In response to Octagons post

I can just see the environmentalists now, saying that we can't farm and colonize extrasolar worlds because the glowing five-legged cockroaches might eventually evolve into something deserving of human rights, and therefore it would be wrong to just 'take' the land from them...

We don't know how common life is in the Universe, and if some civilization is sending a beacon, then it would be rude to ignore it :-)

By sending out space probes, satellites, radio transmissions, etc, in fact by simply existing we are already "polluting" the rest of the universe.

If humans develop technologically into the future and spread out into space we will both accidentally and deliberately pollute ever greater parts of the universe that we come across and perhaps drive to extinction or destroy other life forms (bacteria, five-legged cockroaches, etc) to make these other environments more amenable for us.

For us to exist in environments not naturally suitable for us we will have to change those environments (at least those parts immediately surrounding us, eg space suits at one extreme to terraforming at the other).

The history of human expansion on Earth has been one of a more powerful Technological society wiping out (to a lesser or greater degree) a less powerful one.

Is this something we can expect as we travel beyond Earth?

If so, should we stop space research and stop SETI and limit ourselves to this globe alone?

Could we become an Outside Context Problem, or be subject to our own OCP, with potentially devastating consequences?

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Join TeamACC

Sometimes I think we are alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we are not. In either case the idea is quite staggering.

In response to Octagons post

I can just see the environmentalists now, saying that we can't farm and colonize extrasolar worlds because the glowing five-legged cockroaches might eventually evolve into something deserving of human rights, and therefore it would be wrong to just 'take' the land from them...

We don't know how common life is in the Universe, and if some civilization is sending a beacon, then it would be rude to ignore it :-)

By sending out space probes, satellites, radio transmissions, etc, in fact by simply existing we are already "polluting" the rest of the universe.

If humans develop technologically into the future and spread out into space we will both accidentally and deliberately pollute ever greater parts of the universe that we come across and perhaps drive to extinction or destroy other life forms (bacteria, five-legged cockroaches, etc) to make these other environments more amenable for us.

For us to exist in environments not naturally suitable for us we will have to change those environments (at least those parts immediately surrounding us, eg space suits at one extreme to terraforming at the other).

The history of human expansion on Earth has been one of a more powerful Technological society wiping out (to a lesser or greater degree) a less powerful one.

Is this something we can expect as we travel beyond Earth?

If so, should we stop space research and stop SETI and limit ourselves to this globe alone?

Could we become an Outside Context Problem, or be subject to our own OCP, with potentially devastating consequences?

Wow! Nice thread!

We've possibly began to pollute other planets already. Do you think we may have contaminated Mars or the moon with bacteria? And what if we do find other life? We could wipe it out with our own virus' without meaning to.

Look what happened to America when the Europeans invaded. If we haven't learnt from the mistakes made then, it's entirely likely that if we ever find intelligent life elsewhere we will commit genocide again.

As for the poor environmentalists, I always thought they were all for keeping this planet suitable for human life.

But then again, it's natural for species to try and spread and colonise. If we are the more successful species then what does it matter if we wipe out a few other life forms to improve out own chances of survival? It's not like on this planet where we have evolved to fit in with the other life on the planet and therefore are dependent on it.

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Reality Internet Personality

Wow! Nice thread!

We've possibly began to pollute other planets already. Do you think we may have contaminated Mars or the moon with bacteria? And what if we do find other life? We could wipe it out with our own virus' without meaning to.

Look what happened to America when the Europeans invaded. If we haven't learnt from the mistakes made then, it's entirely likely that if we ever find intelligent life elsewhere we will commit genocide again.

As for the poor environmentalists, I always thought they were all for keeping this planet suitable for human life.

But then again, it's natural for species to try and spread and colonise. If we are the more successful species then what does it matter if we wipe out a few other life forms to improve out own chances of survival? It's not like on this planet where we have evolved to fit in with the other life on the planet and therefore are dependent on it.

Thanks Es99.

Simply being in existence "pollutes", or to put it another way: impinges on others.

It is, as you say, natural for species (as we might know them) to try and spread and colonise. The point of life (if there is such a thing) is to continue to exist, making multiple copies and spreading out is a good safety mechanism against extinction.

Given this, we should wholeheartedly embrace colonisation of space. Where possible we should not destroy other life forms (from bacteria upwards), but we may have to if it threatens our expansion.


And now for a hopefully not too hypothetical scenario:

Humans get to Mars and Venus and establish permanent self-sustaining habitats or colonies. Indigenous bacterial life, simple plants and animals are discovered. Humans want to open up the whole of the planet for colonisation, agriculture, mining, etc. They start to have a debate about Terraforming.

In this debate I would argue in favour of proceeding with terraforming, full speed ahead, for the reasons given above. But at the same time create zoos or reservations for the indigenous life so that they don't die out. Also taking into account that we may well drive to extinction creatures that we haven't yet discovered.

Does this sound sensible?

Or is it a step too far?

Are there any other alternatives?

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Join TeamACC

Sometimes I think we are alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we are not. In either case the idea is quite staggering.

Does this sound sensible?

I think it is more sensible to colonize Mars rather than Venus. At present we don't even have a space suit to withstand the environment of Venus. Mars would be easier and more cost efficient.
I think that it is essential that we get off this planet eventually. Our planet will not be hospitable forever. whether it is by our own hands our the sun expanding prior to supernova. In witch case the chromosphere will literally be on our front porch and of course we will be Bar-B-Que.
If we have to step on a few five legged cochroaches in the proccess then I think it will be a major conscenses then to support it if it isn't too late.

Or is it a step too far?

I don't think it is going to far. on the contrary I think wee aren't doing enough in this field.

Are there any other alternatives?

We always have alternatives. we are life. and we will always try to survive even if it means takeing out another species. As they said in Jurrasic Park. "life will find a way"
I also believe that in certain death we as humans will sacrofice our own to continue the survival of our own species( the rich people of course will get to live).

We've possibly began to pollute other planets already. Do you think we may have contaminated Mars or the moon with bacteria? And what if we do find other life? We could wipe it out with our own virus' without meaning to.

The probes that we have sent to Mars were sterilized because of this concern. As one article I read explained it: It would very disappointing for a probe to detect life on Mars, generate lots of celebration, then later have it determined that it was bacterial contamination from California.

On the larger issue of impacting alien habitats, the idea of preserves/conservatories/zoos is the only practical solution short of establishing all colonies of lifeless rocks like the Moon.

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No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.

98% of all the species that ever existed on this planet are extinct. That's evolution for you, with the help of an asteroid or so. Should we recklessly disregard other life? No, we should take reasonable precautions to preserve what we can but if we stop expanding and adapting WE will become extinct. We deserve to live just as much as any other life and more than some. Do we really need flies?? I think not!

On the other hand our biggest problem is overpopulation. Humans are suffering as well as non humans. We should encourage "one woman, two babies" as much as we can. Encourage, not force.

Well, enough rambling,

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David Stites
Pullman, WA USA

98% of all the species that ever existed on this planet are extinct. That's evolution for you, with the help of an asteroid or so. Should we recklessly disregard other life? No, we should take reasonable precautions to preserve what we can but if we stop expanding and adapting WE will become extinct. We deserve to live just as much as any other life and more than some. Do we really need flies?? I think not!

Yeah, David, we really do need flies. :-)

"If all mankind were to disappear, the world would regenerate back to the rich state of equilibrium that existed ten thousand years ago. If insects were to vanish, the environment would collapse into chaos."
Edward O. Wilson

On the other hand our biggest problem is overpopulation. Humans are suffering as well as non humans. We should encourage "one woman, two babies" as much as we can. Encourage, not force.

Well, enough rambling,

Our biggest problem is distribution of resources. There is enough to go around. We have massive wastage in the West while people starve in the developing countries.

However, contraception is always a good idea. Women are more than baby factories. Condoms would also help stop the AIDS pandemic.

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Reality Internet Personality