What did God do before creation?


log in

Advanced search

Message boards : Politics : What did God do before creation?

Previous · 1 . . . 18 · 19 · 20 · 21 · 22 · 23 · 24 · Next
Author Message
Profile Bernie Vine
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 26 May 99
Posts: 6957
Credit: 26,304,234
RAC: 33,998
United Kingdom
Message 1292365 - Posted: 7 Oct 2012, 9:39:54 UTC - in response to Message 1292221.

You got to admit, we love reality TV. Our minds are naturally voyeuristic.


Nope, I dislike reality TV greatly. If all reality shows were pulled from the airwaves, I might actually return to watching TV (assuming reality TV is replaced with quality shows).

Thought I was the only one!! Extremely cheap way of polluting the airwaves.
____________


Today is life, the only life we're sure of. Make the most of today.

Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31644
Credit: 12,674,448
RAC: 34,426
United Kingdom
Message 1292371 - Posted: 7 Oct 2012, 10:09:04 UTC

Nope, I dislike reality TV greatly. If all reality shows were pulled from the airwaves, I might actually return to watching TV (assuming reality TV is replaced with quality shows).

I would happily pay good money if someone would chuck Ant & Dec off a liner in mid Atlantic .....

Horacio
Send message
Joined: 14 Jan 00
Posts: 536
Credit: 73,398,960
RAC: 90,543
Argentina
Message 1292540 - Posted: 7 Oct 2012, 20:23:42 UTC - in response to Message 1292361.

Wow, i thought Einstein was kind of partial to religion. its seems that he was very strongly anti-religion.

Of course he was, he was a clever man.
And a scientist. A true scientist looks at the evidence, or more specifically, the complete lack of evidence for religion.

That's very biased... being clever doesnt prevent you to have believings...
Was not Einstein, who said that God doesn't play dice to show his rejection to Quantum theories/hipothesis?
For me, that is evidence that he may have been very critic about religions (in the sense of institutions ruled by men), but anyway he had his faith and he lived by that no matter how clever he was.

Of course, a scientist should look for evidence, it has to be skeptical on conclusions about not repeatable and observable things, and mainly he/she has to filter out any subjectivity in their "science" activities.
But, science is just a "tool" for knowledge, and by no means can be thought as the only, universal, absolute and ultimate tool to rule our entire lifes. You can choose to do it, but that is a sujective choice, and as any other subjective choice it could be perfect to you, but not for others...
Faith, religion, and any other spiritual beliefs are other ways to learn things (for example ethics or moral) that are less restrictive about subjectivity... And is up to you is you choose them or not, and again it may make perfect sense for me but not necessary for you...

Obviously, if we are going to share our knowledge, then we should do through science or else the subjectivity might lead us to disagree in everything... But then we had to accept that there are still answers that science can't give, for that answers, we can compare what each one believes and if we do it the right way then each one will try to undestand the other and see if there is something in common or not, but always having in mind that no matter how strong each ones belief is, it never will be enough to "convert" the other (at most both will get a wider view, or a less extreme position, but these things happens very few times...)

The nice thing is, in any case we both had subjective beliefs, even Einsted had, so beeing clever or not has nothing to do with what you believe.
If you choose the "die hard" science path, its not because you are clever, its just because your experiences in life, your personality, your temper, and a lot of other personal and subjective things made you think that's the best way... Someone is really clever if they can understand that "the best way" is not the universal best way for everybody.
____________

Profile Sarge
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Aug 99
Posts: 9253
Credit: 1,443,556
RAC: 1,914
United States
Message 1292557 - Posted: 7 Oct 2012, 21:31:34 UTC

I am sure people are using quotes to serve their own agendas, and cherrk-pick.
So, I am gathering just a "few" sites you can peruse, and as I gather and copy and paste the links, we may find evolving perspectives from Einstein. Read for yourself, and, of course, we may also be skeptical of the agendas of the website authors.

http://www.stopthereligiousright.org/einstein.htm
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp
http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/EinsteinGodReligionScience.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/04/albert-einstein-god-letter-ebay-auction-3-million-religion_n_1940726.html
http://www.deism.com/einstein.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

Profile soft^spirit
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 6374
Credit: 28,631,059
RAC: 12
United States
Message 1292595 - Posted: 7 Oct 2012, 23:15:21 UTC

The question remains before "God created the heavens and the earth" Does that mean she was homeless before?
____________

Janice

Sirius B
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 11053
Credit: 1,634,244
RAC: 2,711
Israel
Message 1292682 - Posted: 8 Oct 2012, 3:39:06 UTC

Some good points raised on this....

First Contact with God
____________

Profile Johnney Guinness
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 11 Sep 06
Posts: 3092
Credit: 2,533,418
RAC: 2,503
Ireland
Message 1292740 - Posted: 8 Oct 2012, 8:10:24 UTC - in response to Message 1292682.
Last modified: 8 Oct 2012, 8:23:30 UTC

Some good points raised on this....

First Contact with God

That video was really funny. Really enjoyed that :)

The comedian, Dave Allen is Irish. The video is funny for me because thats what Catholic schools used to be like in Ireland. I don't know what they are like today, maybe they have relaxed a little bit from the old ways. The video brings back memories from my school days. I went to a De La Salle Brothers Catholic school. Many good and bad memories. I'm from a later generation, religion was tought in my classes. But its wasn't shoved down our throat's. When your young, you pretty much just accept what ever they tell you.

Here is another one -
Dave Allen's thoughts about Adam and Eve;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGASvVqzOa0

John.

Profile Intelligent Design
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 12
Posts: 3626
Credit: 37,520
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1295854 - Posted: 16 Oct 2012, 4:50:01 UTC
Last modified: 16 Oct 2012, 4:51:38 UTC

Exodus 3:13,14. When Moses asked God what his name was, he replied “I AM.” In saying this, God was describing himself as the eternal self-existent being. Jesus gave a similar answer when asked about when he was born. He said in John 8:58, “before Abraham was born, I AM.”

This is not going to be a answer that most here will buy into. However, the Universe IS. It was caused. You cannot prove that it was by chance nor can you prove multiverses. Where there is no time, there is no creation (t=0) t=time. As I have stated God is outside of our timeline. Catholic theologian St. Thomas Aquinas addressed this question way back in the 13th century. In the pondering of the concept of causality, the man noted that everything which happens in the natural universe has a cause. He also noted that there had to be an initial cause of the first things. He defined God as the initial causer of all things. God is “the uncaused cause,” according to St. Thomas Aquinas. Although this is a very abstract definition and proof of God, it remains valid today.

Philosophers of science come up against the ultimate cause problem as well, although that is not admitted here. Example--one could ask why objects fall.People here that are honest with themselves and others might just explain that gravity is the cause of falling things. You could then ask the scientist why gravity exists. They might explain that all objects with mass produce gravitons, or gravity particles, which produce the attractive force and or Higgs Boson. You might proceed to ask why all objects with mass produce gravitons. The scientist will indeed get VERY, very abstract with you and begin discussing string theory or whatever that is in effect just hypothesis speculation and what he or she would call God. At some point, the scientist will have to stop and say “that’s just the way it is.” Or, if the scientist is not an atheist, he or she will say “God made it that way.”

Sirius B
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 11053
Credit: 1,634,244
RAC: 2,711
Israel
Message 1295894 - Posted: 16 Oct 2012, 8:24:00 UTC - in response to Message 1295854.

Now that is a good post I.D. Better than all this "first mover" crap.
____________

OzzFan
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 13614
Credit: 30,282,272
RAC: 20,906
United States
Message 1295935 - Posted: 16 Oct 2012, 11:48:45 UTC - in response to Message 1295894.

You'll need to look a little closer Sirius. His post was still pushing a 'first mover' argument as being just as valid of an answer as anything else he believes the scientists have - except that there is still no direct evidence that a 'first mover' exists. Any scientist that is honest with themselves, regardless of their faith or lack thereof will tell you that we simply don't have all the answers, and a conclusion of a 'first mover' is still a matter of faith and not science.

bobby
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 22 Mar 02
Posts: 1962
Credit: 14,795,253
RAC: 2,849
United States
Message 1295942 - Posted: 16 Oct 2012, 12:23:05 UTC - in response to Message 1295854.

Exodus 3:13,14. When Moses asked God what his name was, he replied “I AM.” In saying this, God was describing himself as the eternal self-existent being. Jesus gave a similar answer when asked about when he was born. He said in John 8:58, “before Abraham was born, I AM.”

This is not going to be a answer that most here will buy into. However, the Universe IS. It was caused. You cannot prove that it was by chance nor can you prove multiverses.

Straw man. Who here has argued that multiverses exist?

Where there is no time, there is no creation (t=0) t=time. As I have stated God is outside of our timeline.

You have stated it several times, you have not provided any evidence in support of the statement.

Catholic theologian St. Thomas Aquinas addressed this question way back in the 13th century. In the pondering of the concept of causality, the man noted that everything which happens in the natural universe has a cause. He also noted that there had to be an initial cause of the first things. He defined God as the initial causer of all things. God is “the uncaused cause,” according to St. Thomas Aquinas. Although this is a very abstract definition and proof of God, it remains valid today.

That's a valid proof? Clearly we differ on what constitutes the grounds of a valid proof. Why is Aquinas' statement that "God is the uncaused cause" any more plausible than Aristotle's "unmoved mover"? How many unmoved mover's did Aristotle believe might exist? Were either thinker aware that the Universe appears to be far stranger than they might've imagined, that causality might not be the universal truth they based their proofs upon?

Philosophers of science come up against the ultimate cause problem as well, although that is not admitted here. Example--one could ask why objects fall.People here that are honest with themselves and others might just explain that gravity is the cause of falling things. You could then ask the scientist why gravity exists. They might explain that all objects with mass produce gravitons, or gravity particles, which produce the attractive force and or Higgs Boson. You might proceed to ask why all objects with mass produce gravitons. The scientist will indeed get VERY, very abstract with you and begin discussing string theory or whatever that is in effect just hypothesis speculation and what he or she would call God. At some point, the scientist will have to stop and say “that’s just the way it is.” Or, if the scientist is not an atheist, he or she will say “God made it that way.”

A physicist will likely say something along the lines of "matter's interaction with the Higgs field is believed to be the thing that gives matter its mass, a Higgs boson is to the Higgs field as a photon is to the electro-magnetic field". Likewise, a graviton is believed to be the quantum particle that embodies the gravitational field. The answer "we don't yet know, it's the way it appears to be, though we are trying to find out" ("that's just the way it is") seems to me a much more credible statement of knowledge than "God made it that way", as the former is based on available evidence, the latter is not.
____________
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Profile Intelligent Design
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 12
Posts: 3626
Credit: 37,520
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1296071 - Posted: 17 Oct 2012, 5:50:28 UTC

Thank you Sirius B. I seen 2 posts after yours. I'll assume they were crap also? LOL!

Profile Chris SProject donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 19 Nov 00
Posts: 31644
Credit: 12,674,448
RAC: 34,426
United Kingdom
Message 1296094 - Posted: 17 Oct 2012, 8:06:16 UTC

The answer "we don't yet know, it's the way it appears to be, though we are trying to find out" ("that's just the way it is") seems to me a much more credible statement of knowledge than "God made it that way", as the former is based on available evidence, the latter is not.

I agree with that statement, it is reasonable one given all that we know at present, without exaggerating with wild claims.

Profile Intelligent Design
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 12
Posts: 3626
Credit: 37,520
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1296198 - Posted: 17 Oct 2012, 16:26:21 UTC

To the people I ignore...Just WAG is all that I seen from them. No real science that can be tested. GIGO.

OzzFan
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 13614
Credit: 30,282,272
RAC: 20,906
United States
Message 1296209 - Posted: 17 Oct 2012, 16:52:16 UTC - in response to Message 1296198.

So says the person who actually believes you can test for the presence of a Designer.

WinterKnight
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 8644
Credit: 24,062,950
RAC: 21,285
United Kingdom
Message 1296230 - Posted: 17 Oct 2012, 17:24:56 UTC - in response to Message 1296198.

To the people I ignore...Just WAG is all that I seen from them. No real science that can be tested. GIGO.

Unless you have answers to all the questions asked of you before your vacation you shouldn't be posting. Unless, of course, you have something scientifically proveable to add to the discussion.

Profile Intelligent Design
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 12
Posts: 3626
Credit: 37,520
RAC: 0
United States
Message 1296232 - Posted: 17 Oct 2012, 17:28:18 UTC - in response to Message 1296230.

To the people I ignore...Just WAG is all that I seen from them. No real science that can be tested. GIGO.

Unless you have answers to all the questions asked of you before your vacation you shouldn't be posting. Unless, of course, you have something scientifically provable to add to the discussion.


Unless you have real answers, no WAG, GIGO shouldn't be taught in school

Sirius B
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 11053
Credit: 1,634,244
RAC: 2,711
Israel
Message 1296237 - Posted: 17 Oct 2012, 17:39:05 UTC - in response to Message 1296232.

To the people I ignore...Just WAG is all that I seen from them. No real science that can be tested. GIGO.

Unless you have answers to all the questions asked of you before your vacation you shouldn't be posting. Unless, of course, you have something scientifically provable to add to the discussion.


Unless you have real answers, no WAG, GIGO shouldn't be taught in school



In that case, neither should Intelligent Design (No pun intened).
____________

OzzFan
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 13614
Credit: 30,282,272
RAC: 20,906
United States
Message 1296244 - Posted: 17 Oct 2012, 17:43:40 UTC - in response to Message 1296232.

To the people I ignore...Just WAG is all that I seen from them. No real science that can be tested. GIGO.

Unless you have answers to all the questions asked of you before your vacation you shouldn't be posting. Unless, of course, you have something scientifically provable to add to the discussion.


Unless you have real answers, no WAG, GIGO shouldn't be taught in school


Real answers = if you don't have one, make one up and call it "God", then make the data fit your conclusion.

I'd rather we take the scientific approach instead. This tends to get rid of GIGO like ID "theory".

musicplayer
Send message
Joined: 17 May 10
Posts: 1431
Credit: 687,186
RAC: 0
Message 1296390 - Posted: 17 Oct 2012, 23:20:11 UTC

Ah, blew my better contents. What a shame!

Previous · 1 . . . 18 · 19 · 20 · 21 · 22 · 23 · 24 · Next

Message boards : Politics : What did God do before creation?

Copyright © 2014 University of California