I don't get what your saying there? QMC is just anothe BOINC project what would be there that could have bent people out of shape?

you know QMC is a BOINC project. but if someone found them on google, for instance, how would that person know it is a BOINC project? BOINC is not mentioned at all-- not on the home page, not on the about page, not on the science page, not on the screensaver page.

and so it would seem logical to me that if QMC is ok (no one had a problem with it), and if GR gives greater and more conspicuous kudos to BOINC than QMC does, i should think that the approach taken at GR would be deemed similarly inoffensive.

Don't see your reasoning we all know its a BOINC project from its layout, the download page, the BOINC forums, the acknowledgements page, links to BOINC Q & A, BOINC profiles, BOINC stats pages,

People know QMC is a BOINC project and accept it, the problem GR had at the time is no one knew what it was about and thought you was making outlandish claims, which you have now cleared up in this thread

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Don't see your reasoning we all know its a BOINC project from its layout, the download page, the BOINC forums, the acknowledgements page, links to BOINC Q & A, BOINC profiles, BOINC stats pages,

People know QMC is a BOINC project and accept it, the problem GR had at the time is no one knew what it was about and thought you was making outlandish claims, which you have now cleared up in this thread

Except that the GR home page is still making outlandish claims concerning membership in their "republic". How long does it take to change that web page? 30 seconds?

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nem·e·sis (nĕm'ĭ-sĭs) pronunciation
n., pl. -ses (-sēz').

1. An opponent that cannot be beaten or overcome.

2. One that inflicts retribution or vengeance.

Except that the GR home page is still making outlandish claims concerning membership in their "republic". How long does it take to change that web page? 30 seconds?

in the morning i'll post some screenshots showing a few alternatives; i'll look forward to your feedback on these.

Except that the GR home page is still making outlandish claims concerning membership in their "republic". How long does it take to change that web page? 30 seconds?

Nearly a million “citizens”, and they haven’t even gone public yet, while BOINC overall (according to BOINCstats) has under a quarter million? It appears that, in accord with their ‘political’ theme, they’ve taken the “Big Lie” principle to heart!

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Makes you wonder who they are trying to overthrow with their 'revolution". LOL

"CitizenS! Join the revolution! We will march on the capital and overthrow the oppressors."

Banana-republic graphics and rhetoric just don't make me think of donating to scientific research.

Just me and my opinion. Whatever.

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nem·e·sis (nĕm'ĭ-sĭs) pronunciation
n., pl. -ses (-sēz').

1. An opponent that cannot be beaten or overcome.

2. One that inflicts retribution or vengeance.

Pls accept with a wink:

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Also Synopsis

apologies for the delay, had to deal with a few unexpected issues (non-GR) this morning; i'll post some screenshots in a few hours...

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so on the topic of stats and attribution etc...

let's talk first about the home page. we'll discus the stats page afterwards.

let me say also that i'll remove the word "citizens" from the various charts and use instead "users" since you are right that "citizens" much more strongly suggests association to GR, whereas "users" will take its meaning from whatever the context suggests.

so here are some alternatives for the home page:

(all numbers on these screenshots are arbitrary)

01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06.

For me, "Powered by BOINC" on (1) is fine and I would prefer this one; "In Collaboration with BOINC" on (6) is also acceptable.

Tagline "share your computer to advance science and medicine" is a good description; I don't like conotations with screensaver, which I consider misleading even it may help to associate media simplified stereotype of SETI "screensaver".

Generally, I have a problem with "Grid" because BOINC is not a grid, but distributed computing platform. Just wanted to make a point, not to change alredy chosen name of GR.

Being familiar with sociology of knowledge and sg. of science, I consider DC as a new paradigm of doing science and it can be used as an example of Scientific Revolutions in a longer term. I guess we just need to get used to this idea...

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Also so long as your amount of users is corrected at some point when you have time that will be great, I like the same choices Honza pointed out

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(all numbers on these screenshots are arbitrary)

i should be clear that i think it is important that the number of users be the (correct) number of users in all the projects we support. per my earlier post, i think one of the most significant things that prevents users from participating in volunteer distributed computing is that they consider the concept risky. the effect of this cannot be overstated. try to explain BOINC to someone in an elevator-- if they're not into computers, they'll look at you kind of sideways. they'll be intrigued but dubious.

in this connection, i think our best argument is "50,000,000 elvis fans can't be wrong".

this is why i thought, actually, 5 was a good solution. it says "these are the number of users for the projects" (not GR) and the footer makes clear that the projects are independent of us.

BOINC, in my view, has both cooperation and competition aspects.

The cooperation (and it's goals) are effectively addressed in GR tagline, so far so good.

The competition aspect is obviously visible when we go to stats, damn credit (or "work done" if you prefer).
Stats do apply to individuals and their computers, teams within and among projects, projects itself and...eventually, AMS - all based on BOINC.
(let's put differnt distributing platforms and supercomputers aside for now).
To be able to describe each type of computing resource in it's quantity - be it individual host, participant, team, BOINC project or AMS - we need to make clear what belongs where.

To make my rationale short: these classes, resp. their members, needs to be disjunctive.
To put it another way - those far from accurate numbers now presented on GR are results of breaking this disjunctive quality.
Another example - stats sites that have their own teams (BoincStats or BoincSynergy) doesn't claim that they have all the BOINC hosts available because their are hosting stats for all hosts/participants/projects.

I understand your point, Matt.
If you would like to use BOINC totals on GR site, it should be clear that those are not GR users numbers but BOINC totals. Correct GR numbers should be presented in any case.

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I understand your point, Matt.
If you would like to use BOINC totals on GR site, it should be clear that those are not GR users numbers but BOINC totals. Correct GR numbers should be presented in any case.

Is this possible?
Is there something in the XML that points to one or the other AMS?

It would be fine, but I have just signed up to GR, only not connected my lonesome puter to it, it stays with BAM!. How will my stats be counted? For BAM!? For GR? For both?

I would prefer the overall stats with soem disclaimer about being all of BOINC, not only GR. And, in case you can count the credits doen via GR, have them as well there (but only after a short period, it's not that fine to advertise a beginning from scratch ;).

And concerning the HP: I like (1) best.

I have a basic Account Manager question, and this seems to be as good a place as any right now to ask it.

When an existing BOINC user registers on an AM site, do they register with their existing project account (email and password - but what if the password is different on different projects?) or does the AM site generate new users for each project selected? If new user, can the stats be combined with the existing native BOINC accounts? Does the same Cross-Project ID already assigned to that email account get assigned through the Account Manager?

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nem·e·sis (nĕm'ĭ-sĭs) pronunciation
n., pl. -ses (-sēz').

1. An opponent that cannot be beaten or overcome.

2. One that inflicts retribution or vengeance.

It would be fine, but I have just signed up to GR, only not connected my lonesome puter to it, it stays with BAM!. How will my stats be counted? For BAM!? For GR? For both?

If the XML files are used, I understand you are crunching neither for BAM! nor for GR. Your computer is a part of the BOINC network system and thus counted on both.

The AMS you use doesn't matter in the end result where it says that the x-amount of computers are using BOINC.

Unless the AMS sites want to compete, of course. ;-)

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I have a basic Account Manager question, and this seems to be as good a place as any right now to ask it.

When an existing BOINC user registers on an AM site, do they register with their existing project account (email and password - but what if the password is different on different projects?) or does the AM site generate new users for each project selected? If new user, can the stats be combined with the existing native BOINC accounts? Does the same Cross-Project ID already assigned to that email account get assigned through the Account Manager?

With BAM!, you have to use the same nick and the same password for all your already running projects, new ones will get the same automaticly.

So, if you used different ones on different projects, you should change them first, otherwise you'll get the message: "wrong password" on the BAM! site.

With GR it seems to be possible to use different passwords, at least I got an error today despite using the same all over on GR, while trying to attach to Predictor. I had to use my old-fashioned account key to get it connected. But there was also a possibility to use another password afaik. At least there was an empty field to write anything in.

Is there something in the XML that points to one or the other AMS?

i am not well versed n the details of the stats XML files, but i don't think there is any indication of account manager status or association. there is no way currently for project servers to know this, much less report it.

I would prefer the overall stats with soem disclaimer about being all of BOINC, not only GR.

one issue about showing aggregate BOINC stats-- while we eventually will have more projects and even most projects, we will not have all projects. so aggregate BOINC stats could be misleading and confusing. we don't want to undersell boinc by saying "9 projects"; and we don't want to confuse users by saying "32 proejcts" on the home page and then showing only 9 elsewhere. this is why i advocated for 5, which says aggregate project stats, not aggregate boinc stats (nor aggregate GR stats), and which also indicates that all projects are independently operated. keep in mind: the home page is a place for a simple quick message-- we can break things down in more detail and more explictly on the "stats" page which we can discuss later.

When an existing BOINC user registers on an AM site, do they register with their existing project account (email and password - but what if the password is different on different projects?) or does the AM site generate new users for each project selected? If new user, can the stats be combined with the existing native BOINC accounts?

i can't say for BAM, which i haven't tried, but in GR you can "import" an account: if you register at GR with the same email as your project accounts, then when you "add" a project, the existing account will be imported rather than creating a new one, so you keep all your credits, preferences, etc... if passwords are different, you'll be asked. if emails are different, you need to go to the project website and change the email before attaching the project account to GR. (this will be explicated in the UI in the next day or two; it's simpler than it sounds.) and for your confidence: you can "defect" from GR any time and this does not affect your account.



ok, i am signing off now, not back till later in the weekend or tuesday (holiday weekend here in the usa, though i'll try to check in before tuesday)

I have a basic Account Manager question, and this seems to be as good a place as any right now to ask it.

When an existing BOINC user registers on an AM site, do they register with their existing project account (email and password - but what if the password is different on different projects?) or does the AM site generate new users for each project selected? If new user, can the stats be combined with the existing native BOINC accounts? Does the same Cross-Project ID already assigned to that email account get assigned through the Account Manager?

With BAM!, you use the same username/e-mail & password this then will find any accounts you already hold, if you don't have the same password on every project then it won't find all your accounts until you change the password at the project.

Once there all found there listed in a menu in BAM! from there you click a button to sign upto any new projects and that is done instantly for you, then sign up to a team etc etc

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I understand your point, Matt.
If you would like to use BOINC totals on GR site, it should be clear that those are not GR users numbers but BOINC totals. Correct GR numbers should be presented in any case.

I agree it should say x amount of users using BOINC and also X amount of users are using GR

It should be quite easy for you to find out how many people have signed up to GR and then how many are active, I assume once GR is in use on the client side it will talk to GR website every few hours or so to check to see if any preferences have been altered that it needs to update. So say someones client doesn't contact the server in 7 days they are classed as inactive and the user count goes down.

BAM! has an option to set how often it will contact back to the server I think its anything from 1 hr to 24 hrs

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