The "greatest good" is defined by the strongest. Hopefully they will meet the publics criteria for Justice.

The current problem is that each special interest is buying it's own private "Greatest Good" with voter blocs or money to the detriment of the society at large.

Famers via ethanol raising fuel and food prices
Sugar tariffs raising the price for everybody


The list is quite long

That old chenut comes to mind - "Money is the root of all evil".

What gets me is the race to accumulate the most wealth one can... WHY?

You come into this world with nothing & all you take out is the clothes on your dead body, so why screw your fellow man?

Regardless of how much wealth one has, you can only eat one meal at a time, sleep in one bed at a time, be in one home at a time.

Another laughable issue I have is with Islamic terrorists - 72 virgins? Really?

With all those in heaven being departed souls from here, surely by now, there are no virgins left.

As for the matter of God & the bible, if I recall correctly, isn't it down to God on Judgement Day to send us either up/down/limbo, in which case, I cannot understand those with extremely strong beliefs spouting their views to one & all.

Should those of us who do not believe in God actually face him for his judgement, I don't think we can come back & warn the rest of humanity.

So, one either believes or not & that friends is down to the individual.

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Poster with no name and (currently) no afterlife, tell that to the North Koreans, or the Cubans, or the Iranians, or the Syrians, or the ... I could go on. Just saw on the news a Syrian fighter pilot fled to Jordan. Why do you suppose he did that?

When those people get fed up enough with their current system, their citizens will self correct their situation, or ask for assistance and maybe some ally will help. If they are OK with their situation, then for them, it is already corrected.

William, you are correct, the "greatest good" is defined by the strongest. You can stop right there. With out God, they turn evil with nothing to stop them.

Again, I am without God and I have not turned to evil. Since God doesn't exist, there is no reason to believe that anyone turns to evil due to this lacking. Sure, many people do bad things, but most people are good and wish to live peacefully as self-governed individuals.

I'll be back in a couple days. You guys play fair and nice. If you're not sure what to do, ask yourself, "What would God do?"

Do you mean supposing God actually existed that we should sit back, do nothing, be irresponsible and let harm come to each other? Create a Big Bang, father a few billion people and let them fend for themselves? Tell them you'll only give them an afterlife if they believe in you, but you're not going to provide any proof of your existence to give them reason to believe?

Nah, if I'm not sure what to do, I'll ask myself, "What causes the least amount of harm and what is the most sensible thing to do given the available data?"

Should those of us who do not believe in God actually face him for his judgement, I don't think we can come back & warn the rest of humanity.

So, one either believes or not & that friends is down to the individual.

Fully agreed, and I can only add that one should keep their religion to themselves and people should stop telling others how to live according to the individual (invisible) God they believe in. (I.e. Stop forcing others to believe in the rules of your personal god through law.)

Should those of us who do not believe in God actually face him for his judgement, I don't think we can come back & warn the rest of humanity.

So, one either believes or not & that friends is down to the individual.

Fully agreed, and I can only add that one should keep their religion to themselves and people should stop telling others how to live according to the individual (invisible) God they believe in. (I.e. Stop forcing others to believe in the rules of your personal god through law.)

+1 for the simple reason Man's laws & God's laws are not really complimentary to each other.

You can live by one or the other, but not both....too many conflicts within one's head if an attempt is made to reconcile them to each other.

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Well, if we follow the rules followed by world-renowned scientists such as Steven Hawking (someone who seems to be one that most in here idolize, at least for the scientific methodology he uses), then there is no God or gods. Therefore, one god cannot be stronger than other gods.

I look around and see proof that God exists. We almost got into this a while back when I mentioned something about a right shift in probability analysis, which ever model fits nature more closely, but I refused to put in the effort required for what little reward was expected. And I'll probably refuse to do that again based on what I've seen you do time and time again in here. Religion, faith, belief, proof, and conclusions about the existence of God are a personal thing. And there are probably 7 billion relatively unique religions on this planet, minus the fraction of a percent who proclaim there is no God. Some of them align more closely with each other than others. Maybe it's because I have a mind that is a bit more open to ideas, maybe it's for other reasons. But it makes sense to me that there is only one God.

Other's believe in one God also, but a different God than the one I believe in. They force me to talk about "my God" and "their God." I put it in terms I thought everyone could understand about how one God can be more powerful than other gods. But I guess it's a pretty powerful concept to understand.

And there are some people who believe in more than one God. This does not make sense to me, otherwise we'd be witnessing their battles among each other, such as written in Greek and Roman mythology and we’d be able to see which one is more powerful than the other.

So, other than the rules to follow to prevent being deleted or banished, which rules are you following with regard to faith, proof that God exists, or yet to be proven God exists?

Apologies then for my failure to understand your terms. If there is only one God, I don't understand how it makes sense to talk about it being more powerful than other Gods as these other gods presumably don't exist. It seems to me to be akin to my saying I am more powerful than the fictional character Sherlock Holmes. The fictional character is utterly powerless outside the body of fiction in which he is depicted. As for my own views on faith, I believe they have been answered several times already, my feet are firmly planted in the natural, when I look around I see no evidence of God's existence.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Understand the statement "One God, above all other gods" (along with other similar ones) you have to understand something of the culture that was being addressed.

The majority of surrounding cultures were poly-theistic, believing that specific gods had either roles (the god that made the bread rise), or locations (the god of the big rock). The subjects of the address were becoming mono-theistic and had to be convinced that one god, God, could do both be the "god that made the bread rise" as well as be the "god of the big rock" at the same time, and with even greater efficacy than the plurality of gods that others around worshipped.
Putting it crudely what was being said to the Israelites was "This one God does everything that all those other little so called gods others have can do, and so much more, and in such a way that all those other gods are proven to be only inventions and not real god at all".

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Understand the statement "One God, above all other gods" (along with other similar ones) you have to understand something of the culture that was being addressed.

The majority of surrounding cultures were poly-theistic, believing that specific gods had either roles (the god that made the bread rise), or locations (the god of the big rock). The subjects of the address were becoming mono-theistic and had to be convinced that one god, God, could do both be the "god that made the bread rise" as well as be the "god of the big rock" at the same time, and with even greater efficacy than the plurality of gods that others around worshipped.
Putting it crudely what was being said to the Israelites was "This one God does everything that all those other little so called gods others have can do, and so much more, and in such a way that all those other gods are proven to be only inventions and not real god at all".

As this one God before all others was explained to me, The hebrews were aware that other civilizations had their Gods. Jehovah was better than all of the others. Much like all the other civilizations claimed their God's were.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

As this one God before all others was explained to me, The hebrews were aware that other civilizations had their Gods. Jehovah was better than all of the others. Much like all the other civilizations claimed their God's were.

Better how? Better in the way that (real) I am better than (fictional) Sherlock? Or better in the way that (fictional) Mycroft is better than (fictional) Sherlock? Or better in the way that (real) Guy is better than (real) me?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

it depends on what is is? sheesh Better, stronger, diviner, all powerfuller, mightier, grander, than all other gods.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

As this one God before all others was explained to me, The hebrews were aware that other civilizations had their Gods. Jehovah was better than all of the others. Much like all the other civilizations claimed their God's were.

Better how? Better in the way that (real) I am better than (fictional) Sherlock? Or better in the way that (fictional) Mycroft is better than (fictional) Sherlock? Or better in the way that (real) Guy is better than (real) me?

<sigh> As always Bobby, you're over-thinking this. It's all very simple.

You see, my God is better than all other Gods, but each God must be derived from personal experiences, and is not the same as other people's Gods... but then we're all part of a club of people each who have their own personal God... but our club's God is better than all other club's God... so like when we war about it and when we win, that was because my club's God was more powerful their their club's God... then like after we win we're gonna tell you that the reason you lost was because your God sucked and you should believe in our God... so like you must go on your own personal journey to discover your own personal God so long as he is the same God as our club's God... this way we can create an entire nation of believers in the same individual... I mean our club's God, and our club's God doesn't like change so don't try to change it even if your individual God likes change, that God isn't part of the club and we don't talk about him... so like our nation can totally be based upon our club's God and there's just simply no room for other God's in our nation, even though we all have our own personal God, but He's still part of the club because He doesn't like change... except for when that change involves preventing other people from making change or if the change is acceptable by everyone in the club... err, I mean, everyone's individual God in the club finds the changes acceptable so that, like, our God is not really the same God that we worshiped 5,000 years ago, or even 500 years ago, or like 100 years ago... and that's the problem! We need to return to worshiping the God from 100 years ago because God's angry and hates homosexuality and like, we need to tell everyone about keeping things the same... but like everyone needs to find their own individual club God who's so totally real and stuff.

So that's the reason why we must tell everyone that God is great. Amen.

Well I have a few of issues with God. According to the bible, on a couple of occasions he/she disliked what we were doing, so on the 1st warning, he/she gave us the "great flood" from which "noah" saved what he could according to god's wishes.

The 2nd warning was when he/she disliked all the corruptness, debauchery, homesexuality etc, that he/she destroyed sodom & gomorrah.

Now if the above is 100% factual, & taking into account the population scale of then & now, surely that god wouldn't have waited 2000 years to send us his/her 3rd warning?

Now if god was/is the "all powerful being" that many claim he/she is, & with the expanse of our universe as well as other universes, one would think that he/she would say....

"they haven't learnt so I'll start afresh - wipe all those unbelievers of the face of the planet, give it time to return to it's natural state & in the meantime, I'll start a new batch in another galaxy".

Then, depending on his/her mood, maybe start over again on the earth.

Sidenote: As this thread is reaching a high number of posts, maybe lock it & start part 2 afresh.......

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Do whatever produces the greatest good for the greatest number.

Follow only the principle that you want everyone to follow.

Gary, I see a logical fallacy in these additional rules to follow.

The 1st one sounds good, but who decides what the greatest good is if this is not based on a higher authority?

Pretty much the same fallacy with the second one. What if nobody wants to follow the principle that you want? Who's to say you are correct?

Without God, humans are evil. Jesus Christ fixed this.

Guy,

It is obvious you know little of what you speak. There is no fallacy in the statements. One can always misapply them as can someone misapply whatever you believe are God's requirements. That does not make a fallacy.

Perhaps if we back up a step and take a look at the two statements as well as the already posited Golden Rule.

Golden Rule is a care based.
The second is a ends based.
The third, rule based.

The second is perhaps more familiar to people here from a quote from a science fiction movie. "The needs of the many outweigh, the needs of the few, or the one."

The third is just the same as a stone tablet etched with commandments. Do not lie. Do not cheat. Do not steal.

The golden rule is familiar to most in the positive statement to treat others as we want to be treated. In that form it requires an action. In the negative form, don't do to others things you don't want done to you, allows for inaction.

In all cases of all rules, what is right or good and what is wrong or evil is not stated. Looking those up in the dictionary arrives at mostly circular references. In the end you get to "The principles of right and wrong that are accepted by an individual or group." In essence right and wrong, good and evil, must spring from yourself or the group you belong to. There is no huge list that covers every situation. Everyone, or each group, must make their own choice.

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Without God, humans are evil. Jesus Christ fixed this.

I am without God and I am not evil.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil: for I am the meanest bastard in the valley. I am a human.

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Should those of us who do not believe in God actually face him for his judgement, I don't think we can come back & warn the rest of humanity.

So, one either believes or not & that friends is down to the individual.

Fully agreed, and I can only add that one should keep their religion to themselves and people should stop telling others how to live according to the individual (invisible) God they believe in. (I.e. Stop forcing others to believe in the rules of your personal god through law.)

Yes. If you succeed and everyone follows the rules how can God sort them out come judgement time? Won't that be a huge sin, unforgivable, to have conspired to allow unfit non-believers into heaven?

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Right, and transforming a Psalm written (or at least attributed) to David -- from a 1000 years earlier. Then again, all that modern scripture writing (you know after about 1000 BCE) is either derivative or confused <smile>.

Without God, humans are evil. Jesus Christ fixed this.

I am without God and I am not evil.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil: for I am the meanest bastard in the valley. I am a human.

Sam Harris on the morality of theists.

And on a lighter note. Which God is stronger?

[ETA]Could this be where some here picked up their debating tactics?[/ETA]

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

[ETA]Could this be where some here picked up their debating tactics?[/ETA]

ETA?

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If you're not sure what to do, ask yourself, "What would God do?"

I'm still not seeing what's so hard about asking yourself "What's the right thing to do?" I don't need to be fearful of some being, to be capable of doing right by others. Why doesn't your god make sure others do right by us [By "us" I mean those of us that live our lives trying to do right by others]?

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#resist