What can anyone do to stop Russia's future 'Dominance' over The Baltic States? Who is really willing to die to save Estonia?

Probably the best we can do is 'Draw a Line', as History Instructs us; and hope Putin, or some other future Tsar, will not cross it.

NOTE: Ukraine, The Baltic States, Georgia, Belorussia, et al, will not be on the 'Western' side of that Line.

That line has already been drawn and is called NATO article 5. If we were to give up that line now and let the Russians have the Baltic states, then NATO is dead and there are no lines we can draw anymore that they will not cross.

Only Real Power matters in these situations.

There is no Law. OLD Treaty's, as History Instructs, are only Honored if ALL Party's STILL believe it is in their best interests. They should be considered 'null-and-void', if not.

See WWI when this did not happen. Want THAT?

Repeating: Who, excepting Suicidal WWI types: Will Fight, Die, and possibly cause unleashing Nuclear Weapon's, regarding the Country's I listed.

The civilian Populations of Sweden, Finland, Germany, et al, will not wish to die for Ukraine, et al.

Sorry.

Why should we want to die for Germany. Or France. Or the UK. Or the US? People generally don't want to die period. But if we are gonna get into an armed conflict with Russia, than it might as well be over the Baltic states as over Poland or Germany.

Well you are closer to them than the UK is so we'll let you deal with them first OK?

Is that how NATO works?
Article 5 doesn't say anything about proximity to an agressor.

NATO was Erected for the Defense of West Germany, Austria, Denmark, France et al.
Not (Using Cold War Speak), to fight for the Liberation Eastern Europe. Nor to die for anything else.
If the Nations of NATO made a 'Fatal Flaw', by expanding its role...
Does the Freedom and Existence of Germany, depends upon Freedom for Lithuanians? Or Drawing a well defined, and accepted 'Line' against Expansionist Russia.
Putin appears, by his actions, to be saying 'This is Ours, back off'.
Who's willing to possibly start WWIII, to stop the return of the Old Soviet Boarders and Influence.
We did live with that.
Does anyone really believe that, if NATO attacks Russian Forces: You can limit the extent of the war?

I see. NATO is led by the US and doesn't help member countries in crisis.
I thought it was NATO's task not to attack Russian Forces.

NATO was Erected for the Defense of West Germany, Austria, Denmark, France et al.

Not (Using Cold War Speak), to fight for the Liberation Eastern Europe. Nor to die for anything else.

If the Nations of NATO made a 'Fatal Flaw', by expanding its role...

Its to late for that now. If we don't help the Baltic states when article 5 demands it, then whats there to stop countries from avoiding to help out Germany or France when the Russians come knocking on their door?

And you wouldn't just lose the Baltic states, you would also end up tearing the EU to bits. Is that something you'd like to see, another divided Europe? Doesn't make for a good buffer zone for the US you know. Or for a very valuable trading partner.

Does the Freedom and Existence of Germany, depends upon Freedom for Lithuanians? Or Drawing a well defined, and accepted 'Line' against Expansionist Russia.

We have drawn the line at the Russian-Lithuanian border. Because of that, the freedom of the Lithuanians has been tied to the freedom of the Germans. If we can't hold one line, we can't hold any line. Also, what keeps Germany safer? A direct border with the Russians, or still a few hundred kilometers of allied countries?

Besides, why are their lives worth less than the lives of the Germans?

Putin appears, by his actions, to be saying 'This is Ours, back off'.

And we should tell him that the Baltic states are not his personal play thing and that if he wants it, he will invite the ruin of his nation.

Who's willing to possibly start WWIII, to stop the return of the Old Soviet Boarders and Influence.

I am, most of Eastern Europe is. Also, if Putin tries something like that, well then I would start to agree with the parallels linking him to Hitler.

Does anyone really believe that, if NATO attacks Russian Forces: You can limit the extent of the war?

Maybe. Given that both sides are nuclear powers, and both sides have the capacity to wipe out all life on earth, both sides have a strong incentive not to escalate to the nuclear level. It would remain a conventional war. And one the West has the advantage in.

The outcome of such a war is that the Russians lose either way. In conventional terms they cannot defeat NATO, and if they escalate, all they will achieve is that everyone loses.

Now does anyone really think that a thief like Vlad will listen?

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/vladimir-putin-could-be-worlds-richest-person-with-stolen-257b-fortune-investor-claims/story-e6frfmci-1227222057528

Cheers.

Who's willing to possibly start WWIII, to stop the return of the Old Soviet Boarders and Influence.

I am, most of Eastern Europe is. Also, if Putin tries something like that, well then I would start to agree with the parallels linking him to Hitler.

So you're willing to take the rest of the world down with you & all because of your political views?
That parallel with Hitler sure sounds like you rather than Putin.

Who's willing to possibly start WWIII, to stop the return of the Old Soviet Boarders and Influence.

I am, most of Eastern Europe is. Also, if Putin tries something like that, well then I would start to agree with the parallels linking him to Hitler.

So you're willing to take the rest of the world down with you & all because of your political views?
That parallel with Hitler sure sounds like you rather than Putin.

So you are suggesting appeasement to someone like Putin and hope for 'peace in our time'?

I rather hope we dont have to invoke article 5, but if he attacks NATO then yeah, its time for us to let Putin know he crossed the line.

No, not suggesting that at all. If the EU kept it's nose out, the West wouldn't be in this quandary.

These Arm Chair War Mongering Generals, who have never Fought in Combat, makes me...

They don't realize how the real world changes when you and the "enemy" are staring at each other through a sight....a real pucker factor.

---

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

No, not suggesting that at all. If the EU kept it's nose out, the West wouldn't be in this quandary.

And if Napoleon had access to nuclear weapons he might have conquered Russia. But he didn't have access to nuclear weapons, so the scenario is little more than a fun thought experiment. The same goes for the Baltic states, we didnt keep our noses out, they are now NATO members, which means we have already drawn the line and now we have to stick to it.

Putin apparently wants to return to the borders, and influence, of the old Soviet Union.

We kill and die because of a mistake NATO and stupid EU Leaders made?

Yes. And I wouldn't say it was a mistake. Its never a mistake to get more allies.

If Putin threatened Western Europe: Then you fight.

Why? What makes Western Europe more valuable than Eastern Europe? Why are you okay to wage WW3 if its Germany thats being threatened, but not when its the Baltic states? Do the people there not deserve the same commitment to their safety and freedom than the people in Germany?

More importantly, why do you believe that WW3 won't happen if we give Putin Eastern Europe? What makes you think he will stop at the German border? What makes you think he won't demand that Germany be split up again? We have given him Eastern Europe already by that point, we have shown that we have absolutely no spine by then, so whats there to stop him from demanding more and more?

These Arm Chair War Mongering Generals, who have never Fought in Combat, makes me...

I'm not a warmonger. Quite the opposite in fact. I am however, also not okay with cutting our allies off and throwing them in front of the wolves (bear?) and hope that appeasement works, because that is what this comes down to. It didn't work back in the 1930's, why the hell would it work now? Your logic is flawed.

Russian prosecutors requires that the leading Putin critic Alexei Navalnyj to be sentenced to ten years in prison. Meanwhile his brother Oleg was sentenced to three and a half years in prison, a sentence which he must serve.
The judge at the trial in December claimed that the brothers Navalnyj tricked the French cosmetics giant Yves Rocher by channeling funds to a private transport company.
But the French company has no claims from the Brothers.
"Just like a couple of years ago when Alexei Navalnyj was convicted of 'stealing forest' is hardly anyone who thinks otherwise than that the judges is political commissioned"
https://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dn.se%2Fnyheter%2Fvarlden%2Faklagare-kraver-fangelse-for-putinkritiker%2F&edit-text=

Ye Gods man, if you can't see that then there is no hope for you at all. Mind you there wasn't much before if I recall.

Indeed, I can see absolutely no reason why it would be okay for us to cut off Eastern Europe and hope that the Russians will stop at the German-Austrian border.

He doesn't, and may never, understand.

How about we put him at 'Point' during an assault on Vast Russian Forces.

He WILL die in Screaming Terror, and in Extreme Pain, while attempting to force his Spilled Guts, back into his body.

He wishes this upon Other's, because of a 'Piece of Paper'. Why not him?

Now you are wishing painful deaths upon people you dont agree with? How tasteless, you really have reached a new low.

But okay, let me ask you this. If its not okay to defend Eastern Europe because it could be a war and people die in wars, why is it suddenly okay to do the same thing when we are talking about the defense of Germany? Are you saying that if you get killed in Germany it won't be painful? That it won't be scary if the Russians assault there?

War is war, it doesn't matter if you are fighting in Germany or in Lithuania, the war remains the same.

Ye Gods man, if you can't see that then there is no hope for you at all. Mind you there wasn't much before if I recall.

Indeed, I can see absolutely no reason why it would be okay for us to cut off Eastern Europe and hope that the Russians will stop at the German-Austrian border.

Well if the USE actually end up as powerful as the USA, maybe they can stop them...

...oh wait, the Russians are at the gates of Berlin - The EU/NATO? Still debating tactics :-)

Why?

Putin has been very specific, since the mid 1990's, what his intensions are.

Do you have Secret Information?

Hitler was also very specific about what he wanted. We gave it to him and it was never enough.

That aside, just because Putin wants something, we should give it to him? Why and since when? Because we are afraid he throws a temper tantrum? Maybe even start a war he can't win? Why would he start a war he can't win? Thats also not like Putin.

Thats also not like Putin.

But it is! All politicians do it, it's known as the "Power Game" & the biggest aphrodisiac in the world.

Obviously, you have not read (or understood) 'Mien Kampf'. Not studied the many, many speeches Hitler gave. Or you wouldn't mention Hitler, as pertaining to Putin.

Oh right, so we should have just given him Poland, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, and Russia as well.

Sure, we could evade war for a time by keeping to ourselves, following isolationist policies and letting people like Putin make good use of the fact that we are divided and individually weak. But what good is peace if it costs you your freedom?

But who brings up WWII in debates? What about WWI, Palestine, Japan/China in the 30's, the Spanish Civil War, Korea, Vietnam, Crimea, Boer, & all the others from the 19th/20th centuries?

Of course, we mustn't forget those of the 21st century...