Hi, jjemme! Thanks for the comments. Likewise, I enjoy Duncan's posts too.

Just to touch on a few things Duncan mentioned:

- Over at SETI.ORG , there used be to be a very good .PDF document that charted out distances we could possibly see our ourselves with our current technology. I haven't looked at the chart in years, but IIRC the systems that were detectable the furthest out were some of the large radar systems used during the Cold War. Speculation here, but I'm assuming they were probably along the northern DEW line.

- I agree with Duncan that our satellite communication systems are among the least likely candidates for ETI to stumble across. To those not familiar with signaling, it may seem otherwise since these signals are (relatively) directional and "go into space", but because of they are directional very little power is used -- at least with the terminals that I'm familiar with. Like Duncan said, the beam (dependent on the size of your parabolic antenna) is so large when it hits the bird that most of it "misses" it. The signal originating from terminals that I have worked with have over 200dbm of free space loss. At interstellar scale, trying to signal would be like trying to signal someone across a daytime desert using a dim flashlight.

- There are optical SETI programs that are beginning to grassroot. These are all exciting possibilities.

Random thoughts on ETI from the years...

It pretty much just comes down to first finding a signal that doesn't appear to have originated from natural phenomena, then looking closely at that signal to see what characteristics of it changes. Then you begin to try to figure out what these changes mean. In a nutshell, that is SETI.

- I'm with others who speculate that if we find a signal that appears to have been generated by an intelligence, it is likely (but not for certain) that signal was generated for us. Because of all the factors involved, it seems more likely that we would be targeted versus just stumble across signaling intended for other purposes. How would they know to target us? Fiction often uses the plot device of them first discovering one of our signals, which drastically reduces many variables such as how far away they could be, how long ago they may have targeted us, etc. But, there are other ways we (Earth) could have become a candidate. We have just recently confirmed extrasolar planets in the last decade. At first, the discovery of extrasolar planets were of those the size of our Jovian planets, but smaller and smaller planets are being discovered. We are on the verge of being able to discover Earth-sized planets soon, especially if and when the Terrestrial Planet Finder becomes a reality. More importantly, the chemical composition of these planets are being discovered! If we are on the verge of doing these things, could ETI have discovered our Earth and it's coexistence of oxygen, methane, and water eons ago? We may have been placed on their "candidate list" long before there even were humans, let alone civilization, on the Earth. Some things that you may conclude from such a "targeted" signal is: 1. They are MUCH more advanced than we are. 2. We were placed on their "candidate list" because of our chemical composition, which means that at least they believe that one common way for life to evolve is "life as we know it" (water, carbon, etc). 3. While not for certain, it raises the probability that their chemical structure is similar to ours.

- A signal with two states (on/off) would certainly be the easiest mechanism for us to work with. That is a good possibility. I suppose you could say that such a mechanism is "digital" due to that it has only two states, but you couldn't automatically conclude it was "binary" or any other number base without prejudice. Time duration may be different between the different states as well. As Duncan said, there would be a similarity of this type of mechanism to that of our own Morse code.

- A continuous wave signal could require quite a bit of effort to figure out. Sure, look at it closely for the mechanisms of change that we are familiar (prejudiced) with, but you also need to think outside of the box. Modulation alone could be in any number of ways. Frequency (with them compensating for doppler?), amplitude (with them compensating for scintillation as it makes it way through all the dust fields out there?), phase, something more obscure like polarity?

- I think that a CW signal from an advanced civilization is likely to be "analog". That is, whichever property that they use to make representation though change of the signal will represent many discrete values. The number base used will still be unknown. Just speculation here, but I think future generations here will be going back to analog (well, "pseudo-analog"). I don't mean they will be going back to LP's and 8-tracks, but electronics (or possibly some new discipline) will become advanced enough to accommodate analog representation. We went from analog to digital with everything because of our limitations. Digital transmission and processing requires less resources, is cheaper, is loss-less due to error control mechanisms, but isn't the most efficient. We live in an analog world. One day, I think technology will evolve to allow for analog with all the current benefits of digital.

Once you have the "beacon", extrapolate patterns of "intelligence", figure out their base system (if any), etc, then you face the biggest obstacle -- understanding their way of thinking. They may give us a legend, maybe not. Their way of thinking may be so vastly different from ours that we will never understand it. We, ourselves, radiate patterns of intelligence on a carrier that ,while stimulate mental and emotional responses, don't have any well defined meaning. Many people are exposed to these "meaningless" patterns every day. I'm being exposed to it right now. It is what we call music.

Just random thoughts and musings...

--------
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the War Room!

Free, I like your nutshell for SETI. And I like your "candidate list." I always enjoy reading your ideas about finding ETI. Now wouldn't it be nice if there is an ETI out there, hopefully in our galaxy, that is just a little more advanced than we are and hungry for a neighbor. Then why not reason that this ETI has similar math and science and technology. Why not even reason that his bodily structure is similar with arms and legs and eyes, ears, and a brain. Why not even reason that this ETI may be two species similar working together to be friendly with us. Why not speculate that other ETIs have an alliance around the galaxy and they want us to join them. Let's be optimistic here. Just because we humans are divided and ready to blow ourselves into extinction, that doesn't mean that other "humans" are the way we are. If they can somehow know that we need their help right now, then I am asking them, here and now on this message board: please help us as you have probably helped others in the universe. Or at least refer us to someone nearby who can temporily set us straight so we can continue to grow by ourselves, you know, like helping an endangered species to start over. So much from this layman.

---

It is no good to try to stop knowledge from going forward. Ignorance is never better than knowledge. --- Enrico Fermi ---

This article by Seth Shostak, PhD (a Senior Astronomer at the SETI Institute) addresses several related issues while putting the scope of SETI undertaking into perspective: Is SETI Barking Up The Wrong Tree .

---

I don't know anything about the stuff you talk of except for my Seti I have on my computer..(I believe we will get a signal some day soon) I predict we will see something but won't recognize it for a while, then it will hit like a bolder from the sky as to what where looking at)My idea would be to also put light signals into space from a space satellite of some type in code numbers a or that of the alphabet.You know what...I was thinking maybe while your looking at you screen look at it like your looking at music.What if their signals are musicalor something else that we aren't able to astablish as a signal? Like when reading music.Wouldn't it be something if the signals where saying hello? while looking at my screen I seen how the lines move up and down and to me it looked like music on a sheet..And that goes by letters doesn't it.Just a thought. I see it as a code...Just a though.You know they have found weird writings of the past...Use them..Someone/Someone might write back!:)
And....
We are not alone!...I was watching just the news the other night and they talked about UFOs...That one man was trying to say those who have sightings are nuts...
I say when Army Personel of high ranks say they are here and they have proof... But of course where told to not talk.... then they arn't giving us a line of bull.
I don't give a care about what the Debunkies say..UFOs are around and our world, in some parts of the world is not excepting the truth.I believe time will tell the truth and those who don't believe will have to except it..like it or not.I just know that we have visitors.I think of it this way...We have people going up in space now and from the past..So what say's they don't?... and being much more advanced if not from the future then they have flying vehicles and can do what we can't even begin to imagine.If they did find a ship in Rowell or Aztec Mexico area then they found some of the visitors kind of knowledge and we know they did... Period!

---

Could our scientists make a light bright enough to be seen by the far-off aliens? Chances are they would be many light-years away, not just "next door". They might be 3,260 light-years away (1000 parsecs). From there the Sun would be at magnitude 14.7, just barely visible in a Celestron-14. The Earth would be at magnitude 39, probably too dim to even be seen with the Hubble (or maybe even the next space telescope) with a one-month exposure. Could they make something as bright as the Earth (as illuminated by the Sun)? Maybe they could beam a gigantic laser but then it would be pointing only at one very narrow spot in the sky. Even from that one tiny spot would that laser look as bright as the Earth? Maybe it would at exactly the color (wavelength) of the laser. The aliens would then have to be right there and looking with that special filter. That sounds pretty unlikely.

---

I don't know anything about the stuff you talk of except for my Seti I have on my computer..(I believe we will get a signal some day soon) I predict we will see something but won't recognize it for a while, then it will hit like a bolder from the sky as to what where looking at)My idea would be to also put light signals into space from a space satellite of some type in code numbers a or that of the alphabet.You know what...I was thinking maybe while your looking at you screen look at it like your looking at music.What if their signals are musicalor something else that we aren't able to astablish as a signal? Like when reading music.Wouldn't it be something if the signals where saying hello? while looking at my screen I seen how the lines move up and down and to me it looked like music on a sheet..And that goes by letters doesn't it.Just a thought. I see it as a code...Just a though.You know they have found weird writings of the past...Use them..Someone/Someone might write back!:)
And....
We are not alone!...I was watching just the news the other night and they talked about UFOs...That one man was trying to say those who have sightings are nuts...
I say when Army Personel of high ranks say they are here and they have proof... But of course where told to not talk.... then they arn't giving us a line of bull.
I don't give a care about what the Debunkies say..UFOs are around and our world, in some parts of the world is not excepting the truth.I believe time will tell the truth and those who don't believe will have to except it..like it or not.I just know that we have visitors.I think of it this way...We have people going up in space now and from the past..So what say's they don't?... and being much more advanced if not from the future then they have flying vehicles and can do what we can't even begin to imagine.If they did find a ship in Rowell or Aztec Mexico area then they found some of the visitors kind of knowledge and we know they did... Period!

Space contains dust . Dust scatters light and makes it dim--Radio waves at the lyman hydrogen absorbsion line or Pi times this frequency would be and are good choices. Why we are not beaming a message into space that identifies us as intelligent is beyond me.

---

RE: UFO's and conspiracy theories involving "Government Flying Saucer and Alien Snatching Coverups! [tm]"

Of course UFO's exist. An Object that is Unidentified and Flying in the sky is a UFO by definition. But, these UFO's are as likely being flown by Big Foot as they are by Little Green (or Grey) Men. More likely, they are just natural phenomena and deliberate hoaxes.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.", Carl Sagan.

Where is the "extraordinary evidence" for alien visitors?

As for the elaborate conspiracy theories involving government coverups, the problem I have with them is the government part. The government has enough difficulty delivering the mail and issuing out passports (look at that mess right now), let alone pulling off these elaborate coverup conspiracies. Plus, these conspiracy theories would require world governments to be involved. (The Soviets likely would've gotten wind of it.) As everyone knows, the only way you can keep a conspiracy between just three people is to shoot two of them.

RE: "Army personnel of high ranks". What exactly constitutes a "high rank"? There are many retired Colonels out there that are, excuse the term, outright kooks. Colonel Prouty comes to mind. I respect his service as I was in military (Army and Air Force), but the guy is a kook. Being retired-anything doesn't mean that they don't have to provide extraordinary evidence to substantiate their extraordinary claims. As a wise, little, old lady used to say back in the 80's, "Where is the beef?". Real science requires beef.

I'm not a paid Government Disinformation Agent, I'm just trying to introduce a little bit of critical thinking...

[Edit: Col. Prouty wasn't the guy I was thinking of. Prouty is the guy that made all sorts of claims regarding the JFK assassination. The guy I was thinking of, can't remember his name, but makes all sorts of racket about the government harboring and even making "technology for body snatching" deals with ET. He used to be on the Art Bell show often, go figure. He claims to be a recently retired Colonel from the AF, but I question that by the use of his language. Like most kooks, he uses phrases and acronyms that haven't been used in the military since the 1960's.]

I think they need to put some mustard seeds on the arecibo antenna... just kidding -- in response to Nakun's 1st post "So, what do you think?" about the link to an Art Bell interview.