Poor Trend
We’re importing Latin America’s poor.

Forget the long-running bipartisan concern about creating an educated, highly skilled workforce. What the U.S. economy desperately needs is more high-school dropouts — so desperately that we should import them hand over fist.

Such is the logic of the contention by advocates of lax immigration that the flow of illegal labor from south of the border is a boon to our economy. But it doesn't make intuitive sense that importing the poor of Latin America would benefit us. If low-skill workers were key to economic growth, Mexico would be an economic powerhouse, and impoverished Americans would be slipping south over the Rio Grande.

The National Research Council reports that an immigrant to the U.S. without a high-school diploma — whether legal or illegal — consumes $89,000 more in governmental services than he pays in taxes during his lifetime. An immigrant with only a high-school diploma is a net cost of $31,000. Forty percent of illegal immigrants have no more than a high-school degree, and 60 percent have less than a high-school degree.

Steve Camarota of the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Immigration Studies estimates that illegal immigrants cost the federal government $10 billion a year. State and local governments lose even more. Illegals pay some taxes, but not enough to cover governmental expenses like Medicaid and treatment for the uninsured.

According to Camarota, if illegal immigrants were legalized, their net annual cost to the federal government would only increase, tripling to $30 billion a year. Immigrant workers don't earn enough to pay much in taxes, while they qualify for all sorts of governmental assistance. As they become legal, they will get even more assistance — the benefits that they get from the Earned Income Tax Credit, for instance, would increase by a factor of 10.

Whatever benefit illegals provide to the economy in general must be minuscule. All workers without a high-school education — illegal and otherwise — account for only 3 percent of economic output. Even if illegal immigrants were dominant in low-skill industries, their broader impact would be small. But they aren't dominant, and that includes job categories associated with immigrants. Nearly 60 percent of cabdrivers are native-born. In only four of 473 job classifications are immigrants a majority of the workers.

The U.S. has an ample supply of native-born workers with a high-school education or less, but Camarota suggests they are being pushed out of the labor force by the influx of illegals. From 2000 to 2005, the percentage of high-school dropouts holding a job dropped from 53% to 48%, and this trend was particularly pronounced in states with the highest levels of immigration. Illegals compete with the very workers least equipped to thrive in our economy.

Pro-immigration conservatives sometimes argue that, through immigration, we are importing social renewal. But the illegitimacy rate among Hispanic immigrants in the U.S. is 40 percent. They aren't coming from countries that are paradisiacal models of social conservatism. The illegitimacy rate in Mexico is roughly one third, and in El Salvador it is 73 percent.

With the U.S. population aging, don't we need highly fertile immigrants to replenish our working-age population? Actually, there aren't enough immigrants to change our age structure significantly. According to Camarota, 66.2 percent of the U.S. population was of working age in 2000. If all post-1980s immigrants and their U.S.-born children are excluded, the number falls to only 65.9 percent. With immigrants, the U.S. fertility rate is 2.1; without them, it would be 2.0.

Immigration from Latin America, in short, does not chiefly benefit our economy, government or society, but rather the immigrants themselves. Their motives, if not their means, are admirable — they want to improve their lives. Advocates of a lax immigration policy should admit that their policy has a humanitarian, not an economic, rationale, and its beneficiaries aren't Americans but mainly people from rural Mexico.

If we really need more poorly educated workers here, we can always rely, unfortunately, on the public schools to produce them indigenously.

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To immigrate TO Mexico...

We are not talking about Mexico, so the Mexican 'way of life' is irrelevant...

Am I missing something??

Yes... Is our economy booming or is it falling apart?

Or does that just depend on the topic at hand? ;)


(It sounds to me like you have a problem with cooperate america, not the immigrants they are exploiting.)

I'll go on record that I don't like the ease of acquiring H-1B Visas for "guest workers" coming from IT outsourcing firms in India who, while they are nice people (really nice, actually), and are supposed to supplement the workforce, they end up being a factor in putting Natural Born Citizens out of work.

Coast To Coast trucking.

I have a CDL and wanted to do that... Until I started reading the job ads:

"For every 6 days out, you will earn 1 day off."


Geez... How much more arrogant can these companies get... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Europe has an average of 30 days vacation. America has 13 days. why is the dollar going down? F'king war

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And the are calling them "undocumented AMERICANS " now. It's so hard to be politically correct now. You guys better try a lot HARDER !.......

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The U.S. and U.K. military "immigration" of Iraq was hardly legal.

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Oh, and I forgot to add, that when California was taken by the US from Mexico, the treaty provided that Spanish would be the "Nationally" recognized language in all of the lands taken at that time. That includes today's Texas, New Mexico, Nevada, parts of Utah, California and Colorado. So at least out here in the western US, the only officially recognized language is Spanish.
Como te gusta esto?

No, the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848) made no mention of the Spanish language. Where did you hear that it did?


Text of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo

Please point out the relevant clause.

To immigrate illegally is, by definition, to break the law.

Breaking the law is, by definition, wrong.

This means that illegal immigration is wrong.

End of lesson.

LOL!
Ha ha ha!
Man, this is hilarious.
"Breaking the law is, by definition, wrong"?!?
Holy CRAAAAP!!!
BillyHyland, you are HIGH-LARRY-OUS!
If breaking the law was wrong, no laws would ever change, get repealed, no new laws would be added and there'd be no lessons in the "sacred" books about balancing living under G/god(s) laws and humanity's laws.
LOL.
Man, you are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo funny.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

End of lesson.

Being a God fearing man such as yourself, I would have thought that you might have wanted to help them rather than kick them to the curb...

I feel sorry for any stray animals or homeless persons that may illegally and unknowingly wander onto your property in search of a little compassion...


Thanks for the 'legal' lesson, but I prefer the 'moral' lessons... ;)

He shoots the stray illegal kitty cats.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

the language of this country is English??

It is? The America I used to know welcomed diversity...

As of late, I'm quite ashamed to be called an American... And the worst part is, most Americans don't even see how ugly they've become... ;)

Jeffrey...
I am PROUD to be an American. And I don't mind diversity. Or immigration. My granparent were all immigrants. But they did it legally.
The root question/problem is about all the ILLEGAL immigrants in this country right now, what they are sucking out of the social services of this country, and what we should do with the whole lot of them.

I am Hispanic and have followed this issue closely. My family settled in California before it was part of the US. I am a seventh generation California. Let me first say that I agree that something must be done to stop or at the very least control illegal immigration.

However, I detest the use of mis-information in support of immigration reform. Msattler, I am not blaming you for your post or the statement about abuse of social services. The mis-information seems to come from the press and other "reputable" sources. It is often claimed that illegal immigrants get free medical services, free education, free, etc all at our expense. That is not true.

The truth is that illegal immigrants are paying much more than they receive. How is this possible? The vast majority, nearly 100%, of employers require a social security number before they hire someone. Some illegal aliens have valid social security numbers, very few, others have fake ones. Employers withhold taxes from the paychecks of all employees, legal or not. The withholding are reported and paid to the appropriate agency by employers. You and I file our tax returns and get our refund. The vast majority of illegal aliens, especially the ones with fake social security numbers, do not. The IRS reports that they receive billions of dollars annually from people with fake social security numbers. The Social Security administration stashes the money received from fake number in an “earnings suspense file”. This earning suspense file is growing on average by more than $50 billion a year. The non-partisan National Research Council found that on average over their lifetime, an illegal immigrant will contribute $80,000 more in taxes than they consume in services.
There are a number of reasons for cracking down of illegal immigration, but free social services is not one of them. Please don't spread the myth.

Your figures are way off and it's not just illegals that pay into the ESF.

What happens to the money assigned to people using false identities, or names matched with the wrong Social Security Number (SSN), or newlyweds who forgot to register their name changes with the Social Security administration?

The answer lies in a little-known aspect of the Social Security behemoth known as the Earnings Suspense File (ESF).

The ESF has become a hotbed for debate over everything from immigration rights to identity theft, as it continues to accrue money at roughly $6 billion a year, with the total as of 2005 sitting at $519 billion.

I'd say that's quite a bit shy of $50 billion.

I'd say to most normal human beings, even with the 44 billion dollar difference, since most us cannot conceive of dealing with either 6 billion or 50 billion dollars at once, it starts to seem pretty close together. Another number close to those two is forty-two gajazillion.

---

Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

the language of this country is English??

It is? The America I used to know welcomed diversity...

As of late, I'm quite ashamed to be called an American... And the worst part is, most Americans don't even see how ugly they've become... ;)

Jeffrey...
I am PROUD to be an American. And I don't mind diversity. Or immigration. My granparent were all immigrants. But they did it legally.
The root question/problem is about all the ILLEGAL immigrants in this country right now, what they are sucking out of the social services of this country, and what we should do with the whole lot of them.

I am Hispanic and have followed this issue closely. My family settled in California before it was part of the US. I am a seventh generation California. Let me first say that I agree that something must be done to stop or at the very least control illegal immigration.

However, I detest the use of mis-information in support of immigration reform. Msattler, I am not blaming you for your post or the statement about abuse of social services. The mis-information seems to come from the press and other "reputable" sources. It is often claimed that illegal immigrants get free medical services, free education, free, etc all at our expense. That is not true.

The truth is that illegal immigrants are paying much more than they receive. How is this possible? The vast majority, nearly 100%, of employers require a social security number before they hire someone. Some illegal aliens have valid social security numbers, very few, others have fake ones. Employers withhold taxes from the paychecks of all employees, legal or not. The withholding are reported and paid to the appropriate agency by employers. You and I file our tax returns and get our refund. The vast majority of illegal aliens, especially the ones with fake social security numbers, do not. The IRS reports that they receive billions of dollars annually from people with fake social security numbers. The Social Security administration stashes the money received from fake number in an “earnings suspense file”. This earning suspense file is growing on average by more than $50 billion a year. The non-partisan National Research Council found that on average over their lifetime, an illegal immigrant will contribute $80,000 more in taxes than they consume in services.
There are a number of reasons for cracking down of illegal immigration, but free social services is not one of them. Please don't spread the myth.

Your figures are way off and it's not just illegals that pay into the ESF.

What happens to the money assigned to people using false identities, or names matched with the wrong Social Security Number (SSN), or newlyweds who forgot to register their name changes with the Social Security administration?

The answer lies in a little-known aspect of the Social Security behemoth known as the Earnings Suspense File (ESF).

The ESF has become a hotbed for debate over everything from immigration rights to identity theft, as it continues to accrue money at roughly $6 billion a year, with the total as of 2005 sitting at $519 billion.

I'd say that's quite a bit shy of $50 billion.

I'd say to most normal human beings, even with the 44 billion dollar difference, since most us cannot conceive of dealing with either 6 billion or 50 billion dollars at once, it starts to seem pretty close together. Another number close to those two is forty-two gajazillion.

I guess you're right. 6 bucks is about equal to 50 bucks.

---

the language of this country is English??

It is? The America I used to know welcomed diversity...

As of late, I'm quite ashamed to be called an American... And the worst part is, most Americans don't even see how ugly they've become... ;)

Jeffrey...
I am PROUD to be an American. And I don't mind diversity. Or immigration. My granparent were all immigrants. But they did it legally.
The root question/problem is about all the ILLEGAL immigrants in this country right now, what they are sucking out of the social services of this country, and what we should do with the whole lot of them.

I am Hispanic and have followed this issue closely. My family settled in California before it was part of the US. I am a seventh generation California. Let me first say that I agree that something must be done to stop or at the very least control illegal immigration.

However, I detest the use of mis-information in support of immigration reform. Msattler, I am not blaming you for your post or the statement about abuse of social services. The mis-information seems to come from the press and other "reputable" sources. It is often claimed that illegal immigrants get free medical services, free education, free, etc all at our expense. That is not true.

The truth is that illegal immigrants are paying much more than they receive. How is this possible? The vast majority, nearly 100%, of employers require a social security number before they hire someone. Some illegal aliens have valid social security numbers, very few, others have fake ones. Employers withhold taxes from the paychecks of all employees, legal or not. The withholding are reported and paid to the appropriate agency by employers. You and I file our tax returns and get our refund. The vast majority of illegal aliens, especially the ones with fake social security numbers, do not. The IRS reports that they receive billions of dollars annually from people with fake social security numbers. The Social Security administration stashes the money received from fake number in an “earnings suspense file”. This earning suspense file is growing on average by more than $50 billion a year. The non-partisan National Research Council found that on average over their lifetime, an illegal immigrant will contribute $80,000 more in taxes than they consume in services.
There are a number of reasons for cracking down of illegal immigration, but free social services is not one of them. Please don't spread the myth.

Your figures are way off and it's not just illegals that pay into the ESF.

What happens to the money assigned to people using false identities, or names matched with the wrong Social Security Number (SSN), or newlyweds who forgot to register their name changes with the Social Security administration?

The answer lies in a little-known aspect of the Social Security behemoth known as the Earnings Suspense File (ESF).

The ESF has become a hotbed for debate over everything from immigration rights to identity theft, as it continues to accrue money at roughly $6 billion a year, with the total as of 2005 sitting at $519 billion.

I'd say that's quite a bit shy of $50 billion.

I'd say to most normal human beings, even with the 44 billion dollar difference, since most us cannot conceive of dealing with either 6 billion or 50 billion dollars at once, it starts to seem pretty close together. Another number close to those two is forty-two gajazillion.

I guess you're right. 6 bucks is about equal to 50 bucks.

No, most people can tell the difference between those two. Except for young children, people can appreciate having either $6 or $50 and can tell the difference between what they can get with each amount.

The differences probably blur in the other case, because each is so incomprehensibly huge to most people.

The non-partisan National Research Council found that on average over their lifetime, an illegal immigrant will contribute $80,000 more in taxes than they consume in services.

Let's take the ratio of $6 billion/$50 billion. Knock off the billions, as you did. 6/50 = 12/100 or 12%. What's 12% of $80,000? It's $9,600. If it is roughly appropriate to apply that ratio, then that still means an illegal immigrant contributes $9,600 more in taxes than they consume in services. Either way, $9,600 or $80,000 doesn't sound too good to me.

---

Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

To immigrate illegally is, by definition, to break the law.

Breaking the law is, by definition, wrong.

This means that illegal immigration is wrong.

End of lesson.

What is a good or a bad idea?
What is legal or illegal?
What is right or wrong?
What is good and what is a sin?

Illegal = wrong? Sorry, I do not think so.

Many examples could be discussed. The legal drinking age in the USA was 18. Now it's 21. So, was it wrong for all those 18-20 year olds to be drinking before the age was raised? It sounds to me it was more about legislating over good and bad ideas, not what's right and wrong. There are people who are 21, 30, 50 and so on who still cannot handle alcohol well. Are there people who handle it well? Could any of those people be 18? Even 16? Not that I'd want to find out. I've seen enough people who cannot handle it that it seems like a bad idea to let someone 16 or 18 drink alcohol. So, now it's a law: no alcohol for people in the USA before 21. But does it make it wrong if someone drinks it before 21? Nope. It's illegal and worse it could be a very bad idea for that person.

---

Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

To immigrate illegally is, by definition, to break the law.

Breaking the law is, by definition, wrong.

This means that illegal immigration is wrong.

End of lesson.

What is a good or a bad idea?
What is legal or illegal?
What is right or wrong?
What is good and what is a sin?

Illegal = wrong? Sorry, I do not think so.

Many examples could be discussed. The legal drinking age in the USA was 18. Now it's 21. So, was it wrong for all those 18-20 year olds to be drinking before the age was raised? It sounds to me it was more about legislating over good and bad ideas, not what's right and wrong. There are people who are 21, 30, 50 and so on who still cannot handle alcohol well. Are there people who handle it well? Could any of those people be 18? Even 16? Not that I'd want to find out. I've seen enough people who cannot handle it that it seems like a bad idea to let someone 16 or 18 drink alcohol. So, now it's a law: no alcohol for people in the USA before 21. But does it make it wrong if someone drinks it before 21? Nope. It's illegal and worse it could be a very bad idea for that person.

Using your comparative logic as previously illustrated.

Why even worry about it.

Like 5yr. olds are almost like 21yr. olds anyway?

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You apparently missed the point.
How about this hot-button issue?
Abortion was illegal. Now, in most cases, it is not. So, does that make it "right"?

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

The Empire would place mines from the Pacific Ocean to the Gulf of Mexico.

---

Account frozen...

the language of this country is English??

It is? The America I used to know welcomed diversity...

As of late, I'm quite ashamed to be called an American... And the worst part is, most Americans don't even see how ugly they've become... ;)

Jeffrey...
I am PROUD to be an American. And I don't mind diversity. Or immigration. My granparent were all immigrants. But they did it legally.
The root question/problem is about all the ILLEGAL immigrants in this country right now, what they are sucking out of the social services of this country, and what we should do with the whole lot of them.

I am Hispanic and have followed this issue closely. My family settled in California before it was part of the US. I am a seventh generation California. Let me first say that I agree that something must be done to stop or at the very least control illegal immigration.

However, I detest the use of mis-information in support of immigration reform. Msattler, I am not blaming you for your post or the statement about abuse of social services. The mis-information seems to come from the press and other "reputable" sources. It is often claimed that illegal immigrants get free medical services, free education, free, etc all at our expense. That is not true.

The truth is that illegal immigrants are paying much more than they receive. How is this possible? The vast majority, nearly 100%, of employers require a social security number before they hire someone. Some illegal aliens have valid social security numbers, very few, others have fake ones. Employers withhold taxes from the paychecks of all employees, legal or not. The withholding are reported and paid to the appropriate agency by employers. You and I file our tax returns and get our refund. The vast majority of illegal aliens, especially the ones with fake social security numbers, do not. The IRS reports that they receive billions of dollars annually from people with fake social security numbers. The Social Security administration stashes the money received from fake number in an “earnings suspense file”. This earning suspense file is growing on average by more than $50 billion a year. The non-partisan National Research Council found that on average over their lifetime, an illegal immigrant will contribute $80,000 more in taxes than they consume in services.
There are a number of reasons for cracking down of illegal immigration, but free social services is not one of them. Please don't spread the myth.

Your figures are way off and it's not just illegals that pay into the ESF.

What happens to the money assigned to people using false identities, or names matched with the wrong Social Security Number (SSN), or newlyweds who forgot to register their name changes with the Social Security administration?

The answer lies in a little-known aspect of the Social Security behemoth known as the Earnings Suspense File (ESF).

The ESF has become a hotbed for debate over everything from immigration rights to identity theft, as it continues to accrue money at roughly $6 billion a year, with the total as of 2005 sitting at $519 billion.

I'd say that's quite a bit shy of $50 billion.

I'd say to most normal human beings, even with the 44 billion dollar difference, since most us cannot conceive of dealing with either 6 billion or 50 billion dollars at once, it starts to seem pretty close together. Another number close to those two is forty-two gajazillion.

I guess you're right. 6 bucks is about equal to 50 bucks.

No, most people can tell the difference between those two. Except for young children, people can appreciate having either $6 or $50 and can tell the difference between what they can get with each amount.

The differences probably blur in the other case, because each is so incomprehensibly huge to most people.

The non-partisan National Research Council found that on average over their lifetime, an illegal immigrant will contribute $80,000 more in taxes than they consume in services.

Let's take the ratio of $6 billion/$50 billion. Knock off the billions, as you did. 6/50 = 12/100 or 12%. What's 12% of $80,000? It's $9,600. If it is roughly appropriate to apply that ratio, then that still means an illegal immigrant contributes $9,600 more in taxes than they consume in services. Either way, $9,600 or $80,000 doesn't sound too good to me.

Didn't read the other post either, did you?

Message 587159:
The National Research Council reports that an immigrant to the U.S. without a high-school diploma — whether legal or illegal — consumes $89,000 more in governmental services than he pays in taxes during his lifetime. An immigrant with only a high-school diploma is a net cost of $31,000. Forty percent of illegal immigrants have no more than a high-school degree, and 60 percent have less than a high-school degree.

Refutes what Carlos stated that he said that the NRC said.

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I'll re-read it later.
I think the larger issue is not what you and Carlos have posted. The larger issue is what we label as right and wrong, etc. ... . As I said, what's legal or illegal is not the same as what's right and wrong.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

I'll re-read it later.
I think the larger issue is not what you and Carlos have posted. The larger issue is what we label as right and wrong, etc. ... . As I said, what's legal or illegal is not the same as what's right and wrong.

Sure. Why not? Total Anarchy rules! Because of the way you've put it, who needs laws anyway?

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I'll re-read it later.
I think the larger issue is not what you and Carlos have posted. The larger issue is what we label as right and wrong, etc. ... . As I said, what's legal or illegal is not the same as what's right and wrong.

Sure. Why not? Total Anarchy rules! Because of the way you've put it, who needs laws anyway?

That's a huge extrapolation. It's Rush, and maybe R/B, that are the libertarians, remember?

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.