True but as you stated, copper is expensive, now take into account the length of the tunnel.

That's one hell of lot of copper.

Okay, but isn't the wire also copper? The rail wouldn't have to be any bigger than the wire and might even be hollow, thus reducing the amount of copper in it. (Or maybe not. The size of the wire is probably determined by the current it's required to carry, and that would also apply to a rail.)

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

True but as you stated, copper is expensive, now take into account the length of the tunnel.

That's one hell of lot of copper.

Okay, but isn't the wire also copper? The rail wouldn't have to be any bigger than the wire and might even be hollow, thus reducing the amount of copper in it. (Or maybe not. The size of the wire is probably determined by the current it's required to carry, and that would also apply to a rail.)

Not sure of the size of the mainline's 3rd rail as I've never took notice. However both the positive & negative rails (which carry 630v DC) on the Underground are larger than the running rails.

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True but as you stated, copper is expensive, now take into account the length of the tunnel.

That's one hell of lot of copper.

Okay, but isn't the wire also copper? The rail wouldn't have to be any bigger than the wire and might even be hollow, thus reducing the amount of copper in it. (Or maybe not. The size of the wire is probably determined by the current it's required to carry, and that would also apply to a rail.)

I looked for what catenary wire was made of, but I found no answer, the only conclusion I can draw is since copper is valuable to thieves, why advertise? In any case the support structure is steel and glass/ceramic insulators, plus there is the messenger wire and weights to keep the catenary wires taught. Sure that's a lot of copper, but it's a better metal for the job than steel is, as the links explain better than I can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_lines
http://www.differencebetween.net/object/difference-between-steel-and-copper/

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Again that is quite true, but you've missed the whole point. Overhead cabling has been the major cause of many train incidents.

As practically all companies see profit as the overriding goal, incidents such as what occurred to date with the Eurotunnel eats into those profits.

How long before such an incident becomes a fatal one?

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True but as you stated, copper is expensive, now take into account the length of the tunnel.

That's one hell of lot of copper.

Okay, but isn't the wire also copper? The rail wouldn't have to be any bigger than the wire and might even be hollow, thus reducing the amount of copper in it. (Or maybe not. The size of the wire is probably determined by the current it's required to carry, and that would also apply to a rail.)

I looked for what catenary wire was made of, but I found no answer, the only conclusion I can draw is since copper is valuable to thieves, why advertise? In any case the support structure is steel and glass/ceramic insulators, plus there is the messenger wire and weights to keep the catenary wires taught. Sure that's a lot of copper, but it's a better metal for the job than steel is, as the links explain better than I can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_lines
http://www.differencebetween.net/object/difference-between-steel-and-copper/

It's probably some sort of copper alloy, carefully formulated to use the minimum amount of copper to carry the current, while also providing extra strength and stretch resistance.

I never asked, but I've always assumed US transit systems use steel for the third rail. Every one I've ever seen looks like steel. Certainly not copper.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Again that is quite true, but you've missed the whole point. Overhead cabling has been the major cause of many train incidents.

As practically all companies see profit as the overriding goal, incidents such as what occurred to date with the Eurotunnel eats into those profits.

How long before such an incident becomes a fatal one?

Which is why I think an overhead rigid rail or pipe might be better than a wire.

That track now has wire over it all the way to St. Pancras, doesn't it? I seem to remember that when the tunnel was first built, train speed was limited in the UK by the 3rd rail it had to use. (I could be wrong about that.)

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Not sure of that myself. I would think that a solid rail in use at high speed would be more reliable than a cable.

Edit: -

I can recall many occasions on the East Coast Main Line where a diesel had to be used to recover the trains I was travelling on due to serious issues with the overhead cabling.

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Not sure of that myself. I would think that a solid rail in use at high speed would be more reliable than a cable.

Exactly my point!

Edit: -

I can recall many occasions on the East Coast Main Line where a diesel had to be used to recover the trains I was travelling on due to serious issues with the overhead cabling.

This has been known to happen at the museum too, although not actually due to wire problems in any case I have personally witnessed.

In fact, on Saturday, the pair of Illinois Central electric suburban coaches (which had been shoved out to the west end the night before) managed to run themselves into the station and then wouldn't move again (something about the batteries not charging). An electric freight locomotive was brought in to move them out of the way so we could make one more trip on the steam train.

Apparently, all they do to 1500 VDC IC and South Shore equipment is swap out the air pump motor with a 600 VDC motor. Doesn't really matter that it can't get up to full speed, since it's limited on our railroad anyway.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Pulling Boeing plane fuselages from Montana river after a train derailment in northern Montana.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/pulling-boeing-plane-fuselages-from-montana-river-going-slowly/story-e6frfqc9-1226981271590

THREE aeroplane fuselages that slid down a steep embankment into a river following a train derailment in northern Montana state, US, could take until tomorrow to move, railroad officials said.

“The progress is going extremely slow,” Montana Rail Link spokeswoman Lynda Frost said. “If we get one up today, it would appear it will take one day each to get them out.”

She said a crew of 50 with eight heavy-equipment machines was working together to hoist up the three Boeing 737 fuselages, the large, central portions of planes that hold passengers.

Six fuselages were aboard a westbound train when 19 cars derailed Thursday, sending the three fuselages into the Clark Fork River. The three remaining plane sections also fell off but stayed on land. No one was injured in the derailment, which is under investigation.

At least the rafters were given an unexpected sight.

Cheers.

A lot of people assume that a solid "wire" will give better contact than a flexible one... But a pantograph tends to suffer aerodynamic flutter at high speeds, this is damped out by a flexible wire, but causes chatter on a solid wire.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

My guess, stranded steel core, stranded copper over wrap.

Gives good tensile strength and good conductivity.

---

when I was a little boy of 6 years in 1948 old living in a Logging camp

350 Miles north of Vancouver

My Dad was Logger and he had an A- fame set up for pulling Logs of the hill down to the Salt Chuck

It Looked some thing like this Photo.

the main line was 1 and 1/2 ... inch wier rope.





Photo 1948

Left to Right:

Me, My Mother, my 4 year old brother, My Dad, and my 17 year old Brother.

This doesn't show our transportation safety regulator in a good light...

MP's call for oil companies to face chopper safety inquiry

...with reading these comments, I would say it's needed...

"We fear a creeping complacency may be affecting safety standards."

'Bullying culture'
"The role and effectiveness of the CAA has not been adequately examined.
Concerns were also expressed about a "macho bullying culture" within the oil and gas industry, including workers who expressed safety concerns being told they should leave their jobs.

After reading the above, I would imagine that their confidence in chopper safety is low...

"Louise Ellman said: "After four accidents in five years, offshore workers' confidence in helicopter safety is understandably low."

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My guess, stranded steel core, stranded copper over wrap.

Gives good tensile strength and good conductivity.

Some systems do use copper over steel, but the preferred materials are special copper alloys, or special aluminium alloys. Most are a sort of figure of eight cross section, with a small upper part (where it is attached to the supporting structure, and a somewhat flattened lower surface, to give a reasonable contact area. The lower surface has to be smooth, with no sharp edges, burrs or the like which would damage the contact strip, which is carbon or carbon/copper...

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

The good side of transportation...

Nice pilot

...and a company boss to put all others to shame...

"The captain paid for it out of his own pocket - but he has now been telephoned by the airline's president who has said that he will reimburse him for the cost."

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This hits me kind of close to home, in more ways than one.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/woman-dies-after-slipping-under-moving-train/26928000

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

This hits me kind of close to home, in more ways than one.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/woman-dies-after-slipping-under-moving-train/26928000

Plus, I first saw the article while sitting in front of the East Union depot between runs yesterday.

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David
Sitting on my butt while others boldly go,
Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri.

Bad reporting or something Moscow has to worry about?

Train derails

"Reports say there was chaos and panic on the packed commuter train after it stopped abruptly due to a power surge which set off an emergency alarm and braking system."

The only times I stopped that abruptly was when powering up leaving a station when emergency handles pulled (in the days when they actually worked, unlike now where they just flash up on the drivers console).

If at speed, they coasted to a stop...

...which begs a serious question as to how this happened...

"Another witness told Life News television: 'I got into the carriage and after about 20 seconds, the light went out and the train was just pulled apart."

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Here in central Florida they finally got the "Sunrail" commuter trains in operation. Right now it just runs from Deland, about 40 miles north of Orlando, to just south of downtown Orlando. It uses the CSX mainline trackage. They have rerouted or rescheduled most of the freight traffic in the area. Since they started service in May there have been several minor accidents but so far no fatalities. People in Orlando are used to only two passenger trains a day passing through so it will take some getting used to. There is a park-ride lot near where I live and so far it has been mostly empty. It will take a lot of intense PR to get the locals to give up their cars to go to work and instead ride a train, no matter how much safer it is.

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Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

Bad reporting or something Moscow has to worry about?

Train derails

"Reports say there was chaos and panic on the packed commuter train after it stopped abruptly due to a power surge which set off an emergency alarm and braking system."

The only times I stopped that abruptly was when powering up leaving a station when emergency handles pulled (in the days when they actually worked, unlike now where they just flash up on the drivers console).

If at speed, they coasted to a stop...

...which begs a serious question as to how this happened...

"Another witness told Life News television: 'I got into the carriage and after about 20 seconds, the light went out and the train was just pulled apart."

Wild guess, power fail, emergency brake automatically applies.

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