...

Tony Blair does not, however, personally run the entire UK government.

Someone should remind him of that.

Vote.

Always do.

Now give thanks to the Entity Of Your Personal Choice that you live in a country that holds meaningful elections.

So, speaking generally to the room, if my little tagline was the only bit causing a stir then should I take that to mean the rest of my analysis more or less represents everyone's understanding of reality?

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

Now give thanks to the Entity Of Your Personal Choice that you live in a country that holds meaningful elections.

So, speaking generally to the room, if my little tagline was the only bit causing a stir then should I take that to mean the rest of my analysis more or less represents everyone's understanding of reality?

No, but I think it's pointless to argue.

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Reality Internet Personality

No, but I think it's pointless to argue.

Which part of this didn't make sense?

Had the UN force done what it was sent to do, there would have been no Hezbollah to attack Israel.

With no Hezbollah, no IDF response.

With no IDF response, no Lebanese civilian used as human sheilds.

With no Lebanese civilians used as human shields, no Lebanese civilian deaths.

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

No, but I think it's pointless to argue.

Ah, these are just discussions.

I'm sure many people value them as a way to evaluate different points of view and conflicting ideas. Those that don't, won't read them. Certainly it is rare that these types of discussions show up in the media.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Which part of this didn't make sense?

Had the UN force done what it was sent to do, there would have been no Hezbollah to attack Israel.
With no Hezbollah, no IDF response.
With no IDF response, no Lebanese civilian used as human sheilds.
With no Lebanese civilians used as human shields, no Lebanese civilian deaths.

[/quote]
It all makes perfect sense. [edit] ... I do not deny it! It is perfect reasoning.

So it is the fault of the UN.

So what mandate did IDF have to go kick the living daytights out of LEBANON?

You have made a PERFECT argument for taking the matter to the UN and getting them to sort out THEIR OWN MESS!

How many more times do I have to reiterate that I would WELCOME the IDF kicking the Holy Cr*p and life out of Hezbollah. Where I dig my little toes in is where indiscriminate murder takes place. This DID happen, and it is no use you being in denial about it. WHOLE towns do not exist now in Lebanon except in large heaps of rubble.
Please do not insult my (or millions of others) intelligence by saying that was necessary! - against a force of no more than 5,000!
I say again, the IDF overreacted, used FAR more than minimum or proportionate force and had a DELIBERATE policy of leaving not one brick standing on another south of the Litani River.
Who the Hell are the IDF to decide that? I thought these were more enlightened times than the 1930's and early 40's. It clearly seems they are NOT!
That an United Nations force was there, the matter should have been raised IMMEDIATELY with the UN Security Council. The SC should have been, if necessary given an ultimatum ... that by such and such a time/date IF this does not stop, we WILL attack.
Was that done? NO!
I say again Israel and the US ought to hang their collective heads in shame.
My view. You obviously have yours. (oh!, and btw, as if it matetred - but as you made the point - I too am a Vet - of 4 major actions. I speak from experience when I say that what happened here was that a pinprick in the ass of an elephant was met with overwhelming force. And that force achieved a draw at very best. In the process it alienated a whole generation against the West. If you across the pond call that a "win" then it is because you have been brought up on a diet of Hollywood War epics!)

I feel so very sorry for the innocent of Lebanon, who have lost everything they had in an argument that was not theirs. I feel so sorry for the murdered and the bereaved. They now have NOTHING to go home to and NO prospect of Government help to rebuild their homes. OH yes, you ought to be ashamed.

Which part of this didn't make sense?

Had the UN force done what it was sent to do, there would have been no Hezbollah to attack Israel.
With no Hezbollah, no IDF response.
With no IDF response, no Lebanese civilian used as human sheilds.
With no Lebanese civilians used as human shields, no Lebanese civilian deaths.

It all makes perfect sense. [edit] ... I do not deny it! It is perfect reasoning.

So it is the fault of the UN.

So what mandate did IDF have to go kick the living daytights out of LEBANON?

Hezbollah committed an act of war against Israel. Despite anyone's belief to the contrary, nothing in the UN Charter prevents a member state from declaring war in response.

You have made a PERFECT argument for taking the matter to the UN and getting them to sort out THEIR OWN MESS!

With the nagging detail that Hezbollah was launching rockets at Israeli civilian population centers. The UN has been "working" on the Hezbollah problem for over 20 years, and it's quite understandable that the IDF wouldn't wait for the UN to act. The IDF is charged with defending Israel; not with making the UN look good.

Note that although Israel responded to a commando raid with a raid-in-force, it was Hezbollah that escalated the conflict by launching rockets at civilian targets. Then all Hell broke loose and Israel started targeting everything that they thought belonged to Hezbollah.

How many more times do I have to reiterate that I would WELCOME the IDF kicking the Holy Cr*p and life out of Hezbollah. Where I dig my little toes in is where indiscriminate murder takes place. This DID happen, and it is no use you being in denial about it. WHOLE towns do not exist now in Lebanon except in large heaps of rubble.

I went thru this before. Unless and until someone invents a weapon of mass destruction that only kills evil people, militaries will continue to use various means of imparting disruptive quantities of kinetic energy into their enemies. This is not a perfectly targetted process, but fear not... the civilized nations of the world have come up with a solution. Militaries with a gram of honor differentiate themselves from the civilian population. That way, the militaries can shoot at each other and the civilians' suffering is minimized (although never completely eliminated).

Hezbollah has not only targetted Israeli civilians, it has made itself indistinguishable from Lebanese civilians by both proximity and attire. The IDF went out of its way to protect the Lebanese civilians, appearing to care a lot more about the Lebanese than Hezbollah ever did. Hezbollah thus made it impossible to wage war upon them without harming Lebanese civilians.

Since this criminal mingling of warfighters and civilians did not prevent Hezbollah from launching attacks against Israel (and let me mention again it was against civilian targets), the IDF could not simply decline to engage. Hezbollah knew this and did not rectify the risk to civilians by relocating their rocket launchers. Therefore, Hezbollah's culpability was not only established at the begining of hostilities, but it was the result of an ongoing operational doctrine that intentionally imperilled civilians.

Please do not insult my (or millions of others) intelligence by saying that was necessary! - against a force of no more than 5,000!

See above why this was necessary... those 5000 were either in hardened bunkers -- built within sight of UN troops -- or they were launching indistriminant attacks from within civilian areas.

I say again, the IDF overreacted, used FAR more than minimum or proportionate force and had a DELIBERATE policy of leaving not one brick standing on another south of the Litani River.

First, Israel never signed anything limiting itself to proportionate attacks, and Hezbollah knew this when it started poking the hornets' nest.

Second, a so-called proportionate response would have been both immoral and ineffective. When someone steals $300 worth of stuff from someone's house, the penalty is jailtime, not a $300 fine. This created specific deterrance (that thief won't steal again while in prison) and general deterrance (making future thieves think twice before stealing).

Third, Israel would have gotten just as much condemnation from the world for a proportionate response (if such a thing existed) than it got for the action it took. Israel's mere existence is considered offensive to many, so it cannot take any action without "maxing out" world criticism.

Who the Hell are the IDF to decide that? I thought these were more enlightened times than the 1930's and early 40's. It clearly seems they are NOT!

The 1930's solution would be to shoot everything that moved. The 1940's solution would have been to carpet-bomb the whole area. Don't even pretend that either of those things happened.

That an United Nations force was there, the matter should have been raised IMMEDIATELY with the UN Security Council. The SC should have been, if necessary given an ultimatum ... that by such and such a time/date IF this does not stop, we WILL attack.
Was that done? NO!

Israel gave prior notice that it reserved the right to defend itself if UN resolution 1559 (the one where Hezbollah was to be disarmed) failed to protect Israel from Hezbollah aggression. The UN force in theater knew this and still failed to act.

I say again Israel and the US ought to hang their collective heads in shame.
My view. You obviously have yours. (oh!, and btw, as if it matetred - but as you made the point - I too am a Vet - of 4 major actions. I speak from experience when I say that what happened here was that a pinprick in the ass of an elephant was met with overwhelming force. And that force achieved a draw at very best. In the process it alienated a whole generation against the West. If you across the pond call that a "win" then it is because you have been brought up on a diet of Hollywood War epics!)

Had the IDF been allowed to finish (and in this case I am placing blame on the Israeli leadership, not so much the UN) then it would have demonstrated that sponsoring terrorist organizations, as opposed to whatever other means of influence a nation has, is unacceptable and will lead to pain rather than results.

However, the UN has reverted to form and prevented an immoral aggressor from suffering the consequences of its actions. With the possibility of irradication off the table, an unlimited number of attempts at obliterating (insert infidel group here) become feasible.

I feel so very sorry for the innocent of Lebanon, who have lost everything they had in an argument that was not theirs.

Who started it? Who escalated it? Who made it impossible to avoid damaging these homes?

I feel so sorry for the murdered and the bereaved.

Who aimed their attacks at civilians? Who hid their war machines among civilians? Who failed to let its captives communicate with the Red Cross? Who systemmatically violated every clause of the Geneva Conventions that was within their power to do so? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Israel.

They now have NOTHING to go home to and NO prospect of Government help to rebuild their homes.

And for this they have Hezbollah to thank.

OH yes, you ought to be ashamed.

The only thing that US should be ashamed of is not selling the IDF "bunker-buster" munitions. The only thing that Israel should be ashamed of is weak-kneed leadership. The only thing that Lebanon should be ashamned of is being too proud to ask for assistance when it clearly could not discharge its duties as a soveriegn state. The list of things for which Hezbollah should be ashamed is nearly endless.

EDIT: formatting

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

The only thing that Lebanon should be ashamned of is being too proud to ask for assistance when it clearly could not discharge its duties as a soveriegn state.

Lebanon has been under the thumb of Syria and even Iran, and may well feel shame. And probably even more shame as an Arab state if seeking help from the UN (the West) which does not give it the freedom of choice that you may assume.

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flaming balloons

The only thing that Lebanon should be ashamned of is being too proud to ask for assistance when it clearly could not discharge its duties as a soveriegn state.

Lebanon has been under the thumb of Syria and even Iran, and may well feel shame. And probably even more shame as an Arab state if seeking help from the UN (the West) which does not give it the freedom of choice that you may assume.

First, the UN supposedly exists to protect weak nations from aggressive ones (when the weak nation is in the right).

Second, please change the picture in your signature. It's vulgar and quite distracting from any point you might be trying to make.

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

Second, please change the picture in your signature. It's vulgar and quite distracting from any point you might be trying to make.

Good point. My apologies

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flaming balloons

So the UN leader Annan ( as in NON action ) has stated that it is going to take " weeks perhaps MONTHS " for a UN Security Force to be put in place to help keep the cease fire.

Gee, how BRILLIANT!

Let's see here, the UN came up with a resolution to enact a cease fire between Hezbollah and Israel. In that resolution it is stated that the UN will put in place a security force to enforce the agreement. Now the head of the UN says that it's gonna take a while to get that security force in place.

Talk about dragging your feet.

For all the good that the LAST resolution ( you know, the one where the UN forces were supposed to DISARM Hezbollah ) did, does anyone really think that this latest resolution is going to do one IOTA OF GOOD?

While the UN drags it's feet in it's usual manner, Hezbollah gets time to re-arm itself.

That an United Nations force was there, the matter should have been raised IMMEDIATELY with the UN Security Council.

Bodley. Can you HONESTLY sit there and claim that the UN has been effective in ANYTHING that has to do with Hezbollah and Israel? Israel could have gone to the UN Security Council, but for WHAT? It was already evident that the UN Security Council wouldn't hold up it's end of the deal. They had a mandate to DISARM Hezbollah, yet the Security forces took no action when Hezbollah was setting up bunkers and firing positions RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSES.

The UN is utterly ineffective. All the " resolutions " in the world mean NOTHING to a group like Hezbollah. Keep in mind that Hezbollah is not a MEMBER of the UN, so any resolution has no bearing on them. When the UN comes up with one of their utterly ineffective resolutions, Hezbollah can basically sit there and laugh at them. Then proceed to do whatever they want.

They kept firing rockets at Israel after the cease fire took effect. What were they doing? Just firing off those rockets just to get rid of them so they had no ammunition left? Hardly.

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

First, the UN supposedly exists to protect weak nations from aggressive ones (when the weak nation is in the right).

Yes it does. But it doesn't succeed because (Arab) countries like Lebanon will not seek to co-operate - which is what you were saying about Lebanon's need for shame. But it's a willful act on the part of Lebanon not to co-operate since it has amongst it's leaders those that will refuse to co-operate with 'the West' in any form.

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flaming balloons

The UN is utterly ineffective. All the " resolutions " in the world mean NOTHING to a group like Hezbollah. Keep in mind that Hezbollah is not a MEMBER of the UN, so any resolution has no bearing on them. When the UN comes up with one of their utterly ineffective resolutions, Hezbollah can basically sit there and laugh at them. Then proceed to do whatever they want.

This is not strictly true. While they may not care or heed the resolution, unless and until Hezbollah declares itself an independant country they still fall under the juristiction of the UN resolutions by dint of being in Lebanon (a UN member).

This is why a hypothetical UN resolution about drug smuggling could be applied to Mexican or Columbian or Turkish or whatever drug lords even if the drug cartels themselves never signed up for UN membership.

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

The UN is utterly ineffective. All the " resolutions " in the world mean NOTHING to a group like Hezbollah. Keep in mind that Hezbollah is not a MEMBER of the UN, so any resolution has no bearing on them. When the UN comes up with one of their utterly ineffective resolutions, Hezbollah can basically sit there and laugh at them. Then proceed to do whatever they want.

This is not strictly true. While they may not care or heed the resolution, unless and until Hezbollah declares itself an independant country they still fall under the juristiction of the UN resolutions by dint of being in Lebanon (a UN member).

This is why a hypothetical UN resolution about drug smuggling could be applied to Mexican or Columbian or Turkish or whatever drug lords even if the drug cartels themselves never signed up for UN membership.

Ok. So Lebanon is a member of the UN. I wasn't sure about that so thanks for clearing that up for me.

However, even though Lebanon itself is a member, Hezbollah has shown that it has no concern at all for the PEOPLE of Lebanon. Running a military action while dressed like civilians and placing weapons stores and firing positions in civilian areas is enough of an indication that Hezbollah will do nothing more than sit and laugh at the UN while it re-arms itself and prepares for the next round of atacks.

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

The UN is utterly ineffective. All the " resolutions " in the world mean NOTHING to a group like Hezbollah. Keep in mind that Hezbollah is not a MEMBER of the UN, so any resolution has no bearing on them. When the UN comes up with one of their utterly ineffective resolutions, Hezbollah can basically sit there and laugh at them. Then proceed to do whatever they want.

This is not strictly true. While they may not care or heed the resolution, unless and until Hezbollah declares itself an independant country they still fall under the juristiction of the UN resolutions by dint of being in Lebanon (a UN member).

This is why a hypothetical UN resolution about drug smuggling could be applied to Mexican or Columbian or Turkish or whatever drug lords even if the drug cartels themselves never signed up for UN membership.

Ok. So Lebanon is a member of the UN. I wasn't sure about that so thanks for clearing that up for me.

However, even though Lebanon itself is a member, Hezbollah has shown that it has no concern at all for the PEOPLE of Lebanon. Running a military action while dressed like civilians and placing weapons stores and firing positions in civilian areas is enough of an indication that Hezbollah will do nothing more than sit and laugh at the UN while it re-arms itself and prepares for the next round of atacks.

That why I said it's not "strictly" true, in the same sense that the laws passed by the state legislature supposedly apply in a gang-infested neighborhood, but no one seems to get around to enforcing them.

I just didn't want to leave any room for the argument that Hezbollah was somehow not guilty of war crimes simply because it doesn't care.

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

The UN is utterly ineffective. All the " resolutions " in the world mean NOTHING to a group like Hezbollah. Keep in mind that Hezbollah is not a MEMBER of the UN, so any resolution has no bearing on them. When the UN comes up with one of their utterly ineffective resolutions, Hezbollah can basically sit there and laugh at them. Then proceed to do whatever they want.

This is not strictly true. While they may not care or heed the resolution, unless and until Hezbollah declares itself an independant country they still fall under the juristiction of the UN resolutions by dint of being in Lebanon (a UN member).

This is why a hypothetical UN resolution about drug smuggling could be applied to Mexican or Columbian or Turkish or whatever drug lords even if the drug cartels themselves never signed up for UN membership.

Ok. So Lebanon is a member of the UN. I wasn't sure about that so thanks for clearing that up for me.

However, even though Lebanon itself is a member, Hezbollah has shown that it has no concern at all for the PEOPLE of Lebanon. Running a military action while dressed like civilians and placing weapons stores and firing positions in civilian areas is enough of an indication that Hezbollah will do nothing more than sit and laugh at the UN while it re-arms itself and prepares for the next round of atacks.

That why I said it's not "strictly" true, in the same sense that the laws passed by the state legislature supposedly apply in a gang-infested neighborhood, but no one seems to get around to enforcing them.

I just didn't want to leave any room for the argument that Hezbollah was somehow not guilty of war crimes simply because it doesn't care.

Fair enough Octagon. That is one argument that you won't be getting from me. lol

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

OK ... I have not succeeded with a rational argument ... so let me say thia ...

I agree with EVERYTHING you say. There is not a point I would argue to extinction ...

But can you search your soul and tell me that the answer is to bomb the living CR*P out of the land south of the Litani?

Because if you DO, then I hope you will never have to go through the assault on your sovereign territory that others have had to endure. To see everything you gave yourself and your life to, smashed by a bomb is not the nicest of things. It is something that you in America will NEVER see on the scale of what has happened to Southern Lebanon. You are insulated from this REALITY that the rest of us have to live by, day after day, by thousands of miles of ocean on either side.

It is very brave to sit back 5,000 miles behind the front line while women and children and babies are being slaughtered by "your side". What a big man you are! What a super sweet thinking man! What a hero!
I am sure you won all the 27 medals you wear every Vets day - including the medal for being first in line for chow-call! You are not big for calling for the wanton killing of 80 year-olds who are damned whichever way! You are not big for flexing your muscles against 6-year-old children with American Munitions. I HAD hoped that humanity today had progressed beyond that.

You have proven, positive, that mankind, led by America, is either too blind or too inarticulate to see and abide by the TRUTH.

Whilst I agree with your view that Hezbollah should be evaporated, I cannot agree that you should do this by waging war against old women and babies. You will beat them for sure (the only certainty that America has ever lived by) but you will never kill their spirit. Be very careful that this does not come back to bite you in the ass one day.

I despair. You are all beyond redemption, and may your good god have mercy on you when you come to meet him.

It is very brave to sit back 5,000 miles behind the front line while women and children and babies are being slaughtered by "your side". What a big man you are! What a super sweet thinking man! What a hero!
I am sure you won all the 27 medals you wear every Vets day - including the medal for being first in line for chow-call! You are not big for calling for the wanton killing of 80 year-olds who are damned whichever way! You are not big for flexing your muscles against 6-year-old children with American Munitions. I HAD hoped that humanity today had progressed beyond that.

David. Sheesh. Lay off the hyperbole. Whatever point you are trying to make just gets lost in it.

If you want to make the point that war is horrible, you have. Just as that point has been made billions of times.

But the behavior you decry is the wrong one. Those that fight in civilian clothes are the ones that put your 80-year-olds at risk, not those in uniform that seek to stop them.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

It is very brave to sit back 5,000 miles behind the front line while women and children and babies are being slaughtered by "your side". What a big man you are! What a super sweet thinking man! What a hero!
I am sure you won all the 27 medals you wear every Vets day - including the medal for being first in line for chow-call! You are not big for calling for the wanton killing of 80 year-olds who are damned whichever way! You are not big for flexing your muscles against 6-year-old children with American Munitions. I HAD hoped that humanity today had progressed beyond that.

David. Sheesh. Lay off the hyperbole. Whatever point you are trying to make just gets lost in it.

If you want to make the point that war is horrible, you have. Just as that point has been made billions of times.

But the behavior you decry is the wrong one. Those that fight in civilian clothes are the ones that put your 80-year-olds at risk, not those in uniform that seek to stop them.

Not only is the hyperbole unnecessary, but some of his comments are downright insulting to those who have served in the military.

A medal for " being first in line for chow-call "? Come on Bodley, that was completely uncalled for, especially coming from someone who has served in the armed forces.

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

[But the behavior you decry is the wrong one. Those that fight in civilian clothes are the ones that put your 80-year-olds at risk, not those in uniform that seek to stop them.

RB ... have you ever seen a Hezbollah militiaman?
He wears a uniform. It is the one thing that separates him from the Sunni Militia (who wear NO uniform)
The Shia wear a Black uniform. They can be seen for miles in day. They operate most effectively at night.
(Oh! Dear!)

BTW - Most of the Lebanese Army ... as is the population of Lebanon, Syria and Iraq ... are Shia.
This fits in well with Iran and the Ayatollahs there. A DEMOCRATIC Iraq is a SHIA Iraq.
The Sunni sect of Islam sits happily with Israel. The Sunnis believe in the 3 great books: Q'uran, Bible and Torah. The adherents of each are known to the Sunni as "Al Kitab" (of the Book).
Hello! ... it is the Shia who are the problem!
Ergo ... if the megalomaniac in the White house had not, incoherently called for the deposition of Saddam Hussein (a Sunni), Iraq today would be as it was - a bulwark between Iraq and Syria. Bush pulled that brick out of the wall and THIS is the result!
Perhaps the BEST thing that the West could ever hope for is to bring Saddam Hussein out of prison and reinstate him in Iraq - and let him get on with it.
THEN ... NO rockets would get through to Lebanon to have Hezbollah (formed and staffed and supplied and funded by IRAN) fire the blessed things at Israel!
Do you guys REALLY think that Hezbollah just incarnated a few months ago? Fools!
Hezbollah was formed in IRAN as an army to fight Israel - and the West, if necessary. Trained supplied and funded by Iran! IRAQ - and YOUR erstwhile friend - was the one thing stopping them getting to Israel. EVEN ISRAEL ACCEPTS THIS!!
Saddam Hussein was your best ally in this region. Now you have to live with the consequence of what you have done. (How long did it take for Saddam Hussein to log up the body-count that America has ... on BOTH sides in 3 years? Try decades - a couple or more at least!)
Well done America ... YOU unleashed this mayhem on Israel.

OK ... I have not succeeded with a rational argument ... so let me say thia ...

I agree with EVERYTHING you say. There is not a point I would argue to extinction ...

But can you search your soul and tell me that the answer is to bomb the living CR*P out of the land south of the Litani?

<snipped out ad hominen attacks>

And what, exactly, what Israel supposed to do? Let the rockets continue to fall on its civilians?

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.