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Message 1516566 - Posted: 15 May 2014, 16:25:38 UTC

Today is the dedication of the 9/11 memorial museum.
The prominence of the cross in the display withstood legal challenges because it is not a religious symbol.


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Message 1518446 - Posted: 19 May 2014, 21:42:30 UTC

The 9/11 museum’s absurd gift shop

As if the ridiculous entrance fee wasn't shameful enough.
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Message 1518448 - Posted: 19 May 2014, 21:49:38 UTC - in response to Message 1518446.

The 9/11 museum’s absurd gift shop

As if the ridiculous entrance fee wasn't shameful enough.


+1 :(

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Message 1518452 - Posted: 19 May 2014, 22:07:31 UTC - in response to Message 1518446.

The 9/11 museum’s absurd gift shop

As if the ridiculous entrance fee wasn't shameful enough.

Hurray for Capitalism.

I wonder though, how is this different from a gift shop at the end of a war museum? Those museums are dedicated to one of our most destructive urges which has cost the lives of millions of people. Take the gift shops of the Pearl Harbor memorial sites (there are several, apparently each with their own giftshop), they carry useless junk as well, and they also remember one of the most devastating attacks on the US. But how many people do you hear complain that they are selling useless coins, medals, tshirts, souvenir framed flags and toys?

Really, plenty of museums dedicated to some really nasty events have tasteless giftshops at the end.

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Message 1519766 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 14:42:08 UTC - in response to Message 1518452.

The 9/11 museum’s absurd gift shop

As if the ridiculous entrance fee wasn't shameful enough.

Hurray for Capitalism.

I wonder though, how is this different from a gift shop at the end of a war museum? Those museums are dedicated to one of our most destructive urges which has cost the lives of millions of people. Take the gift shops of the Pearl Harbor memorial sites (there are several, apparently each with their own giftshop), they carry useless junk as well, and they also remember one of the most devastating attacks on the US. But how many people do you hear complain that they are selling useless coins, medals, tshirts, souvenir framed flags and toys?

Really, plenty of museums dedicated to some really nasty events have tasteless giftshops at the end.

I'm sure there were people 'hawking' their trinkets after the Gettysburg Battle (American Civil War - 1863).

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Message 1519795 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 16:08:30 UTC - in response to Message 1518446.
Last modified: 22 May 2014, 16:17:32 UTC

The 9/11 museum’s absurd gift shop

Do they sell ground zero crosses? It's not a religious symbol.



They could have waited until the public opening though.
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Message 1519944 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 19:37:26 UTC - in response to Message 1519795.

The 9/11 museum’s absurd gift shop

Do they sell ground zero crosses? It's not a religious symbol.



They could have waited until the public opening though.

Before the Christians stole it for their death cult, it used to be the pagan symbol for the tree of life.
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Message 1520003 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 21:41:13 UTC - in response to Message 1519944.


They could have waited until the public opening though.

Before the Christians stole it for their death cult, it used to be the pagan symbol for the tree of life.

The Ground Zero Cross is not a Christian symbol. That metal on a cross arm does not represent the risen Jesus.



My point is there appears to be a change in the strict separation of church and state since the "religion of peace" attacked "The Great Satan".

Supreme Court upholds legislative prayer at council meetings An interesting side note; there is not one Protestant on the Supreme Court.
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Message 1520004 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 21:51:54 UTC - in response to Message 1520003.


They could have waited until the public opening though.

Before the Christians stole it for their death cult, it used to be the pagan symbol for the tree of life.

The Ground Zero Cross is not a Christian symbol. That metal on a cross arm does not represent the risen Jesus.



My point is there appears to be a change in the strict separation of church and state since the "religion of peace" attacked "The Great Satan".

Supreme Court upholds legislative prayer at council meetings An interesting side note; there is not one Protestant on the Supreme Court.

What does the cross represent?
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Message 1520021 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 22:53:05 UTC - in response to Message 1520004.

What does the cross represent?

It is just a cross beam found in the wreckage of the World Trade Center.



Left by Jesus to give the finger to "the religion of peace". I would have opposed the cross on government property but not now. If those people want a crusade they will get a crusade but they know that now.
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Message 1520024 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 23:07:17 UTC - in response to Message 1520021.

What does the cross represent?

It is just a cross beam found in the wreckage of the World Trade Center.



Left by Jesus to give the finger to "the religion of peace". I would have opposed the cross on government property but not now. If those people want a crusade they will get a crusade but they know that now.

The Saudis?
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Message 1520028 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 23:27:46 UTC - in response to Message 1520024.

If those people want a crusade they will get a crusade but they know that now.

The Saudis?
Just one but Ossama now sleeps with the fishes. They can stone, behead or cane their own all they want. Don't bring it here.

Before 9/11 I never gave much thought to any religion or how they dressed or behaved. I do now and it isn't the Amish or Hasidim. They should have let sleeping dogs lie.
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Message 1520035 - Posted: 23 May 2014, 0:10:00 UTC - in response to Message 1520028.

If those people want a crusade they will get a crusade but they know that now.

The Saudis?
Just one but Ossama now sleeps with the fishes. They can stone, behead or cane their own all they want. Don't bring it here.

Before 9/11 I never gave much thought to any religion or how they dressed or behaved. I do now and it isn't the Amish or Hasidim. They should have let sleeping dogs lie.

Sooooo, you've identified a problem with religion, and you want to fix it with...more religion.

I see.
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Message 1520037 - Posted: 23 May 2014, 0:18:53 UTC - in response to Message 1519944.
Last modified: 23 May 2014, 0:19:24 UTC

Before the Christians stole it for their death cult, it used to be the pagan symbol for the tree of life.

Before I reply, understand I am an Atheist.

I truly do not understand the need for some people to attack the Christen Religion. No, I am not speaking of persons, or organizations who profess to be Christian.

All I see is a meanness, and possible bigotry, in the hearts of the attackers.

Haven't we learned from history the results of attacks against religion?

To those Christians in this discussion, who have not pushed 'The Red X': You are, at least, showing the Compassion and Forgiveness your Religion professes.
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Message 1520061 - Posted: 23 May 2014, 1:06:44 UTC - in response to Message 1520037.

Before the Christians stole it for their death cult, it used to be the pagan symbol for the tree of life.

Before I reply, understand I am an Atheist.

I truly do not understand the need for some people to attack the Christen Religion. No, I am not speaking of persons, or organizations who profess to be Christian.

All I see is a meanness, and possible bigotry, in the hearts of the attackers.

Haven't we learned from history the results of attacks against religion?

To those Christians in this discussion, who have not pushed 'The Red X': You are, at least, showing the Compassion and Forgiveness your Religion professes.


Well... ooh sorry - forgot to say hello :) Hello everyone, how are you all?

ES is actually correct in the origins of the cross. In fact many Christian traditions were purloined by the early Christian church as a means of stifling paganism and preventing their early followers from hedging their bets with their original gods (so to speak). It's kind of why we have Christmas at... well Christmas... instead of when it would be more correctly celebrated (September-ish).

Re the death cult reference - the Bible is in fact littered with some very apocalyptic views on extermination of whole races, and ultimately hurling the vast proportion of us into eternal hell (according to some branches of Christianity, for even daring to believe that dinosaurs once walked this earth) - so it seems not too unreasonable a term to adopt for someone who is seeking to be concise, rather than ramble on at length like myself. :) But that is just my opinion and I sincerely hope I have caused no offence in expressing it. If I have I apologise :)

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Message 1520104 - Posted: 23 May 2014, 2:41:54 UTC

This isn't about supporting a religion but the surprising court decisions lately to let religion back into state funded functions. The ground zero cross is so obviously a christian symbol, it was blessed by a priest before going on temporary display at ground zero until it permanent home was finished.

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Message 1520164 - Posted: 23 May 2014, 4:58:32 UTC - in response to Message 1520037.

Before the Christians stole it for their death cult, it used to be the pagan symbol for the tree of life.

Before I reply, understand I am an Atheist.

I truly do not understand the need for some people to attack the Christen Religion. No, I am not speaking of persons, or organizations who profess to be Christian.

All I see is a meanness, and possible bigotry, in the hearts of the attackers.

Haven't we learned from history the results of attacks against religion?

To those Christians in this discussion, who have not pushed 'The Red X': You are, at least, showing the Compassion and Forgiveness your Religion professes.

I state a fact and you call it an attack.

Christianity is so clearly a death cult. Their symbol of worship is a man dying horrifically on a cross.

If Christians are offended by their own religion, then that's their problem, not mine. Christians appear to me to spend a lot of time being offended at people who don't take their beliefs as seriously as they do. I find that offensive.

To be honest, I am actually extremely offended by your post, but I decided not to red X it because I am not petty and can survive with my ego intact when people say things I don't agree with.
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Message 1520205 - Posted: 23 May 2014, 8:30:46 UTC
Last modified: 23 May 2014, 9:16:03 UTC

Just one of the occasional thoughts that waft through my brain :) again - no offence intended... just curious... but aren't symbols supposed to be a bit iffy if you're a Christian? I mean, it doesn't look good... 2.1 billion Christians... yet only 1000's receive mercy...

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.


You don't suppose it was a mistake adopting the pagan cross do you...?

Hope everyone has a lovely weekend. :)

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Message 1520225 - Posted: 23 May 2014, 11:15:55 UTC - in response to Message 1520164.

Before the Christians stole it for their death cult, it used to be the pagan symbol for the tree of life.

Before I reply, understand I am an Atheist.

I truly do not understand the need for some people to attack the Christen Religion. No, I am not speaking of persons, or organizations who profess to be Christian.

All I see is a meanness, and possible bigotry, in the hearts of the attackers.

Haven't we learned from history the results of attacks against religion?

To those Christians in this discussion, who have not pushed 'The Red X': You are, at least, showing the Compassion and Forgiveness your Religion professes.

I state a fact and you call it an attack.

Christianity is so clearly a death cult. Their symbol of worship is a man dying horrifically on a cross.

If Christians are offended by their own religion, then that's their problem, not mine. Christians appear to me to spend a lot of time being offended at people who don't take their beliefs as seriously as they do. I find that offensive.

To be honest, I am actually extremely offended by your post, but I decided not to red X it because I am not petty and can survive with my ego intact when people say things I don't agree with.

You choice of words, and attitude, confirms my post.

Meanness, and other things, do use 'Facts' (Which I don't disagree) for other purposes.

If you can offend Christians, then Christians can offend you by their symbols.

Just a personal question: What exactly is offensive about The Cross (Yes, I do capitalize, not to offend religious beliefs).

And if you are offended: So what?
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Message 1520227 - Posted: 23 May 2014, 11:52:28 UTC - in response to Message 1516566.

Today is the dedication of the 9/11 memorial museum.
The prominence of the cross in the display withstood legal challenges because it is not a religious symbol.



As it's not a religious symbol, nobody would mind if it were rotated 90 degrees in the vertical plane, or 180, right?
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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