... I just had some difficulties to explain in English what I meant and didn't want to post it in German :-)

Warum nicht?

Weil die Mehrheit hier Englisch spricht und kein Deutsch.
(because the majority here is speaking English and not German)

And I can't expect everyone to understand foreign languages, so because it's an English-speaking (okay -writing) forum, I try to use the English language as good as I can. (Though sometimes I could need a second Pentecost miracle)

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Account frozen...

... I just had some difficulties to explain in English what I meant and didn't want to post it in German :-)

Warum nicht?

Weil die Mehrheit hier Englisch spricht und kein Deutsch.
(because the majority here is speaking English and not German)

Aber wir kannst mit the Babel fish webpage translate!

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

... I just had some difficulties to explain in English what I meant and didn't want to post it in German :-)

Warum nicht?

Weil die Mehrheit hier Englisch spricht und kein Deutsch.
(because the majority here is speaking English and not German)

Aber wir kannst mit the Babel fish webpage translate!

Ouch! You can use Babelfish only for fun, but not for a real serious translating.

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Account frozen...

Ouch! You can use Babelfish only for fun, but not for a real serious translating.

Ich würde denken, daß jemand mit etwas rudimentärem Verständnis der Sprache, die sie übersetzen, könnte irgendein Störungen, die aus dem Verwenden automatisiert, nicht programmierbares und entstehen alleinstehendes Übersetzungsprogramm sich verfangen und regeln.

I would think that someone with some rudimentary understanding of the language they are translating to could catch and fix some errors that arise from using an automated, non-intelligent and non-interactive translating program.

---

Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Ouch! You can use Babelfish only for fun, but not for a real serious translating.

Ich würde denken, daß jemand mit etwas rudimentärem Verständnis der Sprache, die sie übersetzen, könnte irgendein Störungen, die aus dem Verwenden automatisiert, nicht programmierbares und entstehen alleinstehendes Übersetzungsprogramm sich verfangen und regeln.

I would think that someone with some rudimentary understanding of the language they are translating to could catch and fix some errors that arise from using an automated, non-intelligent and non-interactive translating program.

LOL! I would think that someone would know disturbances, which automates from using with somewhat rudimentary understanding of the language, which they translate any not programmable and develops unmarried translation program gotten caught and to regulate itself.

Now, seeing what that translates back to (supposedly), if I had time I could work out a better translation through progressive refinements.

---

Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Okay - Sarge, you've seen the problem. Now let's go back to topic if possible.

BTW: I only use one program - Ding, a Dictionary look-up - to look for words I don't know or I don't remember. For each other mistake made by me - like grammar etc. - I can be blamed myself.

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Account frozen...

Okay - Sarge, you've seen the problem. Now let's go back to topic if possible.

BTW: I only use one program - Ding, a Dictionary look-up - to look for words I don't know or I don't remember. For each other mistake made by me - like grammar etc. - I can be blamed myself.

You should include the post about the "Flat Earth" here as well.

---

Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Okay - Sarge, you've seen the problem. Now let's go back to topic if possible.

BTW: I only use one program - Ding, a Dictionary look-up - to look for words I don't know or I don't remember. For each other mistake made by me - like grammar etc. - I can be blamed myself.

You should include the post about the "Flat Earth" here as well.

I don't believe in a flat earth - though the flat world of Terry Pretchett is funny enough

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Account frozen...

Oh well...
Yes it is true that religion is often used as a disguise for fraud, and private interests. But that doesn't mean that all religions are like that, or that all people who believe in a religion (or in their funders) are brainless fools.
Sure some folks just use the faith of their disciples to gain all their money or to do criminal things - but that doesn't mean that all church leaders or religions are likewise.

We can also compare this to the cases, such as the recent case involving the Korean genetics researcher, where "rational" men of science engage in fraud to gain money.
Neither religion nor science change human nature.

its not fraud, they gave their $3,000 freely. Who is to say that its theft ?

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So you are agreeing with that what W. I. Lenin, the founder of the Soviet Union, said a hundred years ago?
"Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation. Impotence of the exploited classes in their struggle against the exploiters just as inevitably gives rise to the belief in a better life after death as impotence of the savage in his battle with nature gives rise to belief in gods, devils, miracles, and the like. Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labour of others are taught by religion to practise charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man."

Hardly, how can my statement even be remotely connected with this political ideal. Perhaps if viewed out of context. Are you trying to dodge the question?

I suggested that organised religion (note the word organised) and believing in GOD per se has nothing to do with sound ethics. In fact some of the most ethical people i know are agnostics or atheists.

I also mentioned that organised religion is used as a tool to suppress (and manipulate and……). Note that what individuals believe is safe enough (it’s between them and their God) and cannot be used to exert control, extract money or for example start wars.

I would go so far as to say that organised religion is an outright threat to the continued existence and survival of humanity period.

Ethical practices should be established, indecently of all organised religious beliefs. Should these be adopted they can be used in all walks of life (and science for instance). People are free to believe what ever they like

There have been only some too many unexplainable coincidences to begin to doubt the pure materialistic, scientific view on life - and when people told me about God, I searched everywhere about religions, what they believe why and how, and I read religious books and books about religion, pros and cons, until I found out that the Bible was the one truth for me. It was not just replacing one conviction with another or being pressed into a religion. It was struggle - with the matter itself, and with what I believed to be true before. I myself converted because of my own will and my own efforts. If you had read my part of the thread, you could have read that I was treated as a traitor by my family after my baptism.

What are these unexplainable coincidences?

May i ask why you were searching for god?

That there are people who hide their particular interests behind the coat of religion, that's clear and unfortunately not changeable. I mentioned before that you can't mangle them all together.

Entire governments do it. Look at non secular governments for example.

If organised religions were dissolved, this problem would go away.

So you are agreeing with that what W. I. Lenin, the founder of the Soviet Union, said a hundred years ago?
"Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation. Impotence of the exploited classes in their struggle against the exploiters just as inevitably gives rise to the belief in a better life after death as impotence of the savage in his battle with nature gives rise to belief in gods, devils, miracles, and the like. Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labour of others are taught by religion to practise charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze, in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man."

Hardly, how can my statement even be remotely connected with this political ideal. Perhaps if viewed out of context. Are you trying to dodge the question?

I suggested that organised religion (note the word organised) and believing in GOD per se has nothing to do with sound ethics. In fact some of the most ethical people i know are agnostics or atheists.

I also mentioned that organised religion is used as a tool to suppress (and manipulate and……). Note that what individuals believe is safe enough (it’s between them and their God) and cannot be used to exert control, extract money or for example start wars.

I would go so far as to say that organised religion is an outright threat to the continued existence and survival of humanity period.

Ethical practices should be established, indecently of all organised religious beliefs. Should these be adopted they can be used in all walks of life (and science for instance). People are free to believe what ever they like

There have been only some too many unexplainable coincidences to begin to doubt the pure materialistic, scientific view on life - and when people told me about God, I searched everywhere about religions, what they believe why and how, and I read religious books and books about religion, pros and cons, until I found out that the Bible was the one truth for me. It was not just replacing one conviction with another or being pressed into a religion. It was struggle - with the matter itself, and with what I believed to be true before. I myself converted because of my own will and my own efforts. If you had read my part of the thread, you could have read that I was treated as a traitor by my family after my baptism.

What are these unexplainable coincidences?

May i ask why you were searching for god?

That there are people who hide their particular interests behind the coat of religion, that's clear and unfortunately not changeable. I mentioned before that you can't mangle them all together.

Entire governments do it. Look at non secular governments for example.

If organised religions were dissolved, this problem would go away.

Why are you using logic on a religious site ?

---

Hardly, how can my statement even be remotely connected with this political ideal. Perhaps if viewed out of context.

This quote is taken out of a text about Socialism and Religion which explains Lenin's (and later the "official" Soviet) view on this topic. There may be parallels - even by coincident.

I suggested that organised religion (note the word organised) and believing in GOD per se has nothing to do with sound ethics. In fact some of the most ethical people i know are agnostics or atheists.

Sure. But the source of most ethic rules is based on the Ten Commandments Moses taught to his people several thousands of years ago, means they are based in religion - so the circle closes again.

I also mentioned that organised religion is used as a tool to suppress (and manipulate and……). Note that what individuals believe is safe enough (it’s between them and their God) and cannot be used to exert control, extract money or for example start wars. I would go so far as to say that organised religion is an outright threat to the continued existence and survival of humanity period.

"Has been used", and "can be used" rather are terms I would use, because to generalize this, means to lump all organized religions together, which is entirely wrong. "Organized religions" only are built upon the urge of people who believe the same way, to meet and teach each other. That this has led to some of the most cruel things in history can't be blamed on the organizing itself, but on the people who became the several leaders of those organizations. That it is working otherwise, you can see at least in some of those newer churches and some small religious groups. Nowadays it is said: a church is not just a building or an organization, it is meeting people believing in God the same way.

Ethical practices should be established, indecently of all organised religious beliefs. Should these be adopted they can be used in all walks of life (and science for instance). People are free to believe what ever they like

All organizations, parties and churches, have been and still are trying to establish ethical standards and practices... unfortunately they are slightly different: for some folks too out-of-date, for some folks to progressive; it takes the free decision and intelligence of each individual to meet within the extremes.

What are these unexplainable coincidences?

These were situations which could be explained either as PSI-phenomena by people believing in this, or as the influence of higher powers by folks who believe in that. I don't want to go deeper now, but it was enough stuff to doubt my own mental health. Luckily I had enough independent witnesses when I experienced this stuff - so at least that reason (any kind of mental illness) could be excluded.
So I searched for explanations how this stuff could happen, and found not even one in scientific sources. Either things like those were totally denied, or treated as imaginations of a stressed mind, or they wrote (in more tolerating books) that stuff like this is existing but not explainable yet.

May i ask why you were searching for god?

Sure. After I finally stopped my desperate struggle to find logical reasons, and leaned back, saying with Hamlet: "And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy", I simply experienced that opening my mind to accepting that things simply can't explained yet, opened my mind also to others.
And when the system I had believed in, eventually showed up (after being smashed when the Berlin Wall came down) to have been just an illusion only held up by fraud and corruption, I looked for other philosophies to find reason.
Well, religion is also a kind of philosophy - I read everything and spoke with a real lot of persons finding out what should be my way now.

Then, '91, I was hitch-hiking through the States, and 9 out of 10 people who gave me a ride told me about how their lifes had changed since they had accepted Jesus; and they were kind and hospitable and generous, and even prayed upon me etc. So - because I knew that Jesus indeed was a historic person - I got nosy about this guy and read every book where I could find information about Him. This of course led me automatically to the Bible. And then, after having read it (plus some critical books) within a couple months, I finally stumbled over one peculiar verse: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally..." (James 1:5)
Heck, I absolutely lacked wisdom! I didn't know anymore for sure where to go, and what to follow. That song "Where do I go" from the musical "Hair" desribed exactly my own situation!
So I struggled with my own self and finally went to where I knew to be alone, to ask God if He could help me out of this struggle...
Strangely this my first prayer finally worked otherwise then expected, and I found myself to have become a believer only a short time later... It took me almost two more years to find a church where I could feel home, which I felt to be closer to the truth which I knew from both, my rational knowledge before and the Bible. And in 1993 I finally was baptized.

That there are people who hide their particular interests behind the coat of religion, that's clear and unfortunately not changeable. I mentioned before that you can't mangle them all together.

Entire governments do it. Look at non secular governments for example.
If organised religions were dissolved, this problem would go away.

Only because even governments do it doesn't mean that it's right. History has shown that government often make even horrible mistakes. As mentioned above: it's not the thing of being organized, but who leads that organization. Even non-organized preachers can be either righteous or impostors. Would you want to dissolve your entire government if you saw they were making trouble, or would you just want the president and several persons in charge to be exchanged? That's similar in organizations - and even in churches, too. It's the people, not the organization itself, who give them the direction to go.

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Account frozen...

Sure. But the source of most ethic rules is based on the Ten Commandments Moses taught to his people several thousands of years ago, means they are based in religion - so the circle closes again.

Granted that some ethical standards originated in religious texts, however this does not mean they cannot be borrowed and adjusted, improved as required for modern society. The ten commandments are pretty much 'common sense' today, even if people dont abide by them, this is a problem of enforcement. However 2000 years ago, they probably weren't common sense or even common which is likely why they were created in the first place.

I also mentioned that organised religion is used as a tool to suppress (and manipulate and……). Note that what individuals believe is safe enough (it’s between them and their God) and cannot be used to exert control, extract money or for example start wars. I would go so far as to say that organised religion is an outright threat to the continued existence and survival of humanity period.

"Has been used", and "can be used" rather are terms I would use, because to generalize this, means to lump all organized religions together, which is entirely wrong. "Organized religions" only are built upon the urge of people who believe the same way, to meet and teach each other. That this has led to some of the most cruel things in history can't be blamed on the organizing itself, but on the people who became the several leaders of those organizations. That it is working otherwise, you can see at least in some of those newer churches and some small religious groups. Nowadays it is said: a church is not just a building or an organization, it is meeting people believing in God the same way.

You forgot to mention, that organised religion also seeks to conquer and convert entire populations... whilst spreading disease and killing thousands. Also how about starting wars, creating social tensions and discrimination (i could go on and on and on).

If some of the most cruel periods in history were because of a particular religion, why can't the entire religion be held accountable? You are suggesting that organised religion has no "group accountability", and this is exactly where the ethics in the bible stop and where mankind needs to start.

I don't think the bible suggests "how to run a religion" (this was left to man)Inside any organised religion there are politics, power and money (just like a corporation) and this is where its gets rather ugly and dangerous. This is what has led to past atrocities and will lead to future atrocities. This is why all organised religion should be disbanded.

If you want to meet with your friends to talk about religion, go to their house, or meet in the park. Don't build a church, collect money, appoint positions of power and a hierarchy. Churches are just like a corporations, especially when people start talking about church sites as branches (just like a bank!).

Which corporation owns more property than any other on the planet??

All organizations, parties and churches, have been and still are trying to establish ethical standards and practices... unfortunately they are slightly different: for some folks too out-of-date, for some folks to progressive; it takes the free decision and intelligence of each individual to meet within the extremes.

The fact remains, that organised religion is not required to form a framework of ethics for people to abide by.

May i ask why you were searching for god?

Sure. After I finally stopped my desperate struggle to find logical reasons, and leaned back, saying with Hamlet: "And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy", I simply experienced that opening my mind to accepting that things simply can't explained yet, opened my mind also to others.

Logical reasons for what? I don't understand. What actually motivated you to 'search for god' in the first place, why was there a need??

Entire governments do it. Look at non secular governments for example.
If organised religions were dissolved, this problem would go away.

Only because even governments do it doesn't mean that it's right. History has shown that government often make even horrible mistakes. As mentioned above: it's not the thing of being organized, but who leads that organization. Even non-organized preachers can be either righteous or impostors. Would you want to dissolve your entire government if you saw they were making trouble, or would you just want the president and several persons in charge to be exchanged? That's similar in organizations - and even in churches, too. It's the people, not the organization itself, who give them the direction to go.

It depends how long the trouble was brewing. If the government had a long history (say 100 years) of problems etc without much improvement certainly.... throw them out! Obviously they are worthless and have no idea what they are doing or are corrupt beyond repair. Let someone new have a go.

Unfortunately with organised religion this is not possibly why? Because they are not accountable to anyone except god!? Has the catholic church ever had an 'ethical audit'? or an audit of any kind?

Corporations and Governments are accountable and if they keep screwing up, they go bankrupt and disappear or are dissolved (revolution?).

Sure. But the source of most ethic rules is based on the Ten Commandments Moses taught to his people several thousands of years ago, means they are based in religion - so the circle closes again.

Granted that some ethical standards originated in religious texts, however this does not mean they cannot be borrowed and adjusted, improved as required for modern society. The ten commandments are pretty much 'common sense' today, even if people dont abide by them, this is a problem of enforcement. However 2000 years ago, they probably weren't common sense or even common which is likely why they were created in the first place.

Well, The teachings of Jesus are about 2000 years old. The Ten commandments are even 1200 years older - It is said by Historians that the exodus must have been about while Ramses II. was pharaoh over Egypt.

You forgot to mention, that organised religion also seeks to conquer and convert entire populations... whilst spreading disease and killing thousands. Also how about starting wars, creating social tensions and discrimination (i could go on and on and on).

In these cases it's not really religion but the interests of their leaders who want more (secular) power or want influence over treasures etc, and hide their interests behind the religion. Look at Ireland: There are fights going between those who want all Ireland to be independent, and those who want to keep Britain influnce in Northern Ireland - and because the first party is mainly catholic & the second one is mainly protestant, so in the media they say it were a fight between Catholics & Protestants. But if you look into politics & history you'll see that it's not a matter of their denomination but has political reasons - like each other "religious" fight.

If you want to meet with your friends to talk about religion, go to their house, or meet in the park. Don't build a church, collect money, appoint positions of power and a hierarchy. Churches are just like a corporations, especially when people start talking about church sites as branches (just like a bank!).

Okay - may be this was a wrong translation - but actually I know some churches calling their sites either wards or branches, depending on their size. And about the hierarchy: Even in the New Testament there was built a hierarchy of the new-found church: Jesus as the head, his 12 Apostles, the Seventies (Luk 10:1), the Bishops, Priests, and Diacons. And when you have enough members who like to meet, why should no houses be built to meet in them, and why should no money be collected to maintain these buildings and to support the poor ones among those members? I know of enough denominations where no function is paid, where all the money collected goes into support & charity, and into building, maintaining and restoring of their church sites.

May i ask why you were searching for god?

Sure. After I finally stopped my desperate struggle to find logical reasons, and leaned back, saying with Hamlet: "And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy", I simply experienced that opening my mind to accepting that things simply can't explained yet, opened my mind also to others.

Logical reasons for what? I don't understand.

I meant logical reasons for strange things I experienced. Like what may be called telepathy or visions or several situations when I changed my mind without reason and would have been injured if I hadn't or when I felt to be forced to do otherwise than I had planned and it came out to my advantage - all such logically unexplainable stuff which happened too frequent to be just by incident.

What actually motivated you to 'search for god' in the first place, why was there a need??

As I said, I mainly searched for another way to go, another idea to hold on when the ideology I had believed in before showed up to be false. Finding God was rather a side-product of my quest.

It depends how long the trouble was brewing. If the government had a long history (say 100 years) of problems etc without much improvement certainly.... throw them out! Obviously they are worthless and have no idea what they are doing or are corrupt beyond repair. Let someone new have a go
...
Corporations and Governments are accountable and if they keep screwing up, they go bankrupt and disappear or are dissolved (revolution?).

That's why the Berlin Wall came down, and I had to search something new to believe in, because I had believed that the system I lived in was the only right one ...

Unfortunately with organised religion this is not possibly why? Because they are not accountable to anyone except god!? Has the catholic church ever had an 'ethical audit'? or an audit of any kind?

Okay I don't want to depreciate the Catholic believers because I respect every faith (even the belief that there is no God at all). But - when I finally found the Bible to be true, I also discussed with catholic priests about it and their view on the matter - and couldn't agree with them. In the Bible I found nothing about Popes or paid theologists or monasteries or the adoration of several Saints... But what I found was that Jesus (who should be the foundation of each Christian church) always was agaist the establishment of the theologists (= scribes) and also stated that God should be the only person to be called "Holy Father". But this is my personal view - I might have misunderstood several phrases of the Bible.

If some of the most cruel periods in history were because of a particular religion, why can't the entire religion be held accountable? You are suggesting that organised religion has no "group accountability", and this is exactly where the ethics in the bible stop and where mankind needs to start.
I don't think the bible suggests "how to run a religion" (this was left to man) Inside any organised religion there are politics, power and money (just like a corporation) and this is where its gets rather ugly and dangerous. This is what has led to past atrocities and will lead to future atrocities. This is why all organised religion should be disbanded.

But to declare each religious organization as manipulating etc is a wrong generalization. That would be like knowing a handful of a certain foreigners to be thiefs and peculators, and declare all foreigners to be thiefs and peculators.
There is no need to lump all denominations together only because a handful of them made things which were (and are) definitely wrong. There are a lot of denominations which do (as organization) remain on the sidelines of politics but encourage their members (as single persons) to be involved in politics for their country as good as they can. So it may happen that there are members of the same church serving opposite parties in the town-hall etc.

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Account frozen...

Okay - Sarge, you've seen the problem. Now let's go back to topic if possible.

BTW: I only use one program - Ding, a Dictionary look-up - to look for words I don't know or I don't remember. For each other mistake made by me - like grammar etc. - I can be blamed myself.

You should include the post about the "Flat Earth" here as well.

I don't believe in a flat earth - though the flat world of Terry Pretchett is funny enough

Ummm ... aren't you the one that posted the links to the Wiki's that state the idea of people believing in a flat earth was largely a 19th century invention?

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Okay - Sarge, you've seen the problem. Now let's go back to topic if possible.

BTW: I only use one program - Ding, a Dictionary look-up - to look for words I don't know or I don't remember. For each other mistake made by me - like grammar etc. - I can be blamed myself.

You should include the post about the "Flat Earth" here as well.

I don't believe in a flat earth - though the flat world of Terry Pretchett is funny enough

Ummm ... aren't you the one that posted the links to the Wiki's that state the idea of people believing in a flat earth was largely a 19th century invention?

If I remember right - no, I'm not.

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Account frozen...

Ummm ... aren't you the one that posted the links to the Wiki's that state the idea of people believing in a flat earth was largely a 19th century invention?

If I remember right - no, I'm not.

Oops, sorry. It was posted by Akhenaton.

---

Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Sure. But the source of most ethic rules is based on the Ten Commandments Moses taught to his people several thousands of years ago, means they are based in religion - so the circle closes again.

Granted that some ethical standards originated in religious texts, however this does not mean they cannot be borrowed and adjusted, improved as required for modern society. The ten commandments are pretty much 'common sense' today, even if people dont abide by them, this is a problem of enforcement. However 2000 years ago, they probably weren't common sense or even common which is likely why they were created in the first place.

I also mentioned that organised religion is used as a tool to suppress (and manipulate and……). Note that what individuals believe is safe enough (it’s between them and their God) and cannot be used to exert control, extract money or for example start wars. I would go so far as to say that organised religion is an outright threat to the continued existence and survival of humanity period.

"Has been used", and "can be used" rather are terms I would use, because to generalize this, means to lump all organized religions together, which is entirely wrong. "Organized religions" only are built upon the urge of people who believe the same way, to meet and teach each other. That this has led to some of the most cruel things in history can't be blamed on the organizing itself, but on the people who became the several leaders of those organizations. That it is working otherwise, you can see at least in some of those newer churches and some small religious groups. Nowadays it is said: a church is not just a building or an organization, it is meeting people believing in God the same way.

You forgot to mention, that organised religion also seeks to conquer and convert entire populations... whilst spreading disease and killing thousands. Also how about starting wars, creating social tensions and discrimination (i could go on and on and on).

If some of the most cruel periods in history were because of a particular religion, why can't the entire religion be held accountable? You are suggesting that organised religion has no "group accountability", and this is exactly where the ethics in the bible stop and where mankind needs to start.

I don't think the bible suggests "how to run a religion" (this was left to man)Inside any organised religion there are politics, power and money (just like a corporation) and this is where its gets rather ugly and dangerous. This is what has led to past atrocities and will lead to future atrocities. This is why all organised religion should be disbanded.

If you want to meet with your friends to talk about religion, go to their house, or meet in the park. Don't build a church, collect money, appoint positions of power and a hierarchy. Churches are just like a corporations, especially when people start talking about church sites as branches (just like a bank!).

Which corporation owns more property than any other on the planet??

All organizations, parties and churches, have been and still are trying to establish ethical standards and practices... unfortunately they are slightly different: for some folks too out-of-date, for some folks to progressive; it takes the free decision and intelligence of each individual to meet within the extremes.

The fact remains, that organised religion is not required to form a framework of ethics for people to abide by.

May i ask why you were searching for god?

Sure. After I finally stopped my desperate struggle to find logical reasons, and leaned back, saying with Hamlet: "And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy", I simply experienced that opening my mind to accepting that things simply can't explained yet, opened my mind also to others.

Logical reasons for what? I don't understand. What actually motivated you to 'search for god' in the first place, why was there a need??

Entire governments do it. Look at non secular governments for example.
If organised religions were dissolved, this problem would go away.

Only because even governments do it doesn't mean that it's right. History has shown that government often make even horrible mistakes. As mentioned above: it's not the thing of being organized, but who leads that organization. Even non-organized preachers can be either righteous or impostors. Would you want to dissolve your entire government if you saw they were making trouble, or would you just want the president and several persons in charge to be exchanged? That's similar in organizations - and even in churches, too. It's the people, not the organization itself, who give them the direction to go.

It depends how long the trouble was brewing. If the government had a long history (say 100 years) of problems etc without much improvement certainly.... throw them out! Obviously they are worthless and have no idea what they are doing or are corrupt beyond repair. Let someone new have a go.

Unfortunately with organised religion this is not possibly why? Because they are not accountable to anyone except god!? Has the catholic church ever had an 'ethical audit'? or an audit of any kind?

Corporations and Governments are accountable and if they keep screwing up, they go bankrupt and disappear or are dissolved (revolution?).

Religion HAS to be organised ! How else can the weasles make money ? God doesn't require massive buildings, they do.

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Religion HAS to be organised ! How else can the weasles make money ? God doesn't require massive buildings, they do.

Short and to the point, i like it. Thanks.

Well, The teachings of Jesus are about 2000 years old. The Ten commandments are even 1200 years older - It is said by Historians that the exodus must have been about while Ramses II. was pharaoh over Egypt.

Recorded history may be only 5000 years, but civilisations dating back 10,000 years still practiced ethics. Just because some guy wrote it in a book doesn't give him exclusive rights. I would also argue that we need a little more than the 10 commandments to manage our lives and technology developments today....

In these cases it's not really religion but the interests of their leaders who want more (secular) power or want influence over treasures etc, and hide their interests behind the religion. Look at Ireland: There are fights going between those who want all Ireland to be independent, and those who want to keep Britain influnce in Northern Ireland - and because the first party is mainly catholic & the second one is mainly protestant, so in the media they say it were a fight between Catholics & Protestants. But if you look into politics & history you'll see that it's not a matter of their denomination but has political reasons - like each other "religious" fight.

Yes, this is called manipulation. If it wasn't organised they wouldn't be able to do it now would they. Organised religion produces extremes of herd mentality and 'crowd behavior' which is arguably humanity at its worst. Think how much more difficult it would be to create (yes create) problems that need fixing without organised religion. Sometimes the best way to get things you want is to create a problem that needs fixing.

Okay - may be this was a wrong translation - but actually I know some churches calling their sites either wards or branches, depending on their size. And about the hierarchy: Even in the New Testament there was built a hierarchy of the new-found church: Jesus as the head, his 12 Apostles, the Seventies (Luk 10:1), the Bishops, Priests, and Diacons. And when you have enough members who like to meet, why should no houses be built to meet in them, and why should no money be collected to maintain these buildings and to support the poor ones among those members? I know of enough denominations where no function is paid, where all the money collected goes into support & charity, and into building, maintaining and restoring of their church sites.

And how do you actually know? I am sure if you audited their books, there would be a rather large surplus. If this was not the case, the organisation (which is what it is, NOT a religion) would fail to prosper. Organised religion is packaging and sellng a product for profit. More progressive sects just make the package a little more flashy and attractive, easier to swallow if you will. At the end of the day its all about money and power and its been like this since roman empire fell.

May i ask why you were searching for god? Sure. After I finally stopped my desperate struggle to find logical reasons, and leaned back, saying with Hamlet: "And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy", I simply experienced that opening my mind to accepting that things simply can't explained yet, opened my mind also to others.

I meant logical reasons for strange things I experienced. Like what may be called telepathy or visions or several situations when I changed my mind without reason and would have been injured if I hadn't or when I felt to be forced to do otherwise than I had planned and it came out to my advantage - all such logically unexplainable stuff which happened too frequent to be just by incident.

Fair enough, but why believe a set of ancient books? Accepted that science cannot explain everything and probably never will.... things happen that we don't really understand and well maybe some entity out there beyond the cosmos allows this to happen and well that's about it.

Unfortunately with organised religion this is not possibly why? Because they are not accountable to anyone except god!? Has the catholic church ever had an 'ethical audit'? or an audit of any kind? Okay I don't want to depreciate the Catholic believers because I respect every faith (even the belief that there is no God at all). But - when I finally found the Bible to be true, I also discussed with catholic priests about it and their view on the matter - and couldn't agree with them. In the Bible I found nothing about Popes or paid theologists or monasteries or the adoration of several Saints... But what I found was that Jesus (who should be the foundation of each Christian church) always was agaist the establishment of the theologists (= scribes) and also stated that God should be the only person to be called "Holy Father". But this is my personal view - I might have misunderstood several phrases of the Bible.

This is not intended as a shot at catholics as it can be applied to any organised religion of any size. No where is it written make profits, control and manipulate the masses.... but this is required as function of any organisation if you wish to survive and prosper as an organisation.

But to declare each religious organization as manipulating etc is a wrong generalization. That would be like knowing a handful of a certain foreigners to be thiefs and peculators, and declare all foreigners to be thiefs and peculators. There is no need to lump all denominations together only because a handful of them made things which were (and are) definitely wrong. There are a lot of denominations which do (as organization) remain on the sidelines of politics but encourage their members (as single persons) to be involved in politics for their country as good as they can. So it may happen that there are members of the same church serving opposite parties in the town-hall etc.

Arguably its because of their size. The larger they get, the 'worse' they are, people with money and power want only one thing.... MORE money and MORE power. Churches are no different. This is a human condition.

The small denominations simply do not have the influence to make any kind of dent thats noticable publicly, but if they had the chance they would. Its unavoidable by the very nature and definition of an organisation. Based on this, i believe yes it is fair to 'lump them all together', eventually any one denomination that is structured, organised, politically and financially motivated (they all are indirectly as the need to be to survive, nuns, popes, preachers, priests, missionaries etc etc have to eat and live - call this the 'sales and marketing team') and so recruitment (conversion) = revenue to pay for this cycle of organising a religion.

Goodness, some denominations even quote numbers!! How many people follow OUR denomination/sect.