You did not reply or quote a post, so I must ask, William.
Are you responding to me, specifically?

I have made it clear that I applaud your and others' efforts in fixing what is broken in creditscrewed.

I await it eagerly.

I simply said that in the context of things as they are now, it treats me as goodly or badly as any other, and so as far as Seti work is concerned, I am not overly anxious about it.

Meow, friend.

No, I wasn't responding to you specifically, more to the feel of the thread and the opinion(s) voiced by a few people. Had I been wanting to reply to your post specifically I'd have done so.

Understood, and thank you.

Most of us are on the same page.

Just some rebels that think the rest of us cannot see what they are doing.

I shall continue to advocate the change from 100/host to 100/GPU.
That is a reasonable request, with a predictable outcome.
And not a bad one, as most multi-GPU hosts are fast ones. And turn work around in a reasonable manner. It would not burden the database much to grant that request.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

So you are that noble person that says 'I don't mind how much I get paid for my work, I'd work for nothing at all' does that give you the right to make your employer pay less to everybody else too, inclusing those who desperately need the money?

Who gets money? I get digital cobblestones. It appears the project doesn't care or it wouldn't permit this hustle.

How does one do the hustle? If you can't beat them become anonymous and join them.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/results.php?hostid=6016862

Of course being "anonymous" anyone can claim the glory.

---

So you are that noble person that says 'I don't mind how much I get paid for my work, I'd work for nothing at all' does that give you the right to make your employer pay less to everybody else too, inclusing those who desperately need the money?

Who gets money? I get digital cobblestones. It appears the project doesn't care or it wouldn't permit this hustle.

How does one do the hustle? If you can't beat them become anonymous and join them.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/results.php?hostid=6016862

Of course being "anonymous" anyone can claim the glory.

I have heard rumors that soon Seti cobblestones are going to be convertable to Bitcoins.

I shall be a millionaire.....LOL.
And may finally be able to financially request a bonafide Seti toaster.

But, that same rumor places the adjusted value of a Seti toaster at about 5 billion, US. So, I guess I have a ways to go yet.

Anybody have an exchange rate calculator between Seti creds and Bitcoins?

I suspect about .000000000000000000000000000001 to 1.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

So you are that noble person that says 'I don't mind how much I get paid for my work, I'd work for nothing at all' does that give you the right to make your employer pay less to everybody else too, inclusing those who desperately need the money?

Who gets money? I get digital cobblestones. It appears the project doesn't care or it wouldn't permit this hustle.

How does one do the hustle? If you can't beat them become anonymous and join them.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/results.php?hostid=6016862

Of course being "anonymous" anyone can claim the glory.

The project (or rather Eric) cares, but can't do anything about it, because seti server code lies in the hands of David Anderson. If we want anything to happen at Seti we will have to convince David that the CreditNew implementation is inadequate.

So sadly, we can rant as much as we want, until we have a solid rolling pin, nothing will change. Up to now, my rolling pin hasn't been solid enough.

As Jason mentioned elsewhere there's only 2 1/2 of us and we have limited time, patience and drive. The next stage is planned - well drafted - but needs significant work mainly from Jason and from the third party project administrator/developer (i.e. different project) I've managed to recruit to the cause. Rome wasn't built in a day, you know...

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A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. (Mark Twain)

So you are that noble person that says 'I don't mind how much I get paid for my work, I'd work for nothing at all' does that give you the right to make your employer pay less to everybody else too, inclusing those who desperately need the money?

Who gets money? I get digital cobblestones. It appears the project doesn't care or it wouldn't permit this hustle.

How does one do the hustle? If you can't beat them become anonymous and join them.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/results.php?hostid=6016862

Of course being "anonymous" anyone can claim the glory.

The project (or rather Eric) cares, but can't do anything about it, because seti server code lies in the hands of David Anderson. If we want anything to happen at Seti we will have to convince David that the CreditNew implementation is inadequate.

So sadly, we can rant as much as we want, until we have a solid rolling pin, nothing will change. Up to now, my rolling pin hasn't been solid enough.

As Jason mentioned elsewhere there's only 2 1/2 of us and we have limited time, patience and drive. The next stage is planned - well drafted - but needs significant work mainly from Jason and from the third party project administrator/developer (i.e. different project) I've managed to recruit to the cause. Rome wasn't built in a day, you know...

Ah, meowsigh.

You shall have to build a formidable case for Dr. Anderson to take even the slightest notice of your efforts. And that is sad.

Best continued wishes in your (our) quest.

Meow.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Just curiosity, to rise the limit from 100 per host to 100 per GPU we need the bless of Eric or Dr. A? Just that could help us a lot. At least our crunchers will not run empty on each tuesday outage.

@william

We all know you and your small team is working on the fix of creditscrew, and thanks you all for that. My point to open this thread is to warning some "anonymous" users who build in a 3GTX 660 Ti who a 776 AP WU cache for example...

---

Just curiosity, to rise the limit from 100 per host to 100 per GPU we need the bless of Eric or Dr. A? Just that could help us a lot. At least our crunchers will not run empty on each tuesday outage.

@william

We all know you and your small team is working on the fix of creditscrew, and thanks you all for that. My point to open this thread is to warning some "anonymous" users who build in a 3GTX 660 Ti who a 776 AP WU cache for example...

Limits are science i.e. project staff (Eric/Matt/Jeff) have say over that.
I have raised the topic with Eric, I can probably renew the request to the whole team, maybe we get lucky.

BUT as you can see from the tech post, the database is very bloated and can't be handled really, so they may wish to keep it as lean as possible (and therefore the limits). I'll be renewing my plea to at least get 'per device' limits again, but I think chances are low.

---

A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. (Mark Twain)

Just curiosity, to rise the limit from 100 per host to 100 per GPU we need the bless of Eric or Dr. A? Just that could help us a lot. At least our crunchers will not run empty on each tuesday outage.

The 100 limit would be Eric. Well, the whole of the SETI team - include Matt and Jeff, as well.

I don't think Eric has much day-to-day responsibility for the project servers and databases (OK, maybe he has responsibility, but less day-to-day involvement). The others would need to be convinced that the change was a benefit to the project as a whole, rather than (or as well as) to a specific group of users - the multi GPU-per-host crew, which is a little specialised. I suspect that there'd be a counter proposal to keep the database lean and easy to maintain, from their side of the table.

Eric. And Matt, I believe, as he does most of the administration concerning the database. Unless I am much mistaken.

I have contacted Eric once again requesting the change.
He has said in the past that he would take it up in their weekly meetings.

I don't really expect a favorable response.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

...
BUT as you can see from the tech post, the database is very bloated ...

I think the "very bloated" database refers to the science database, which wouldn't be affected by this change.

Changing the limits would have a direct impact only on the BOINC database, which is currently relatively small - they might like to keep it that way.

...
BUT as you can see from the tech post, the database is very bloated ...

I think the "very bloated" database refers to the science database, which wouldn't be affected by this change.

Changing the limits would have a direct impact only on the BOINC database, which is currently relatively small - they might like to keep it that way.

Well, I must admit that such a change would only benefit a few power users.
A very small percent of the whole. So, I can totally understand the reluctance to change such a thing, given what we few mean to the totality.

I am OK with things as they are, just a wish list, as it were.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

There's also probably a few people like me that have deferred a 2nd GPU because I don't want to worry about running out of work. I recently had to replace my MB and power supply, and sized for a 2nd GPU, but....

Might get Dr. A's attention to the credit problem if you mention the cheating - he's taken action in the past about that. Of course, we could just see a reduction in AP credits....

---

Another Fred
Support SETI@home when you search the Web with GoodSearch or shop online with GoodShop.

There's also probably a few people like me that have deferred a 2nd GPU because I don't want to worry about running out of work. I recently had to replace my MB and power supply, and sized for a 2nd GPU, but....

Might get Dr. A's attention to the credit problem if you mention the cheating - he's taken action in the past about that. Of course, we could just see a reduction in AP credits....

I really don't wish to get Dr. Anderson involved.
It's only a very few users who wish to screw with the system. Not really something to worry DA about.
And, I guess 'cheating' might be too strong a word, they are just playing the system.
I consider it cheating of sorts, but nothing like the sorting of WUs that occurred years ago.

Whatever, I stand down now.

Y'all just cheat as you wish to or do not do so.

Meowsigh.

The kitty crew stands by their statement that no such shenanigans will be employed here, and they just wish to let everybody know that I do not.

End of line.

Meow.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

...
BUT as you can see from the tech post, the database is very bloated ...

I think the "very bloated" database refers to the science database, which wouldn't be affected by this change.

Changing the limits would have a direct impact only on the BOINC database, which is currently relatively small - they might like to keep it that way.

I agree and could add to that, maybe just let´s say 1000 users have such kind of multi GPU hosts, so the DB impact can´t be so significant, on the other side that will make our life a lot easier. Added to that, this possible 1000 users sure are some of the biggest contributors to the project, so give them a hand not bad too, sure some, like me, will have more incentive to power some more GPU´s if we have a way to feed them.

---

Of course, we could just see a reduction in AP credits....

My point is, The quantity makes no diference, the balance is what is important, if the balance from AP to MB where recovered (as was in the Seti 6 era) a lot of troubles like this will be avoid.

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@William
If re-scheduling additionally screw already screwed credit system, well, it screws it for everyone. So what the point? What unethical you see here? All in the same boat. If credit per task reduced then it will be reduced for everyone. [EDIT: BTW, we already had this on MB7 transition, and credit continues to drop even now. It's human nature that they wanna big numbers no matter what those numbers means, indeed. Well, then maybe time to reject CreditNew at all as some project does? It's just rithorical question, I know answer - never. But with dropping credits per task we already have distracted with credits users, no matter to do re-scheduling or not to do.]
And if you insist that credits are changed exactly for re-scheduled tasks then you just plain wrong, look earlier post for example.

Your post was emotional, but hardly has base of evidents. From the other side re-scheduling has evidents base regarding performance improvement.
If you wanna fix "CreditNew" - fine, hope new version will not care about re-scheduling. Then it will be much more useful for project goals ( to attract, not to distract users!).

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.

@William
If re-scheduling additionally screw already screwed credit system, well, it screws it for everyone. So what the point? What unethical you see here? All in the same boat. If credit per task reduced then it will be reduced for everyone.
And if you insist that credits are changed exactly for re-scheduled tasks then you just plain wrong, look earlier post for example.

Your post was emotional, but hardly has base of evidents. From the other side re-scheduling has evidents base regarding performance improvement.
If you wanna fix"CreditNew" - fine, hope new version will not care about re-scheduling. Then it will be much more useful for project goals ( to attract, not to distract users!).

Rasitmer............
My post was not based upon the impact or that not of, credits issued.
It was simply based upon the morals, or lack of, when crunching Seti.
There is no need of evidence.
You either abide by the rules as set forth by the project, or you try to evade them.
I, for one, do not try to evade the rules.

You seem to think it is OK, I do NOT.

You take what the scheduler sends you, and you make the best of it.
This is what you make of it. Like many issues in life, some shall work it to their advantage, some stand back and play by the book.

I take the latter stance.

I shall usually take the advantage with the best apps and advice given. Sometimes not.
But, I shall not ever take advantage of a loophole in the servers and try to take more than what I am intended to receive..

And I somehow take umbrage at your perceived approval of that. You are a good coder, not so good at leading men.

Your work on the apps is quite appreciated, but your attitude is not.

It is NOT ok, by most cruncher's standards, at least not mine, to abort, reschedule, or otherwise try to get around the limits. It is possible, as shown, but not ethical by at least MY standards.

I have made my statement of ethics here.

You can stand by them or continue to argue them.

I shall not.

Meow.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

...
BUT as you can see from the tech post, the database is very bloated ...

I think the "very bloated" database refers to the science database, which wouldn't be affected by this change.

Changing the limits would have a direct impact only on the BOINC database, which is currently relatively small - they might like to keep it that way.

If we can't get them to up the 100 CPU and 100 GPU tasks limit, can we at least get them to put in 200 task Total limit per host,
and take it from the Server side tasks in progress number, and not what the client reports (as not all clients report that),
that'll stop them building excessive caches. (more than 200 tasks anyway)

Claggy

Of course, we could just see a reduction in AP credits....

My point is, The quantity makes no diference, the balance is what is important, if the balance from AP to MB where recovered (as was in the Seti 6 era) a lot of troubles like this will be avoid.

BTW, it's strange indeed that such balance still unreachable. If CreditNew self-adapting (if not how re-scheduling can harm it at all?) then quite a lot time passed to re-balance credits between AP and MB.

The fact is - it did not happen. Maybe becasue some of base assumptions in very foundation of CreditNew are not good. Measuring CPU vs GPU times for MB and AP shows that current CUDA MB is relatively good for NV than current openCL AP.
So how CreditNew can pay less for more suitable app at all? How it can be that hoarding AP tasks on NV will increse RAC while it should decrease it?...

---

SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.

...
BUT as you can see from the tech post, the database is very bloated ...

I think the "very bloated" database refers to the science database, which wouldn't be affected by this change.

Changing the limits would have a direct impact only on the BOINC database, which is currently relatively small - they might like to keep it that way.

If we can't get them to up the 100 CPU and 100 GPU tasks limit, can we at least get them to put in 200 task Total limit,
and take it from the Server side tasks in progress number, and not what the client reports (as not all clients report that),
that'll stop them building excessive caches. (more than 200 tasks anyway)

Claggy

It's symptomatic treatment, not real cure. The reason why to build big cache should be removed, not the way to build big cache should be hardened.
Many other ways exist to circumvent even such limitation. Better to spend mind energy on thinking about cure, not about how to make illness to look better.

---

SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.