After lengthy negociations, the Human spacecraft is permitted to land upon the alien world. The craft is sealed within a heavily shielded and airtight chamber, despite Human protestations that the exterior of the craft is sterile. At a pre-determined moment, the hatchway slides open and a pair of Human figures emerge with their hands raised to demonstrate that they mean no harm.

The aliens have trained their most powerful weapons upon the Human ship. The Humans still aboard know that the technology of the ship can easily defend itself against the best explosive and chemical weapons ever devised on this planet, but the act of aiming at the Humans seems to make the aliens more willing to communicate.

On the planet, numerous nations gather their armies to ensure that no one of them gains an advantage via deals with the Humans. Most of the countries have moved their leaders to hardened bunkers beneath the ground.

The Human diplomat faces a periscope lens that penetrates the containment area and announces himself. "I am Ambassador Jonathan Smith. We of Earth come in peace. Frankly, we thought that we had problems, but you people really are a piece of work!"

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

Even if this is so, 30,000 years still seems like a fair while to develop civilisation and technology considering what has been achieved in the last 10,000 years.

Where to begin on this? Start 30,000 years ago, what percentage of any group's time was literally spent surviving? The answer is almost all of it, and as we progressed that drops to virtually nothing. Time is the predominate factor, you didn't have people with the "idle" time to push our technological limits. As the collective "idle" time increased, through social advances and fledgeling (by our standards) technology that freed more and more of us from hunting/gathering and later farming, yeah the technology starts to move quicker. I'm talking about the very start of artisan classes, people who survive through trading goods for food. While we don't often think in those terms, that would be most of us today.

In those terms, they were moving about as fast as we are today. Nothing has fundamentally changed, we've evolved better tools from the ones that came before. From the first man to pick up a rock and hurl it at a bird, to our current uses hurling satilites at other planets and moons.

Chuck- the best answer I can give is that it is highly dependant on the gene. Certain genes seem to hold up better than others in a case like we're talking about. There was a special about the "Elephant man" on recently, and one of the genes in question would have been difficult or even impossible to detect a mere 120 years later. It certainly is a valid question.

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Still looking for something profound or inspirational to place here.

Hate to say it but all you scientist were only partially correct.

We are descendants of Extraterrestrials and that is what flies UFOs.

I put a thread up of how to contact them but SETI removed it since they feel insulted by the fact their Government took them for a ride.

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Have a website Charles?

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Totally agree (with both of you).

I guess the point i am trying to make is that we could have already been a few rounds here on Earth. If this has happened on earth, it could have happen on other planets. How many civilisations have come and gone?

Or perhaps they passed through here 100,000 years ago and didn't find anything really interesting and just book-marked Earth as 'mostly harmless'.

Come to think of it, if you were a highly evolved life-form with inter-stella travel, would you really be interested in Earth? Chances are you have probably encountered primitive life forms in other places and are looking for the answers to more pressing questions.... this is assuming that other intelligent life-forms have the same basic motivations as humans.

Earthlings are really interested in anything from another planet because of our very curious nature, and the fact that we have only just managed to send a few probes around our solar system (among other reasons), mixed with our inherent fear of the unknown. I guess we are kind of lonely.

"On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everybody drops to Zero." -Fight Club.

[quote]
Where to begin on this? Start 30,000 years ago, what percentage of any group's time was literally spent surviving? The answer is almost all of it, and as we progressed that drops to virtually nothing. Time is the predominate factor, you didn't have people with the "idle" time to push our technological limits. As the collective "idle" time increased, through social advances and
............

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Belief gets in the way of learning

Totally agree (with both of you).

Darn you've got me figured out ;)

I guess the point i am trying to make is that we could have already been a few rounds here on Earth. If this has happened on earth, it could have happen on other planets. How many civilisations have come and gone?

I'm of the opinion that is almost certain that we have had many false starts and severe regressions. Look at a "minor" one, the Dark Ages, which was not a Euro-centric event (it is a regressively marked period world wide). Other examples, are more relegated to legend (like Atlantis), and yet more are places like Stonehenge, Ancient Egypt, or Easter Island. Questions of how and why still exist for the latter, and as I've stated before: I don't believe we can recognize other cultures technology as well as we smugly believe.

Or perhaps they passed through here 100,000 years ago and didn't find anything really interesting and just book-marked Earth as 'mostly harmless'.

Come to think of it, if you were a highly evolved life-form with inter-stella travel, would you really be interested in Earth? Chances are you have probably encountered primitive life forms in other places and are looking for the answers to more pressing questions.... this is assuming that other intelligent life-forms have the same basic motivations as humans.

Earthlings are really interested in anything from another planet because of our very curious nature, and the fact that we have only just managed to send a few probes around our solar system (among other reasons), mixed with our inherent fear of the unknown. I guess we are kind of lonely.

I'd like to think such a race would have/use some form of remote tracking. But you are correct to avoid anthropomorphic leaps, we already make too many of them.

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Still looking for something profound or inspirational to place here.

But there's no evidence whatsoever for any exceptionally advanced (i.e. beyond what was the 'norm' for the time in which it appears) civilization. All there could possibly be is the rumours of Atlantis, for which there is no real evidence. I put something like that up to distorted legend at best, utter fabrication at worst. Apply Occam's razor to everything.

If the remains of an advanced Atlantis were found, well that would be something wouldn't it! But it becomes less and less likely as time goes on...

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

Fun to look for!

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

There are so many poorly explained or unclear explanations of ancient civilisations and technologies dating back pre-biblical times that may become clearer in time.

Some Ancient Mysteries yet to be fully answered

AncientCivilisations

Ancient Nuclear Conflict? (i know it sounds mythical and extreme)

AncientNUKEWar

Some believe that the Pyramigs (Egypt) are more like 10,000 years old and there is still no explanation for how these were built (lost technologies/civilisation etc).

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Belief gets in the way of learning

There are so many poorly explained or unclear explanations of ancient civilisations and technologies dating back pre-biblical times that may become clearer in time.

Some Ancient Mysteries yet to be fully answered

AncientCivilisations

Ancient Nuclear Conflict? (i know it sounds mythical and extreme)

AncientNUKEWar

Some believe that the Pyramigs (Egypt) are more like 10,000 years old and there is still no explanation for how these were built (lost technologies/civilisation etc).

If a UFO went over USA do you think they would NOT shoot it down?
If you look at Egyptian history,
Mainly Osiris & Isis,
You find they taught farming and knowledge.
As if they came from some wear?
It has been proven that the ice age repeats. lots!
Oil & coal is at an end Very soon.
And if a ice age started it would wipe out 95%+
Of mankind. It is far easer than you think.
Look what happens in USA when they have a black out.
They go to barbarities, looting and killing,
Oh! They do that any way?
We are all totally relaying on TEC.
Even 3rd worlds rely on us,
So now they need us too much.
Farming would NOT last with out TEC.
A small example is Egypt,
Loot at the country Now, and remember what it was?
We are domed to make the some mistakes.
We are greedy & corrupt.
If I was a intelligent race,
I would not go any wear near the Phoenix's.
Until they stopped killing them selves!

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But there's no evidence whatsoever for any exceptionally advanced (i.e. beyond what was the 'norm' for the time in which it appears) civilization. All there could possibly be is the rumours of Atlantis, for which there is no real evidence. I put something like that up to distorted legend at best, utter fabrication at worst. Apply Occam's razor to everything.

If the remains of an advanced Atlantis were found, well that would be something wouldn't it! But it becomes less and less likely as time goes on...

I figured either you or penny would question my assertion. You both seem to have a very black/white view of the world.

Let's stick with Egypt. Care to explain how they reached the level of precision displayed by the pyramids? Be that the leveling of the site, or the tolerances between the blocks.

Unlike debates about how they moved the blocks, which is possible given enough people, there is no easy answer to how they worked that precisely. It's simply beyond the margin of error for any tool or form of measurement we "allow" them to have (to keep with contemporary standards of the time). It doesn't matter how attentive and carefully you work, every tool has a limit. That's not something that allowing enough time or throwing more people at can overcome.

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Still looking for something profound or inspirational to place here.

Yes there is an easy answer. They had alot more time and manpower on their hands than we realize. Egypt was a rich country for its time. Filthy rich. It was so rich in slaves that they had to periodically cull the males.

How hard is it for a skilled architect to make exact angles? How hard is it to whip the slaves to put the stones in exact positions? How difficult is it to have skilled chemists to experiment with different compunds until a satisfactory one is found? What else did they have in life? Movies? TV? Radio?


Really guys. The problem with this stuff is that it underestimates human ingenuity to a severe degree. I proved this myslef after having watched a documentary on Egypt age tools and methods, and applied them to moving one hell of a big stone (>500lbs, 4 men, wood plane and rope) from way down the beach up to above the breakwall (18 feet)at my parent's place in Boston. It worked, ridiculously easily. And that was for non-specialized space-age workers (my 2 brothers, my father and I)who'd never ever attempted such a feat before.

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

How hard is it for a skilled architect to make exact angles? How hard is it to whip the slaves to put the stones in exact positions? How difficult is it to have skilled chemists to experiment with different compunds until a satisfactory one is found? What else did they have in life? Movies? TV? Radio?

The proportion of slaves in the workforce that built the great monuments of Egypt is often exaggerated. A great many were skilled, well-paid craftsmen who would have taken pride in the accuracy of their stone-dressing without any need for whipping. Participation in these 'public works' was likely regarded as a civic & religious duty as well as a means of employment. Architects had very high status; for an extreme example Imhotep, designer of the earliest pyramid at Saqqara, was eventually deified.

Really guys. The problem with this stuff is that it underestimates human ingenuity to a severe degree. ....

I couldn't agree more. Note also that our brains are no bigger or better than our ancestors', going back far into prehistory.

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Let's stick with Egypt. Care to explain how they reached the level of precision displayed by the pyramids? Be that the leveling of the site, or the tolerances between the blocks.

Careful planning, quite adequate geometrical knowledge and surveying technique, practically unlimited budget, fine craftsmanship.

Contrary to the pyramid-numerology literature that cites dimensions with many significant figures, we aren't in any position to say much about the precision to which the pyramids were built, at least in terms of the overall shape and proportions: most of the high-quality, carefully finished stone that covered their surfaces has been removed and 'recycled', creating an uncertainty somewhere on the order of one percent. Claims of millimetric precision clearly can have no basis. OTOH if a fairly recent archeo-astronomical theory is correct, the alignment of the passage on the north side of the Great Pyramid allows its construction to be dated to within a few decades.

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[quote]Let's stick with Egypt. Care to explain how they reached the level of precision displayed by the pyramids? Be that the leveling of the site, or the tolerances between the blocks.

..............

Take a look at

TheGreatPyramid

(i have chopped a few bits out below)

[Precision of Design and Build]
The sides of the pyramid are lined up almost exactly with the cardinal points of the compass. The accuracy of this alignment is extraordinary, with an average discrepancy of only about three minutes of arc in any direction or a variation of less than 0.06 percent.

The foundation of the Great Pyramid is amazingly level., No corner of its base is more than one-half inch higher or lower than the others. Considering that the pyramid's base covers more than thirteen acres, this near-perfect leveling far exceeds even the finest architectural standards of the present day.

[Knowledge of Geometry and Astronomy]
The basic dimensions of the Great Pyramid incorporate measurements from which the earth's size and shape can be calculated.These measurements show that the builders knew the exact dimensions of the planet as precisely as they have been recently determined by satellite surveys.

Measurements throughout the pyramid show that its constructors knew of the proportions of pi (3.14...), phi or the Golden Mean (1.618), and the "Pythagorean" triangles thousands of years before Pythagoras, the so-called father of geometry, lived.

Measurements show that the builders knew the precise spherical shape and size of the earth and had accurately charted such complex astronomical events as the precession of the equinoxes and the lunar standstill dates. The minute discrepancies of the lengths of the base of the pyramid (several inches over the 230 meter length of its base) reveal not an error on the part of the builders but an ingenious means of incorporating into the pyramid the "discrepancies" of the earth itself, in this case the flattening of the earth's globe at the poles.

Shafts leading upward from the two main chambers, previously thought to be air shafts for ventilation, have been shown to have another possible purpose. A miniature electronic robot mechanically crawled sixty-five meters up the shafts and its findings suggested that the south and north shafts in the Kings Chamber are pointed to Al Nitak (Zeta Orionis) and Alpha Draconis respectively, while the south and north shafts of the Queens Chamber point to Sirius and Orion. The scientists conducting this research believe that the layout of the three pyramids on the Giza plateau precisely mirror the position of the three main stars in the Orion constellation.

-----------------------------
Without looking at the mathematics, for which egyptian culture didnt know about pie or have advanced geometry. The surveying tools and technology available (thoedolites?) at that time, rather limited?

We are talking about 2.5 million stones weighting an average of 2.6 metric tonnes (on average) each. I don't think we can easily dismiss the required human resource and logistic issues with the build of this mega-structure given the ability to produce food, medicine etc and the overall population of the region at this time in history.

The time accuracy of the cut stone alone would be astounding. If they cut an average of 100 stones / day it would take 68 years to to produce the estimated 2.5 million units.

Precision of cutting has also been indicated by the interior stones to 1/100 th of an inch and 1/100th of 'true square' (these being 16 tonne blocks).

Perhaps a conscription based build methodology would work running over several generations?!

For the sceptics

SCEPTICS (skip to the section on 'the great pyramid')

But even the sketics seem hazy in a number of areas.

Oh and it may be worth mentioning that no mummies, sarcophagus or inscriptions of kings names have been found within the Great Pyramid. It doesnt appear to be a burial chamber.

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Belief gets in the way of learning

Right - I haven't got exact figures for you referenced either. So I guess debating whether or not humans could have pulled it off is pointless...without figures.

I suppose I shall look for them when I have some free time.

But let's just remember what Jeffrey was saying about 'how did they know in the past?!?'

Nothing in the pyramids construction and design was absolutely impossible for man to have made - and this is where you may be going wrong.

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

Right - I haven't got exact figures for you referenced either. So I guess debating whether or not humans could have pulled it off is pointless...without figures.

I suppose I shall look for them when I have some free time.

But let's just remember what Jeffrey was saying about 'how did they know in the past?!?'

Nothing in the pyramids construction and design was absolutely impossible for man to have made - and this is where you may be going wrong.

Cmon Chucky, put some weight into your argument, a bit of back-bone!

I think 5 million tons of rock planted 6,000 - 10,000 years ago by a people who's idea of horsepower was actually a donkey on steroids (or should i say donkeypower?) is a bit more physical evidence than the Koran or Bible ever delivered!! I'm not touting about clouds piling on top of one another franslates to precipitation or the theory of the water cycle!!)

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Belief gets in the way of learning

No but since the bricks were made as a mix of straw mud and water, and possibly some other chemicals, it is possible that the components were poured into moulds on the spot. Alot of debate on what is possible and impossible is only going to go around and around - it is true that the figures you provide about the pyramids are very impressive. However, they are not impossible for humans to achieve. A pyramid on the moon for example, would be alot more towards impossible, wouldn't it? A dusty old computer terminal built into the very structure of the pyramid would tend to give us clues of something beyond the Egyptian's abilities.
But I say that, with what there is, you are probably vastly underestimating human ingenuity and drive. Don't forget that they were an entirely different civilization from us, with different values and different work ethics.

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.

There is nothing amazing about the alignment of the sides of the pyramids. The solar cycles were very important to the Egyptians, and their own records indicate that one of the priestly duties was to observe the seasons and tell everyone when to plant. The Egyptians (and other ancient cultures) had become very careful observers of the position of the sun.

Getting a large area absoloutely level is not beyond current architects. They just don't usually bother with that kind of accuracy as it is expensive. Think about the tallest buildings, and the fact that they have to be absoloutely vertical in order not to fall down. Precision is possible, just expensive. I know how I would get a large area level today with fairly primitive tools. I am certain that the Egyptians had an equally elegant solution.

A water level has a bucket at one end, a clear pipe held vertically at the other end by some kind of stand, and a hose in the middle. Place the bucket in a location, and leave it there. The level of the water in the clear pipe will remain constant. So, make a mark on the pipe. Place its stand on the ground. If the level of the water in the pipe is lower than the mark, remove some soil. If the level of the water in the pipe is higher than the mark, add some soil. With this contraption and enough labor, it is possible to get any area level to an accuracy of better than an eighth of an inch (about 3 mm). The only part of this technology that would be a problem for the egyptians would be the hose. Rubber was not yet discovered.

Egypt was not the only ancient culture that built with great apparent accuracy in their stone work. The first is that they used fairly soft rock for building the pyramids - this makes carving the rocks to fit much easier, and sliding the stones across each other would improve the fit by removing irregularities.

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BOINC WIKI

Thanx for the info I was too apathetic to hunt down. We forget that ancient civilizations had far more time on their hands and far less distractions than we do.

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Never Forget a Friend. Or an Enemy.