting a bit out of hand, Mr. Gray.
I have to admit that I did not even have the time to watch the film yet since work keeps me terribly busy (darn employees :p). But I promise to do so, so I can finally comment really on the topic :)

BTW, catering to minorities and the poor is NEVER what this country was about....

BrainSmashR, I am talking about the average guy, the majority.
If you don't watch it you'll work for even lesser wages and give away your freedom just because the "think - tanks" are quite smart when it comes to use fear as method of suppression. They also use the "if you don't ... then you are no good american!" - therefore 9-11 was the ideal opportunity to cut down civil rights and start "big brothering".

Btw. I, too, fear radical muslims. But the only way to fight them is to improve the standard of living in the region. If people have something to loose and are satisfied they will no longer support terrorists. So you need to help them in your own interest. And - to be honest - if any country would occupy the US or deal with the US the way f.e. Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan are dealt with right now I am sure people would use the tools they have to fight the oppressors.

Things like the 9-11 can afaik not be justified by the Koran and those terrorists and suicide bombers await hell and not heaven.
Still they are told the opposite.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

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Rowe Arrested Despite Honorable Discharge Papers

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Thursday, July 26, 2007

Korey Rowe, the Afghanistan and Iraq combat veteran and producer of Loose Change, who was arrested on Monday under charges of desertion, presented his honorable discharge papers to the arresting officers and yet was grabbed after a sophisticated operation where police staked out his house from the woods and cut his phone lines.

Rowe was interviewed about the events today for a Fox News report.

Korey Rowe, 24, who served with the 101st Airborne in Afghanistan and Iraq, told FOXNews.com that he was honorably discharged from the military 18 months ago — which he said he explained to sheriffs when they pounded on his door late Monday night.

“When they came to my house, I showed them my paperwork,” Rowe said. “The cops said, 'You’re still in the system.'”

Rowe was turned over to officials at Fort Drum — the closest military base — who then booked him on a flight to Fort Campbell, Ky., where his unit is based, to try to straighten out why the military issued a warrant for his arrest.

“A warrant for my arrest came down and showed up on the sheriff’s desk,” Rowe said. “Where it came from and why it showed up all of a sudden is a mystery to me.”

Rowe said he was sitting in his living room watching the show “Cops” and drinking a beer Monday night when police banged on the door.

“I thought it was the TV,” he said. “There was f-----g mad cops out there. I thought, here we go.”

There were at least five sheriffs on hand for his arrest, Rowe said. They told him he had an active-duty warrant from the military.

“They pulled a whole operation. They cut my phone lines. They came from the woods. It was crazy — it was ridiculous,” he said.

Rowe shared further details with us about the sequence of events than is revealed in the Fox News article.

According to Rowe, Army officials at Fort Drum, where Rowe was held for a day and a half, seemed uninterested in the case until their phone lines were incinerated by a barrage of calls from listeners who responded to our call to action yesterday morning.

It was at that point that officials checked into Rowe's record and immediately confirmed that he had received an honorable discharge and told Rowe he was free to leave, and even offered to pay his way to get back to New York. They were baffled as to why a warrant would be out for his arrest when he had clearly been given permission to leave the Army in 2005.

It was Korey Rowe's personal decision to travel on to Fort Campbell Kentucky in an attempt to ensure his name was completely expunged from the system and that such events would not repeat for a third time, with Rowe having been arrested once before under a similar pretext.

Rowe was able to board an airplane without being apprehended, as he had been many times before the incident, because there has never been a warrant against his name in the database.

Though Korey Rowe puts the arrest down to a probable "administrative error", many in the 9/11 truth movement will be wondering if this was part of a pre-emptive strategy to discredit the upcoming cinematic release of Loose Change Final Cut.

The documentary is set to include explosive new interviews that will shake the political spectrum to the core.

The nature of the arrest certainly has Army intelligence planning written all over it and we will be certain to share more details upon Korey Rowe's return from Kentucky, which is expected to be in around a week's time.
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This one's for you jerks that called him a coward. FU!

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MrGray, I must thank you for giving me the opportunity to watch this film. I have always been interested in the details of the 9/11 attack, but since I just finished school, I had no time to bother myself with this topic, and as an Austrian, I'm - unlike most of you - not really affected by the incidents.
While at school, I never heard of any of these "conspiracy theories", but instead we were all taught what the American mainstream media published. Until recently, no person I know has heard of any inconsistencies in the official story.

Anyway, I like that the film tells us to investigate ourselves. However, if I really want to investigate myself, I also need to know all the arguments against the theories proposed in the film. Do you have any idea where I can find some? There ought to be some counter-arguments, maybe even some convincing ones.

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I'm - unlike most of you - not really affected by the incidents

i believe that 'everybody' - that's lives on THIS Planet - is actually affected - in essence . . . (think 'bout it) . . . hmmm?

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BOINC Wiki . . .

Science Status Page . . .

i believe that 'everybody' - that's lives on THIS Planet - is actually affected - in essence . . . (think 'bout it) . . . hmmm?

I haven't noticed any change in my life nor have I changed my opinion on the USA, Islam or anything else, so I can rightfully say it doesn't really affect me personally.
Remember, I'm talking about the 9/11 incident. If we were talking about terrorism in general, your statement may be true.

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"Loose Change"

This "film" is just another piece of opportunistic rubbish. It used to anger me when things were taken so out of context and propped up on those that lost their lives on 9-11-01 for commercial gain. However, I've come to realize that the people that produce (and believe) this trash aren't people that make any difference in this world. They are people that were eating potato chips, while watching CNN, on 9-11-01.

So many instant "experts" are made by adding Google.

I'll just say that I personally know a few people that handled not only debris, but also bodily remains. As for myself, I was in Saudi Arabia by September 14th.

I don't see any experts here,

Just people noticing anomalies in the official story and getting together to analyze it, together. No one here is saying the data here is absolutely, without any doubt, the truth. We're just having a look at the situation of the world since the event, and the event itself.

I find many people tend to attack the conversations and participants, without ever raising a single point against the data. This is fine because it shows a complete spectrum of opinions. This is exactly what is needed. No one likes to be called a potato chip eating degenerate, but it is your opinion. I just wish some would look into it so we can converse intelligently. Credit or discredit.

Thanks to all who are simply examining this situation and sharing their findings. Your to be commended, not attacked.

However... We have to remember to look at both sides and NOT get emotional or accept anything without solid proof. Nothing wrong with discussing and getting to the bottom of something. None of us are better than anyone else. We are all equals.


More, as requested:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6387831398516462334&q=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4628461537770214767&q=en



Thanks, Gone, for the new data on Rowe.

Thanks, A/C, for the awesome quote.

Thanks, MAC, for your comments.

Thanks, Helsionium, for your inquiries.

Thanks, watCh out!, for participating.

Thanks, Free, for participating.

Thanks, Rush, for participating.

Thanks, MajorKong, for participating, even though you had the "Itchy-Scratchy" show going on in real life. (Happy Birthday!)

Thanks, zwerg8_thorin, for participating.

Thanks, popandbob, for participating.

Thanks, zwerg8_thorin, for participating.




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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Sorry that the topic is getting a bit out of hand, Mr. Gray.
I have to admit that I did not even have the time to watch the film yet since work keeps me terribly busy (darn employees :p). But I promise to do so, so I can finally comment really on the topic :)

BTW, catering to minorities and the poor is NEVER what this country was about....

BrainSmashR, I am talking about the average guy, the majority.
If you don't watch it you'll work for even lesser wages and give away your freedom just because the "think - tanks" are quite smart when it comes to use fear as method of suppression. They also use the "if you don't ... then you are no good american!" - therefore 9-11 was the ideal opportunity to cut down civil rights and start "big brothering".

Btw. I, too, fear radical muslims. But the only way to fight them is to improve the standard of living in the region. If people have something to loose and are satisfied they will no longer support terrorists. So you need to help them in your own interest. And - to be honest - if any country would occupy the US or deal with the US the way f.e. Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan are dealt with right now I am sure people would use the tools they have to fight the oppressors.

Things like the 9-11 can afaik not be justified by the Koran and those terrorists and suicide bombers await hell and not heaven.
Still they are told the opposite.

Thanks for the update, BTW, I'd rather give my entire paycheck to support the war effort and the soldiers who continue to VOLUNTEER to defend my freedom than one dime to an unemployed parasite leeching off the system.

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This one's for you jerks that called him a coward. FU!

I didn't call Rowe a coward. I referred to him as an 'alleged deserter'. He was arrested, turned over to the military, and everything was cleared up.

I did, however, call DESERTERS cowards in a subsequent post about 'what I would do'. They ARE. I did not mention Rowe in that post, nor did I even make a reference to him. No other post in this thread that has the word coward in it mentioned or refered to Rowe (except, of course, the post of yours that I am replying to).

Settle down, and get yer drawers unknotted.

My remarks were not directed towards anyone on here, but towards these tinfoil conspiracy theories.

RE: Korey Rowe

The kid claims to have been honorably discharged from the military, but was "still in the system" because of an "administrative error".

That can happen. Mistakes do happen.

However, I'm not buying it would have esculated into anything had that been the case. Being in the spotlight, he would have just made his DD214 public.

He has more dirty laundry than just from being AWOL.

KWSN - MajorKong, your posts are usually pretty interesting and intelligent. Just don't get why you call the iraq deserters cowards. There are for sure some cowards amongst them, but you should not generalize. In fact I think that you should enlist and try it out yourself. Come back and speak of cowards again and I will respect your opinion. And yes, I have served - stayed even a year longer to make my "officer of the reserve".

Me enlist? I wish. I am above the cut off age. They wouldn't take me now, even *IF* I didn't have various health problems which caused me to be turned down in the past. Military service is a tradition in my family. My father, his father, his father before him... All the way back to well before what is now the USA ever even thought about independence from Britain. I couldn't pass the physical.

As far as deserters from the military go, it doesn't matter what the circumstances. Cowards, all of 'em.

A procedure exists for getting out of the military early (before your enlistment is up) if one has developed objections to serving. I know. My brother-in-law used those procedures about a year or so ago. He *DIDN'T* desert. He stayed in doing the duties he was assigned until he was awarded his discharge. It took him about a year to get his case processed. Yeah, the discharge was OTH, but to him it was worth it.

I was NOT talking about all the service men and women that might have various issues with the military and/or its current deployments. I *am* talking about all of those that just run off and desert. Run for the border, as it were. They are cowards. I am sorry if you believe differently.

Thanks for the update, BTW, I'd rather give my entire paycheck to support the war effort and the soldiers who continue to VOLUNTEER to defend my freedom than one dime to an unemployed parasite leeching off the system.

Well, that's a good point and if you work hard for your money it sucks to see others leeching off the system, getting all for free. But in the end the unemployed parasite is not worse then any other parasite, speaking of running the US into debts, fighting a war vs terror in such a dilettantish way that terrorism is spreading instead of vanishing and thousands of soldies and hundreds of thousands civilians dying to...

*destroy weapons of MD - oh wait, there were none (and they knew it)
*fight El Kaida - oh wait, Saddam had no connection to them (and they knew it)
*bring peace, stability and democracy to the region (and they should have known what they are doing)

Well, I really think that sparing Libby and Halliburton moving HQ are maybe small puzzle pieces, but meanwhile the big picture should be getting slowly visible for everybody.

It's not only the unemployed costing the taxpayer money, it's also people who fill their purses or waste the taxpayers money.

They are cowards. I am sorry if you believe differently

Well, it's everybodie's good right to have different opinions. I just had interesting discussions in the stony road mod forums. There were guys from Israel and Lebanon posting for example right when Israel invaded. There are also US soldiers with combat experience who post there regulary. I strongly believe that if you don't experience war yourself you can't not really imagine what it means. That spoken I have no combat experience myself, but I know that theory and practice are two pair of shoes. Always.

As about desertion:

no matter what my superiors say: I would only fight and target people when I think it's right, and I would leave a battlefield when I think it's right. It's the same way I do in civil matters: I make contracts when I think they are right, and I quit them when I think they base on false [or missing] information. Both with all consequences.

IMHO even soldiers should use their heads to think for themselves, and not just as a holder for their helmets. They are having their finger on the triggers, not their superiors. And if it comes to a law-suit about war-crime, the soldiers are the first being sued, not their superiors - as it's the soldiers not their superiors who die in the field first.
In such a militaristic country I think it takes much more than a coward to desert from military service. To stand to one's own principles no matter how evil the consequences are for themselves - that's what I call BRAVE.

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Account frozen...

Loose Change Movie

1 hour 29 mins 22 secs



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The terrorists won...Bin Laden did it because we were in the Holy Land of Saudi Arabia...Since 911 we have pulled out of Saudi Arabia and have become so paranoid it actually affects daily life. What does anyone seriously think they were trying to achieve? Yea destroying a couple of buildings would bring us to our knees? Nope just what has happened.

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Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons...
And no good credit hound!

more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_%282007_film%29




.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Well, that's a good point and if you work hard for your money it sucks to see others leeching off the system, getting all for free. But in the end the unemployed parasite is not worse then any other parasite, speaking of running the US into debts, fighting a war vs terror in such a dilettantish way that terrorism is spreading instead of vanishing and thousands of soldies and hundreds of thousands civilians dying to...

The difference, of course being, that the President and members of congress are elected officials and are performing the duties the American populace asked them to perform.

*destroy weapons of MD - oh wait, there were none (and they knew it)

• Found: 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium

• Found: 1,500 gallons of chemical weapons

• Found: Roadside bomb loaded with sarin gas

• Found: 1,000 radioactive materials--ideal for radioactive dirty bombs

• Found: 17 chemical warheads--some containing cyclosarin, a nerve agent five times more powerful than sarin

*fight El Kaida - oh wait, Saddam had no connection to them (and they knew it)
*bring peace, stability and democracy to the region (and they should have known what they are doing)

That's why we're fighting a war on Terror and not just a war in Iraq....of course you couldn't deny the WMD's without this excuse either.

Well, I really think that sparing Libby and Halliburton moving HQ are maybe small puzzle pieces, but meanwhile the big picture should be getting slowly visible for everybody.

It is, you're just another foreign sack of crap who thinks his opinion matters. For instance, yo either do not understand this is an Executive Privilege exercised by every President this country has ever had, or you intentionally attempted to shed a negative light on President Bush for your own selfish motives.

There's a reason Americans don't care what foreigners think.....and let's be realistic......what are you going to do about it anyway? Hijack a plane and murder some civilians like your Muslim butt buddies?

It's not only the unemployed costing the taxpayer money, it's also people who fill their purses or waste the taxpayers money.

Yeah, as a state employee, guess which category I fit into, and as a non-American guess how insignificant your ill-informed opinions and outright lies are outside of Berkeley?

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