Which Way To America
by Living Colour
album: Vivid (1988)

I look at the T.V.
Your America's doing well
I look out the window
My America's catching hell

I just want to know which way do I go to get to your America?
I just want to know which way do I go to get to your America?

I change the channel
Your America's doing fine
I read the headlines
My America's doing time

I just want to know which way do I go to get to your America?
I just want to know which way do I go to get to your America?

Go west young, go west young man

Don't want to crossover
But how do I keep from going under?

Where is my picket fence?
My long, tall glass of lemonade?
Where is my VCR, my stereo, my T.V. show?

I look at the T.V.
I don't see your America
I look out the window
I don't see your America

I want to know how to get to your America
I want to know how to get to your America
America

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Is it ok if i visit?

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Scorpions - Wind Of Change

Language, language. Thats not the problem.

The main problem is at the other side. These countries, where they come from, we must give assist. If there is no need to get out of there, the problem is solved.

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Is it ok if i visit?

Visiting is fine. The problems people have is when the "visit" becomes permanent. Serbia is not involved in the Visa Waiver Program, but I don't know how difficult is is for that area of Eastern Europe to obtain a visa. I know that for my friend in Latvia, it is very difficult for her to get a visa, but the odds are weighted against her because of her gender. Latvia is applying for the VWP (Visa Waiver Program), but even still the VWP website mentions that not all people of qualifying countries will be allowed entry without a visa...

Visa Waiver Program information from the US State Department

Am I the only one who gets a little PO'ed when I need to "Press 1 for English"?

Would you rather have them present the question in Spanish?

Why should they present the question in bloody Spanish when the language of this country is English??

Hmm... When I've been to New York City, the language seemed to be: Polish, Chinese, English, Spanish, French and even German and Russian - in this order.
In Pennsylvania it's Amish Dutch and English - in this order. In other areas it's the language of the certain American Indians which is the main language - even French ...
I have been in only a few towns where only one language was spoken, in only a few areas which had not been immigration areas for at least one century...
AFAIK, English is just the official language of the USA, the language everybody has to at least understand. But since the USA has been an immigration country since before it's foundation, why should they not ask you to "press 1 for English" when they know that there is at least a minority in your county who speaks another language as first language? Such things are only for the comfort of all their customers. If you traveled to Germany you would be glad to have such service.

Actually; if I traveled to Germany, I would expect to have to speak, (or struggle to speak), German - no matter how badly/poorly my German came out - I should at least make the attempt. Same for any other country I would contemplate traveling into. Thus; if I were to travel to Mexico, I would pick up an English to Spanish Dictionary, and buy a Software Program to instruct me in conversational Spanish. I would then study the language far prior to my scheduled trip. Why shouldn't the reverse hold true; especially when they want to immigrate here???!!!??? English is our official language, learn it, deal with it, even if it is just struggling with it, show the respect that is due!


Sincerely,

I must agree to champ: language alone is not the problem. When I traveled to other countries, I also tried to learn some phrases in their language even though I knew that they probably would offer service in German, just to become more independent.

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Account frozen...

Am I the only one who gets a little PO'ed when I need to "Press 1 for English"?

Would you rather have them present the question in Spanish?

Why should they present the question in bloody Spanish when the language of this country is English??

Hmm... When I've been to New York City, the language seemed to be: Polish, Chinese, English, Spanish, French and even German and Russian - in this order.
In Pennsylvania it's Amish Dutch and English - in this order. In other areas it's the language of the certain American Indians which is the main language - even French ...
I have been in only a few towns where only one language was spoken, in only a few areas which had not been immigration areas for at least one century...
AFAIK, English is just the official language of the USA, the language everybody has to at least understand. But since the USA has been an immigration country since before it's foundation, why should they not ask you to "press 1 for English" when they know that there is at least a minority in your county who speaks another language as first language? Such things are only for the comfort of all their customers. If you traveled to Germany you would be glad to have such service.

Actually; if I traveled to Germany, I would expect to have to speak, (or struggle to speak), German - no matter how badly/poorly my German came out - I should at least make the attempt. Same for any other country I would contemplate traveling into. Thus; if I were to travel to Mexico, I would pick up an English to Spanish Dictionary, and buy a Software Program to instruct me in conversational Spanish. I would then study the language far prior to my scheduled trip. Why shouldn't the reverse hold true; especially when they want to immigrate here???!!!??? English is our official language, learn it, deal with it, even if it is just struggling with it, show the respect that is due!


Sincerely,

I must agree to champ: language alone is not the problem. When I traveled to other countries, I also tried to learn some phrases in their language even though I knew that they probably would offer service in German, just to become more independent.

I spent a lot of holidays in DK. But i cant speak any word Danish. Shame on me. LOL But English helps a lot.

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Is it ok if i visit?

Visiting is fine. The problems people have is when the "visit" becomes permanent. Serbia is not involved in the Visa Waiver Program, but I don't know how difficult is is for that area of Eastern Europe to obtain a visa. I know that for my friend in Latvia, it is very difficult for her to get a visa, but the odds are weighted against her because of her gender. Latvia is applying for the VWP (Visa Waiver Program), but even still the VWP website mentions that not all people of qualifying countries will be allowed entry without a visa...

Visa Waiver Program information from the US State Department

Yep a visit maybe in the far future,hard to get a visa...oh well...

BTW whats the matter with whats your gender in getting a visa???

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Scorpions - Wind Of Change

I must agree to champ: language alone is not the problem. When I traveled to other countries, I also tried to learn some phrases in their language even though I knew that they probably would offer service in German, just to become more independent.

Multi-lingualism is more prevalent in Europe due to close proximity of such a wide range of languages. Here in the United States, not counting immigrants, there are only two major languages besides English to deal with - French and Spanish. Everything directly South of us is one variant or another of Spanish, with Portugese coming into play only once you get to South America. To the North (Canada), French. You could stretch it to include Greenland, but I don't remember the last time I was approached by any Greenlandic or Danish-speaking person...

BTW whats the matter with whats your gender in getting a visa???

Russian and Former Soviet Union (FSU) women are more restricted because of a combination of overstays and because of various scam schemes. Part of the B2 (visitor) visa process is that you have to prove that you have some sort of obligation to return to your country when the 90 days are up. The women are speculated to be having the intention of getting married and staying without going through the official process (K1 visa). The K1 requires the US Citizen to have physically met the person applying for the K1 at least once in the two years prior to the application, among other things. The B2 is also cheaper than the K1...and the government wants their money if the true purpose was to get married...

BTW whats the matter with whats your gender in getting a visa???

Russian and Former Soviet Union (FSU) women are more restricted because of a combination of overstays and because of various scam schemes. Part of the B2 (visitor) visa process is that you have to prove that you have some sort of obligation to return to your country when the 90 days are up. The women are speculated to be having the intention of getting married and staying without going through the official process (K1 visa). The K1 requires the US Citizen to have physically met the person applying for the K1 at least once in the two years prior to the application, among other things. The B2 is also cheaper than the K1...and the government wants their money if the true purpose was to get married...

Ah i see.

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Scorpions - Wind Of Change

Hmm... When I've been to New York City, the language seemed to be: Polish, Chinese, English, Spanish, French and even German and Russian - in this order.
In Pennsylvania it's Amish Dutch and English - in this order. In other areas it's the language of the certain American Indians which is the main language - even French ...
I have been in only a few towns where only one language was spoken, in only a few areas which had not been immigration areas for at least one century...
AFAIK, English is just the official language of the USA, the language everybody has to at least understand. But since the USA has been an immigration country since before it's foundation, why should they not ask you to "press 1 for English" when they know that there is at least a minority in your county who speaks another language as first language? Such things are only for the comfort of all their customers. If you traveled to Germany you would be glad to have such service.

But to get back to topic: I think that illegal immigration is wrong. I would accept persons who seek asylum, war-refugees, and some other exceptions - but these had to go thru the normal immigration procedure asap...
But I do think that to prevent illegal immigration from Mexico, it's not enough to reinforce the border, but to improve the living situations of your direct neighbors could be a better alternative for your gov't - since they already have some decades' of experience in setting up and removing foreign governments anyway.

I once (in 1991) met a US citizen who told me that he earned a fortune smuggling GDR citizens to West Germany. When I asked him if he would give Mexicans the same kind of help to get to USA, since also this means bringing people from a poorer country into a richer country, he became provoking - he thought smuggling humans were different depending on the "where from" and "where to". But I do know that many people actually do smuggle people from Mexico to USA - and back, just to supply farmers and other entrepreneurs with cheap workers.

First of all, English is not the 'official language' of the USA. The USA does not have an official language. English is merely the most common language spoken among long-time citizens, and it is traditionally the language of government over here. Back in the late 1700s, right after this country won it's independence from Britain, there was a brief consideration of naming an official language, but the Founding Fathers decided against it. At that time, English did not have a clear majority. There were about as many German speakers in the newly independent colonies as there were English speakers. If the Founding Fathers had decided to name an official language, odds are it would have been German.

As to this thread's topic, 'Illegal immigration... right or wrong??', thats a no-brainer. It is illegal under the laws of this nation, therefore it is wrong.

Confining the discussion to the group of illegal aliens mentioned by the OP, namely the Mexicans, just why do they bypass our immigration laws and sneak up into this country? I am sure that a part of them wish to remain in this country and have a better life. However, the majority of them, in my experience, just want to come up here and work, sending money back to their families for a while before returning to Mexico. The reasons are not politically motivated, but economically motivated. In other words, the economy of Mexico sux0rz.

Why does the economy of Mexico suck? Well, its not because the Mexican workers are lazy. Mexicans are about the hardest working ethnic group I know. Their proportion of lazy bums is very low indeed. It is not because Mexico lacks natural resources. Mexico has a LOT of oil, as well as metal ore (especially silver ore), and many minerals as well. It is not because Mexico can not grow enough food. While much of northern Mexico is desert, they still have enough viable farm land to feed themselves several times over. Is it because they lack educational opportunities? No, Mexico has several famous universities.

No, the Mexican people are held back by their government. While in name, their government is about as democratic as anyone else's on the planet, in practice they give Nigeria a run for its money when it comes to corruption. Since the Mexican Revolution in the early 1900s, up until very recently, Mexico was a single party nation. The PRI (or its immediate ancestors), that is the Institutional Revolutionary Party, totally controlled the Mexican government. And even though today, the PAN (Fox's party) has the presidency (which they won in 2000), the PRI still controls much of the lower levels of government. The PRI set up the Mexican Government along somewhat feudalistic lines. Regions were administered by their 'elected' officials as fiefdoms who did nothing but line their own pockets with bribery and kickbacks. And the president had his fingers in almost everything that went on. It was seen as a perk of office.

Additionally, foreign investment was somewhat discouraged. If, in fact, a foreign business concern did manage to take off in Mexico, it was almost invariably nationalized. Furthermore, even native Mexican businesses were usually burdened with regulation to the point that they were barely profitable, let alone profitable enough to expand.

Is Mexico without hope? Of course not! They are making some progress, witness the PAN (Party of National Action) and its gaining of the presidency in 2000. The PAN is decidedly more business-friendly than the PRI. However change is slow to come, and must overcome decades if not centuries of tradition. Plus, there is the danger that all of the reforms might be wiped out at the ballot box if the PRI manages to regain its total choke-hold on the Mexican government.

What can the USA do to help? Not bloody much. The Mexican people have reason to mistrust the USA. We have, after all, invaded them several times over the last 200 or so years. If we try to force help on them, the effort will likely backfire. US Business interests did help touch off the Mexican Revolution of the early 1900s, and have provided a series of crises since then (as well as before). What can we do to help Mexico grow its economy? Nothing, except sit back, watch, and wait for them to ask us for help. But, until the Mexican economy does improve to the point that the Mexican citizens no longer have to sneak over our border to make a decent living, our choices are limited as to what we can do to solve the problem of all the 'illegal alien' Mexicans up here.

Either we can just roll over and accept it (as the possibly-dead immigration reform bill was to do), or we can militarize our borders to close them. Obviously, I would prefer the second choice over the first one. But I can see how that might further destabilize the situation down in Mexico, being seen as a possible prelude to yet-another-gringo-invasion. If only we could get a little cooperation from the Mexican government, we could solve the problem by instituting a guest worker program, and legalize the flood of Mexicans crossing the border to find work. That would likely solve the issue. But, in light of the past relationship between Washington DC and Mexico City DF, I am not gonna hold my breath.

the language of this country is English??

It is? The America I used to know welcomed diversity...

As of late, I'm quite ashamed to be called an American... And the worst part is, most Americans don't even see how ugly they've become... ;)

Jeffrey...
I am PROUD to be an American. And I don't mind diversity. Or immigration. My granparent were all immigrants. But they did it legally.
The root question/problem is about all the ILLEGAL immigrants in this country right now, what they are sucking out of the social services of this country, and what we should do with the whole lot of them.

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"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

the language of this country is English??

It is? The America I used to know welcomed diversity...

As of late, I'm quite ashamed to be called an American... And the worst part is, most Americans don't even see how ugly they've become... ;)

Jeffrey...
I am PROUD to be an American. And I don't mind diversity. Or immigration. My granparent were all immigrants. But they did it legally.
The root question/problem is about all the ILLEGAL immigrants in this country right now, what they are sucking out of the social services of this country, and what we should do with the whole lot of them.

I am Hispanic and have followed this issue closely. My family settled in California before it was part of the US. I am a seventh generation California. Let me first say that I agree that something must be done to stop or at the very least control illegal immigration.

However, I detest the use of mis-information in support of immigration reform. Msattler, I am not blaming you for your post or the statement about abuse of social services. The mis-information seems to come from the press and other "reputable" sources. It is often claimed that illegal immigrants get free medical services, free education, free, etc all at our expense. That is not true.

The truth is that illegal immigrants are paying much more than they receive. How is this possible? The vast majority, nearly 100%, of employers require a social security number before they hire someone. Some illegal aliens have valid social security numbers, very few, others have fake ones. Employers withhold taxes from the paychecks of all employees, legal or not. The withholding are reported and paid to the appropriate agency by employers. You and I file our tax returns and get our refund. The vast majority of illegal aliens, especially the ones with fake social security numbers, do not. The IRS reports that they receive billions of dollars annually from people with fake social security numbers. The Social Security administration stashes the money received from fake number in an “earnings suspense file”. This earning suspense file is growing on average by more than $50 billion a year. The non-partisan National Research Council found that on average over their lifetime, an illegal immigrant will contribute $80,000 more in taxes than they consume in services.
There are a number of reasons for cracking down of illegal immigration, but free social services is not one of them. Please don't spread the myth.

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Oh, and I forgot to add, that when California was taken by the US from Mexico, the treaty provided that Spanish would be the "Nationally" recognized language in all of the lands taken at that time. That includes today's Texas, New Mexico, Nevada, parts of Utah, California and Colorado. So at least out here in the western US, the only officially recognized language is Spanish.
Como te gusta esto?

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To immigrate illegally is, by definition, to break the law.

Breaking the law is, by definition, wrong.

This means that illegal immigration is wrong.

End of lesson.

End of lesson.

Being a God fearing man such as yourself, I would have thought that you might have wanted to help them rather than kick them to the curb...

I feel sorry for any stray animals or homeless persons that may illegally and unknowingly wander onto your property in search of a little compassion...


Thanks for the 'legal' lesson, but I prefer the 'moral' lessons... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

the language of this country is English??

It is? The America I used to know welcomed diversity...

As of late, I'm quite ashamed to be called an American... And the worst part is, most Americans don't even see how ugly they've become... ;)

Jeffrey...
I am PROUD to be an American. And I don't mind diversity. Or immigration. My granparent were all immigrants. But they did it legally.
The root question/problem is about all the ILLEGAL immigrants in this country right now, what they are sucking out of the social services of this country, and what we should do with the whole lot of them.

I am Hispanic and have followed this issue closely. My family settled in California before it was part of the US. I am a seventh generation California. Let me first say that I agree that something must be done to stop or at the very least control illegal immigration.

However, I detest the use of mis-information in support of immigration reform. Msattler, I am not blaming you for your post or the statement about abuse of social services. The mis-information seems to come from the press and other "reputable" sources. It is often claimed that illegal immigrants get free medical services, free education, free, etc all at our expense. That is not true.

The truth is that illegal immigrants are paying much more than they receive. How is this possible? The vast majority, nearly 100%, of employers require a social security number before they hire someone. Some illegal aliens have valid social security numbers, very few, others have fake ones. Employers withhold taxes from the paychecks of all employees, legal or not. The withholding are reported and paid to the appropriate agency by employers. You and I file our tax returns and get our refund. The vast majority of illegal aliens, especially the ones with fake social security numbers, do not. The IRS reports that they receive billions of dollars annually from people with fake social security numbers. The Social Security administration stashes the money received from fake number in an “earnings suspense file”. This earning suspense file is growing on average by more than $50 billion a year. The non-partisan National Research Council found that on average over their lifetime, an illegal immigrant will contribute $80,000 more in taxes than they consume in services.
There are a number of reasons for cracking down of illegal immigration, but free social services is not one of them. Please don't spread the myth.

Your figures are way off and it's not just illegals that pay into the ESF.

What happens to the money assigned to people using false identities, or names matched with the wrong Social Security Number (SSN), or newlyweds who forgot to register their name changes with the Social Security administration?

The answer lies in a little-known aspect of the Social Security behemoth known as the Earnings Suspense File (ESF).

The ESF has become a hotbed for debate over everything from immigration rights to identity theft, as it continues to accrue money at roughly $6 billion a year, with the total as of 2005 sitting at $519 billion.

I'd say that's quite a bit shy of $50 billion.

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Jeffrey....sometimes the things you say simply astound me.

So let me guess...you have absolutely no problem with 12 MILLION people breaking the law by being here illegally??

If that's the case...maybe I should just tell the woman from Russia that I ahve been emailing that she should just catch a flight to Mexico and walk across the border. It would be MUCH easier than actually going through the legal channels to get here. And there is no problem at all with it, right??

Here's a thought for all of you..

To immigrate TO Mexico...an American has to prove that he can do a job that no Mexican can do. If you immigrate illegally....you are thrown into a prison.

Am I missing something??

It's ok for them to imprison anyone who comes to their country illegally...but we have no right to send them back where they came from and make them go through legal channels to enter this country??

Oh..and another thing really irritates me. The argument that " Well..the immigrants will do work that Americans won't do. " That is a load of crap. Let me explain something to all of you.

Michigan's economy is in the tank. This state is not doing well at all. The problems the auto makers have been having have had more of an impact here than in most other states.

I know quite a few people who have lost their jobs because of companies outsourcing jobs, or parts suppliers shutting down. Most of them have families, and almost every one of them are willing to take ANY kind of work to support their families. Even if it means being out in a field hoeing weeds.

Most of the Mexican " Migrant Workers " around here are legal, but recently, a large dairy operation got busted for employing illegals.

Are you seriously going to sit there and try to tell me that none of the jobless Americans would be willing to work on a dairy farm if they could make enough to help support their family??

It's more like the dairy farmer wanted to pay people next to nothing rather than have to pay something decent to a local person. But why should that dairy operation pay an American (LEGAL CITIZEN) 7 bucks an hour, when he can pay an illegal immigrant 20 bucks a day?? There is no penalty unless they actually get caught.

Personally, I hope the fines are more than he saved by not employing someone local who could have really used the job.

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

To immigrate TO Mexico...

We are not talking about Mexico, so the Mexican 'way of life' is irrelevant...

Am I missing something??

Yes... Is our economy booming or is it falling apart?

Or does that just depend on the topic at hand? ;)


(It sounds to me like you have a problem with cooperate america, not the immigrants they are exploiting.)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

(It sounds to me like you have a problem with cooperate america, not the immigrants they are exploiting.)

Nope. I have no particular problem with " corporate America ". Although...living in Michigan for 99% of my life, I probably should.

I could not care less wether or not the economy is " booming " as you put it. The fact remains that those people are here ILLEGALLY. They are breaking the law!!

What part of that escapes your intellect??

Oh...just one quick thought....

The Unemployment rate only counts those who are actually recieving unemployment benefits. It does NOT count all of those who are still jobless but have run out of benefits.

Perhaps the economy isn't quite as rosy as people would like to make out.

And what, exactly, does our economy have to do with the illegality of what the immigrants are doing??

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome