Hello!

I know that Simon wrote a app too...

But now Cruch3rs S@H V5.12 is faster on AMDs...

Simon will look to make his faster on AMDs...

I wrote here simply only my opinion because of the special app of SETI.USA...


Greetings!

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Yes this version is only for seti.usa users.
When i remember Daniel S. was beta tester in our team with crunch3rs app.
He learned enough to compile his own and now its limited to his group.
Nice try.

Mike

That sseems to open a can of worms, doesn't it?

Firstly, It brings the science vs credit arguement to the fore - optimized applications that work faster can only be good for getting more science done. As such it is IMO wrong to limit or withhold it.

Secondly, the SETI application is release under the GPL I thought. I guess it's 'legal' to build a version for personal private use without general release, but surely it is wrong, as in 'not permitted', to release a derived application to a limited audience 'for gain' (more credit)?

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Mike, the gain in this case is sufficiently non-tangible that this does most probably not apply.

The GPL specifically states that their usage model is permitted. Let it stay at that - you're entitled to your own opinion about their decision, of course, but it isn't going to change anything. They've chosen their path, let them stick with it and see where it goes.

Regards,
Simon.

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Yes this version is only for seti.usa users.
When i remember Daniel S. was beta tester in our team with crunch3rs app.
He learned enough to compile his own and now its limited to his group.
Nice try.

Mike

That sseems to open a can of worms, doesn't it?

Firstly, It brings the science vs credit arguement to the fore - optimized applications that work faster can only be good for getting more science done. As such it is IMO wrong to limit or withhold it.

Secondly, the SETI application is release under the GPL I thought. I guess it's 'legal' to build a version for personal private use without general release, but surely it is wrong, as in 'not permitted', to release a derived application to a limited audience 'for gain' (more credit)?

While the SETI.USA group can limit the initial release the application to only their team members, my opinion is that they can NOT restrict further distribution.

The GPL state: "...if you distribute copies of such a program, whether
gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that
you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the
source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their
rights."

While they may argue that the distribution is within a limited group and as such the software is "owned" by the group, the group may not be considered a "legal entity" like a company or non-profit group is. As such, they can not take back the software if someone leaves their group.

If I were to join their group, obtain the software and source code, and quit the group, they could not tell me to remove the software or not release the software to anyone I want to. When they gave me the software, they also gave me the right to re-distribute the software.

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That's not true.

You may only distribute the application if you also offer the source code that was used to compile it.

So unless you get a source package along with the app, you are not allowed to distribute it legally.

HTH,
Simon.

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That's not true.

You may only distribute the application if you also offer the source code that was used to compile it.

So unless you get a source package along with the app, you are not allowed to distribute it legally.

HTH,
Simon.

Simon,

Please re-read the first sentence of the third paragraph.

My assumption is that they will comply with the terms of the GPL and provide the source code.

If the source code is not packaged with the binary, then it needs to be available for a period of 3 years.

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Yes, but they only have to make it available on request (and provide details where to request this).

So, you'd have to join their team, request the sources, get them and the client, and you're good to go. Not that I'm encouraging anyone to do so as it's ethically pretty troubling.

Regards,
Simon.

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Yes, but they only have to make it available on request (and provide details where to request this).

So, you'd have to join their team, request the sources, get them and the client, and you're good to go. Not that I'm encouraging anyone to do so as it's ethically pretty troubling.

Regards,
Simon.

Of course the issue of publicly announcing a "private" release of a GPL'ed project is sort ethically troublesome in and of itself, regardless of whether they are technically in compliance with the terms of the license or not. But that's a whole other kettle of woodchucks. ;-)

I'm assuming that's one of the reasons you chose to be fully "transparent" with your efforts. :-)

Alinator

You're correct in that assumption.

They didn't announce it, in fact, I did that for them.
SargeD posted they had a team vote and decided to keep it team-only after that.

The thing is, they had to know someone would notice by looking at results (that's how I saw it), so my original opinion on that decision is unchanged - it was a bad one and made for the wrong reasons (again: this is my personal opinion).

HTH,
Simon.

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Yes, and after review here in NC and browsing their web site, I stand corrected about any announcements. Also, to SetiUSA's credit there's no indication of using it as a recruiting tool either, so apologies offered in this regard.

In any event I agree with your opinion here in that it seems to go counter to the intent Berkeley had by releasing SAH under GPL, but you can't fault them for exercising their rights under the license anyway they see fit.

Alinator

Yes, and after review here in NC and browsing their web site, I stand corrected about any announcements. Also, to SetiUSA's credit there's no indication of using it as a recruiting tool either, so apologies offered in this regard.

Except in their recruitment thread.

This is just another piece of information that shows how much SETI.USA stinks. They're willing to slow down a project's science in order to try and reach the #1 spot.

They have the legal right to keep the app to themselves but that doesn't address the moral issue. Morally, it's a lame move by a bunch of credit whores. This is no longer a good-natured competition between teams and countries. SETI.USA doesn't care about the science, but instead its own image.

SETI.USA's "WE WILL WIN AT ALL COSTS" is the worst aspect of American patriotism, and it's embarrassing. It's the same mindset that this country's leaders have used since 2001 to make this country hated around the world, and the team is living up to that standard. SETI.USA is unable to grasp that the US might not be the best at something in the world, and is willing to sabotage a scientific project to get to the top. Pathetic.

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Yes, and after review here in NC and browsing their web site, I stand corrected about any announcements. Also, to SetiUSA's credit there's no indication of using it as a recruiting tool either, so apologies offered in this regard.

Except in their recruitment thread.

This is just another piece of information that shows how much SETI.USA stinks. They're willing to slow down a project's science in order to try and reach the #1 spot.

They have the legal right to keep the app to themselves but that doesn't address the moral issue. Morally, it's a lame move by a bunch of credit whores. This is no longer a good-natured competition between teams and countries. SETI.USA doesn't care about the science, but instead its own image.

SETI.USA's "WE WILL WIN AT ALL COSTS" is the worst aspect of American patriotism, and it's embarrassing. It's the same mindset that this country's leaders have used since 2001 to make this country hated around the world, and the team is living up to that standard. SETI.USA is unable to grasp that the US might not be the best at something in the world, and is willing to sabotage a scientific project to get to the top. Pathetic.

Not all Americans have a Win at any cost attitude, That's usually reserved for if ones desperate and I for one am not. And Yes I'm an American.

I'm American too. And that's why I'm embarrassed by SETI.USA's behavior. They're pulling dirty tricks in this country's name. None of the other top teams, like Germany or the Czechs, have done this. Leave it to American zealots to make us all look bad. Kind of like our President.

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SETI.USA's "WE WILL WIN AT ALL COSTS" is the worst aspect of American patriotism, and it's embarrassing. It's the same mindset that this country's leaders have used since 2001 to make this country hated around the world, and the team is living up to that standard. SETI.USA is unable to grasp that the US might not be the best at something in the world, and is willing to sabotage a scientific project to get to the top. Pathetic.

Not all Americans have a Win at any cost attitude, That's usually reserved for if ones desperate and I for one am not. And Yes I'm an American.

I am also an American and am currently hoping the ychange the name of their Team! They have done something that I think they will regret for a long time to come! I am sure they 'thought' they were doing the right thing, after they did pay for it themselves, but then again so did Simon, with a little help from some VERY gracious friends!!! Seti.USA could have even come out of this smelling like the most fragrant of roses, if they had but sucked it up and offered it out of the goodness of their hearts for the good of the project to everyone. But they did not, instead they fell into the greed mode and left it at that!

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[quote]SETI.USA's "WE WILL WIN AT ALL COSTS" is the worst aspect of American patriotism, and it's embarrassing. It's the same mindset that this country's leaders have used since 2001 to make this country hated around the world, and the team is living up to that standard. SETI.USA is unable to grasp that the US might not be the best at something in the world, and is willing to sabotage a scientific project to get to the top. Pathetic.

Not all Americans have a Win at any cost attitude, That's usually reserved for if ones desperate and I for one am not. And Yes I'm an American.

I am also an American and am currently hoping they change the name of their Team! They have done something that I think they will regret for a long time to come! I am sure they 'thought' they were doing the right thing, after they did pay for it themselves, but then again so did Simon, with a little help from some VERY gracious friends!!! Seti.USA could have even come out of this smelling like the most fragrant of roses, if they had but sucked it up and offered it out of the goodness of their hearts for the good of the project to everyone. But they did not, instead they fell into the greed mode and left it at that!
I just did a search on their Team and their #1 guy has 531 hosts and around 95,000 credits per day!!! BUT he is still ONLY #2 overall, #1 has his computers hidden, but is getting around 105,000 credits PER DAY!!!!
http://www.boincsynergy.com/stats/boinc-stats.php?id=22&project=sah
Maybe that is why they are trying sooooo hard!

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Interesting thread. :)

Members (note the plural) of SETI.USA spent the time working to develop an optimized application and the $$ to finance such a development. As a team it was decided to keep it within the team.

We did not publicly announce this. This has certainly been discussed. Imagine if we said "Yeah we have an application, but we are choosing to keep it within the confines of the team." Hmmmm I imagine that the response would have been "Geee thanks for informing us (the public). We do appreciate that your team informed the general public that you produced an application
and have chosen to a limited release..."

Understood that there are those out there that believe that what we chose to do was out of "greed"/recruitment/etc. The members directly involved did this out of kinship. Is was our decision and we respect other's difference of opinion.

@KWSN Chicken - For clarification. We decided upon this before development. And I'll be the first to say that we did know that eventually it would be discovered. I hope my above explanation clarifies why we remained silent.

@Matt Davis - You are clearly mistaken.

...None of the other top teams, like Germany or the Czechs, have done this. Leave it to American zealots to make us all look bad. Kind of like our President.

In the days of TruXoft and Crunch3r...L'Alliance Francophone had a Team application. They did not publicly announce here they had an application (it had a modest higher calibration than TruXoft). But if one looked hard enough, it could be found. (Note: I discoverd this the same way KWSN-Chciken discovered ours.) Just another example of Matt trying to find a way to say SETI.USA is bad blah blah blah...really it is getting old.

Your team still looks bad even if I stopped posting about it. Me shutting up doesn't change anything - it just helps hide it.

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Your team still looks bad even if I stopped posting about it. Me shutting up doesn't change anything - it just helps hide it.

You are welcome to post about our team. I am just saying practice a bit more responsibility when making the kind of statement you made. :)

...Members (note the plural) of SETI.USA spent the time working to develop an optimized application and the $$ to finance such a development. As a team it was decided to keep it within the team.

We did not publicly announce this. This has certainly been discussed...

@KWSN Chicken - For clarification. We decided upon this before development. And I'll be the first to say that we did know that eventually it would be discovered. I hope my above explanation clarifies why we remained silent...

Clearly, SETI.USA have decided that they will USE (selfishly) the points scoring system of Boinc-s@h for their ego trip. Meanwhile, they also appear to consider that the science can be damned.

If the science aspect of s@h is so irrelevant, has SETI.USA made any contributions to the running costs of Berkeley providing (for free) the services of Boinc, s@h, and these forums?

(I'm tempted to allude to comparisons to the business practices of a Mr William Gates... but I'd better not incite this thread to go any lower...)

Regards,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

I'll start by quoting the relevent portion of the GPL:

"The GPL does not require you to release your modified version. You are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally without ever releasing it outside the organization. But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the program's users, under the GPL.

Thus, the GPL gives permission to release the modified program in certain ways, and not in other ways; but the decision of whether to release it is up to you."

There have been many misconceptions about our motivation to produce our own "in house" optimized applications. The same reasons that drove Crunch3r to leave this project, and stop developing and distributing optimized apps for public consumption are high on the list. Also, the tools necessary to develop these applications are very expensive, and it is a painstaking, time consuming process. We decided that we did not want to become dependant upon others to produce such applications in the future. One of our team members purchased the expensive Intel software out of his own pocket. I purchased a full commercial version of Visual C++.NET out of MY own pocket. It was not "greed" on our part that prompted us not to release our apps outside our organization.

It is almost funny to see people insulting our team and our members every chance they get, then in the next breath, think they should be entitled to our work. One has only to look at what was done to Crunch3r, who funded the majority of HIS OWN commercial development software, not to mention the countless hours of his time, and one can see why we chose not to distribute our apps.

Simon has chosen to take the same chances as Crunch3r. He has done a wonderful thing for people he doesn't even know. How was he treated? Some jacka$$ listed his website as PORNOGRAPHIC!!! That was an utterly despicable act perpetrated by a very depraved person!!! That's the respect he got for creating his apps for all of you. I respect Simon very much for what he has done, but I do not envy him one little bit. Now HE will have the consequenses of having to deal with those who feel they are entitled to his work, and demanding that he add this feature or that feature. Although many people have thanked him, there are others that seem to think it is now his DUTY to provide the world with optimized apps. To Simon, you have my sympathy. You've done an outstanding job!

We at SETI.USA, however, have chosen to develop private applications as a courtesy to our members, so they no longer have to rely upon the kindness of someone like Crunch3r or Simon to produce and support them. Since we did not publicly release them, we don't have the headache of dealing with support for individuals who insult and verbally abuse our team and our members with every opportunity they get, and in many cases, go out of their way to insult us. Our applications were created for those who contribute to our success, NOT for those who insult us, or seek to discredit us.

Those who are not members of our team are now free to download and use Simon's excellent applications, or purchase the expensive development software themselves, and invest the LONG HOURS to develop and thouroughly test their OWN apps, and make SURE that they are producing VALID, "STRONGLY SIMILAR" results.

Regards, Daniel.

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Clearly, SETI.USA have decided that they will USE (selfishly) the points scoring system of Boinc-s@h for their ego trip. Meanwhile, they also appear to consider that the science can be damned.

Our applications were thouroughly and painstakingly tested, first in standalone mode, then on Seti Beta site before being released for production. Saying that we as a team "consider that the science can be damned" is utterly irresponsible. That is a serious accusation, and totally unfounded. This is a classic example of WHY we chose to develop our apps for team use only.

has SETI.USA made any contributions to the running costs of Berkeley providing (for free) the services of Boinc, s@h, and these forums?

Absolutely. A great MANY of our members have contributed financially to this project, including myself. Some have chosen to keep their contributions anonymous. It would be best to research your facts before making such unfounded accusations.

(I'm tempted to allude to comparisons to the business practices of a Mr William Gates... but I'd better not incite this thread to go any lower...)

Regards,
Martin

It would be difficult to go any lower than you already have, Martin. Before making these types of allegations in the future, you'd be wise to have even a slight modicum of proof.

Regards, Daniel.

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