Another example of USA Gun Laws (or lack of...)?

Message boards : Politics : Another example of USA Gun Laws (or lack of...)?
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 . . . 144 · 145 · 146 · 147 · 148 · 149 · 150 . . . 234 · Next

AuthorMessage
moomin
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 21 Oct 17
Posts: 6204
Credit: 38,420
RAC: 0
Sweden
Message 2006087 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 1:29:21 UTC - in response to Message 2006078.  
Last modified: 7 Aug 2019, 1:38:29 UTC

Constitutions are not written in stone:)

btw. We all know where Trump and his friends belong.
But where do you fit in?
ID: 2006087 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19072
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2006095 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 2:24:45 UTC - in response to Message 2006054.  



It ' means ' what is written and it doesn't ' mean ' what is not written.
Easy.


I eagerly await your response to the following...

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

How's this work for you. Remembering we have 50 states.
A "well regulated militia", back when, our constitution was written meant every able bodied and armed man who was not in the Army whose help could be requested in a time of danger.

When the constitution was written the US did not have an Army. That is why the second was written, allowing men to be armed so that they could form Militia to defend the States from those barbarian Brits in the north.
ID: 2006095 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile JaundicedEye
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 14 Mar 12
Posts: 5375
Credit: 30,870,693
RAC: 1
United States
Message 2006097 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 2:48:25 UTC

Constitutions are not written in stone:)

Oh, contraire mon frere, if they're more than just lip service, they ARE/MUST be written in stone. And that stone is the solid foundation the entire concept of the United States of America is built upon, and is why it is so regularly attacked by those who wish to change the US into something not at all intended by it's authors.

As our greatly missed comrade Major Kong, used to do, I've started reading the Federalist Papers again, if you want insight into the concepts behind the US Constitution and the first 10 Amendments contained in the Bill of Rights, that's the penultimate authority.

@ Clyde, I find the writings of Justice Scalia in DC vs Heller to be very enlightened especially when 2nd Amendment detractors try to employ the 'applies to muskets not ARs' argument specifically.........
"'The Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning. United States v. Sprague, 282 U.S. 716, 731 (1931); see also Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 188 (1824). Normal meaning may of course include an idiomatic meaning, but it excludes secret or technical meanings ... ."


"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
ID: 2006097 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19072
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2006109 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 5:40:45 UTC - in response to Message 2006097.  

They definitely should not be written in stone.

Ask yourself, "would the Founders have written the 2nd as it is, if they had known one person with one firearm could kill nine and injure 27 other innocent people in less than 30 seconds"?

The technology in 1789 would have restricted the shooter to one inaccurate shot in the same time frame.
ID: 2006109 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30669
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2006110 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 5:43:51 UTC - in response to Message 2006095.  
Last modified: 7 Aug 2019, 5:44:39 UTC



It ' means ' what is written and it doesn't ' mean ' what is not written.
Easy.


I eagerly await your response to the following...

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

How's this work for you. Remembering we have 50 states.
A "well regulated militia", back when, our constitution was written meant every able bodied and armed man who was not in the Army whose help could be requested in a time of danger.

When the constitution was written the US did not have an Army. That is why the second was written, allowing men to be armed so that they could form Militia to defend the States from those barbarian Brits in the north.

Back when it was written the states did regulate their militia's. Undesirables were banned. Today the states don't regulate a militia, so in the 50 that don't regulate, there should not be a right to have Arms. That leaves trusts, territories and possessions.
ID: 2006110 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Stargate (SA)
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 4 Mar 10
Posts: 1854
Credit: 2,258,721
RAC: 0
Australia
Message 2006111 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 6:00:32 UTC - in response to Message 2006109.  

+1
ID: 2006111 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile JaundicedEye
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 14 Mar 12
Posts: 5375
Credit: 30,870,693
RAC: 1
United States
Message 2006138 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 12:38:25 UTC

@Nick.........

Again, Justice Scalia...........
when 2nd Amendment detractors try to employ the 'applies to muskets not ARs' argument specifically.........

"'The Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning. United States v. Sprague, 282 U.S. 716, 731 (1931); see also Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 188 (1824). Normal meaning may of course include an idiomatic meaning, but it excludes secret or technical meanings ... ."


'Shall not be infringed' .....normal and ordinary, not secret or technical. No 'except for ' or 'limited to '. There is an Amendment process, if the MAJORITY of The People feel there is a need to change or clarify the Constitution or it's Amendments the process is available for them to do so. Unless that happens......what you read is what you've got.

Same as the results of the 2016 election.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
ID: 2006138 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19072
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2006155 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 14:27:27 UTC - in response to Message 2006138.  

@Nick.........

Again, Justice Scalia...........
when 2nd Amendment detractors try to employ the 'applies to muskets not ARs' argument specifically.........

"'The Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning. United States v. Sprague, 282 U.S. 716, 731 (1931); see also Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 188 (1824). Normal meaning may of course include an idiomatic meaning, but it excludes secret or technical meanings ... ."


'Shall not be infringed' .....normal and ordinary, not secret or technical. No 'except for ' or 'limited to '. There is an Amendment process, if the MAJORITY of The People feel there is a need to change or clarify the Constitution or it's Amendments the process is available for them to do so. Unless that happens......what you read is what you've got.

Same as the results of the 2016 election.


That is not an answer to the question I asked. I didn't ask about SCOTUS I asked about the Founders. And I firmly believe the Founders would not have wished the Constitution to be written in stone and that it would be updated to reflect current technology.

Plus you do have an Army these day's there is no need for the malita or the general population to carry firearms to defend the US.
ID: 2006155 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19072
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2006161 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 14:59:35 UTC - in response to Message 2006159.  

Unfortunately and I really mean unfortunately. What SCOTUS believes in this case is the Law of the Land.

I couldn't agree more, and with the way things have been going since the GOP blocked Obama's last nominee it is only going to get worse.
ID: 2006161 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile JaundicedEye
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 14 Mar 12
Posts: 5375
Credit: 30,870,693
RAC: 1
United States
Message 2006168 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 15:28:02 UTC

I didn't ask about SCOTUS I asked about the Founders. And I firmly believe the Founders would not have wished the Constitution to be written in stone and that it would be updated to reflect current technology.

Unfortunately and I do mean unfortunately neither you, I or anyone can actually question those founding fathers. We can only read their words. When there is need of clarification or a disagreement as to their 'meaning ', SCOTUS is the body of government created and empowered to do so. Their decision is law, like it or not. Again if you want a clearer insight into the minds of the framers of the Constitution you really should read the Federalist Papers, specifically #46 on the 2nd Amendment.

Plus you do have an Army these day's there is no need for the milita or the general population to carry firearms to defend the US.
And that Army, under control of the Federal Government is a major reason there is a 2nd Amendment. The Founders did not want The People to be helpless when another King George comes along and decides everything belongs to him and his(i.e. Socialism) in fact despite it's being touted as 'ownership by the citizens'. Ask the citizens of Venezuela, DPRK, Cuba, Iran, China and every other such system what recourse they have if the system oppresses them.

The 'Government ' should fear an armed populace not the reverse. And there is no reason for them to fear free gun owners unless they suck at 'governing'.

This thought is born out by various quotes from Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and James Madison(author of the Federalist Papers)
“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined…” – George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” – Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” – Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

“A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

“On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

“I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence … I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778


@ Account.......your John Stewart meme states rather clearly the reason I ignore the less than honest radical left, or 'Dims'.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
ID: 2006168 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30669
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2006171 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 15:44:53 UTC - in response to Message 2006168.  

Again if you want a clearer insight into the minds of the framers of the Constitution you really should read the Federalist Papers, specifically #46 on the 2nd Amendment.
Funny, I thought that was the writing of a single one of the founders, James Madison.
The Founders did not want
You conducted a séance?
ID: 2006171 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24879
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 2006183 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 16:33:12 UTC - in response to Message 2006168.  

“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined…” – George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790
The man was right. However as we consistently see, the problem is the undisciplined not giving a damn for anyone but themselves.
ID: 2006183 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30669
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2006223 - Posted: 7 Aug 2019, 22:55:45 UTC - in response to Message 2006185.  

Again if you want a clearer insight into the minds of the framers of the Constitution you really should read the Federalist Papers, specifically #46 on the 2nd Amendment.
Funny, I thought that was the writing of a single one of the founders, James Madison.
The Founders did not want
You conducted a séance?

Gary ,
Serious question on my part . . . please no Sarcasm on your part . . . your trade mark :)

to all other posters: please: No messages intended to mean, annoy, antagonize, insult, hostile, threatening, or insulting to me or others.

Gary, I know it' very difficult 2/3 and 2/3 ect, ect ….. . your opinion . . . why are people so against repealing the second amendment?

Byron: I don't think there is any single answer. Too many people, too many different reasons.

If you are asking about those "in power" they may like it because it is ambiguous and therefore they can use it as a rallying cry for "their side."

Perhaps it is just nostalgia. Too many "Westerns" and wanting "the simple life" where morals were black and white [no pun intended]
ID: 2006223 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
moomin
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 21 Oct 17
Posts: 6204
Credit: 38,420
RAC: 0
Sweden
Message 2006335 - Posted: 8 Aug 2019, 15:35:42 UTC
Last modified: 8 Aug 2019, 15:38:39 UTC

Sigh... This is ridiculous.
Amnesty USA warns of travel to the country because of recent mass shootings.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-releases/global-human-rights-movement-issues-travel-warning-for-the-u-s-due-to-rampant-gun-violence/
Amnesty International today issued a travel warning calling for possible travelers and visitors to the United States to exercise extreme caution when traveling throughout the country due to rampant gun violence, which has become so prevalent in the United States that it amounts to a human rights crisis.
The risk that a tourist die in a traffic accident in the US is by far more likely!
Traffic Deaths in U.S. Exceed 40,000 for Third Straight Year.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-13/traffic-deaths-in-u-s-exceed-40-000-for-third-straight-year
ID: 2006335 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30669
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2006356 - Posted: 8 Aug 2019, 18:40:48 UTC - in response to Message 2006335.  

Sigh... This is ridiculous.

Yes
ID: 2006356 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile j mercer
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 3 Jun 99
Posts: 2422
Credit: 12,323,733
RAC: 1
United States
Message 2006381 - Posted: 8 Aug 2019, 21:53:39 UTC - in response to Message 2006356.  

Sigh... This is ridiculous.

Yes

and this is counter to the 146 pages here. ROTFLMAO!!!!!
...
ID: 2006381 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile JaundicedEye
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 14 Mar 12
Posts: 5375
Credit: 30,870,693
RAC: 1
United States
Message 2006473 - Posted: 9 Aug 2019, 13:13:24 UTC - in response to Message 2006308.  

Two very interesting articles:


And...

    President Donald Trump has repeatedly told lawmakers and aides in private conversations that he is open to endorsing extensive background checks in the wake of two mass shootings, prompting a warning from the National Rifle Association and concerns among White

    NRA chief executive Wayne LaPierre spoke with Trump on Tuesday after the president expressed support for a background check bill and told him it would not be popular among Trump's supporters, according to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to freely discuss internal talks. LaPierre also argued against the bill's merits, the officials said.

    https://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/Trump-warned-by-NRA-over-background-checks-14288843.php


I agree with both Sanders and Trump.

However, the 99.9% of noncriminal gun owners will not accept extensive new gun laws.

Yes they, as Sanders says, "should". But they will not.


@Clyde

I think you are prejudging the vast majority of noncriminal gun owners.

I, for one, support in depth background checks. I also reject so called 'Constitutional Carry ' laws as this allows anyone to possess and carry firearms without question.

I have previously stated in this forum my support for such checks coinciding with the issuance of a National CCW license and purchase I.D. valid in all States with required renewal application every five years. This would go a long way to satisfying the 'well regulated ' argument so frequently touted.

There is no way this would be passed though due to lack of recurring revenue for the government generated by repetitive checks that serve no purpose.

There are many millions of legal gun owners who are NRA members that do not fully support all of that groups positions. But as the NRA is the ONLY voice available nationally to speak and act in their behalf they have no other venue or group to represent their views.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
ID: 2006473 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24879
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 2006497 - Posted: 9 Aug 2019, 15:57:38 UTC - in response to Message 2006486.  

When I said "gun owners will not accept extensive new gun laws". I was referring to the Left Wing Democrat's real attempt to to destroy an Individual Right that is in our Constitution.
When the Constitution was written, there were 13 states with a population of 4 million, therefore it was fit for purpose. The weaponry in use were flintlock pistols & muskets, with the musket being used by a "skilled" person, an effective rate of 3 rounds a minute could be achieved.

232 years on, there are 50 states with a population of 327 million with a range of weaponry capable of 600 rounds a minute (which the writers of the Constitution would have considered sheer fantasy, even in their wildest dreams), available to all as laid down by that ancient piece of parchment.

Therefore, it is no longer fit for purpose.
ID: 2006497 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24879
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 2006500 - Posted: 9 Aug 2019, 16:13:24 UTC

For US gun rights advocates, time is an ally. After every new mass-shooting, politicians on the left call for action. Polls show continued public support new gun regulations, including comprehensive background checks on firearm purchases.
The media focus on the victims and note how the US is one of the few nations with such an epidemic of violence. And then, at least when it comes to federal legislation - nothing. Time passes, attention shifts elsewhere, and inertia takes over.
"Serious" talks under way - how long for this time?
ID: 2006500 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile JaundicedEye
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 14 Mar 12
Posts: 5375
Credit: 30,870,693
RAC: 1
United States
Message 2006507 - Posted: 9 Aug 2019, 18:11:11 UTC

Therefore, it is no longer fit for purpose.
....disagree.

It fits the purpose of giving pause to criminal minds and would be tyrants alike, that they are not dealing with placid sheep.

“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” – Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

“On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823.


"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
ID: 2006507 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Previous · 1 . . . 144 · 145 · 146 · 147 · 148 · 149 · 150 . . . 234 · Next

Message boards : Politics : Another example of USA Gun Laws (or lack of...)?


 
©2024 University of California
 
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.