Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III


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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III

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Profile Gary CharpentierProject donor
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Message 1246958 - Posted: 16 Jun 2012, 15:39:25 UTC - in response to Message 1246949.

Guy, be careful, they can't handle the truth.

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Message 1246994 - Posted: 16 Jun 2012, 16:52:02 UTC - in response to Message 1246949.
Last modified: 16 Jun 2012, 17:09:49 UTC

The only real answer is to reduce the population of the earth. Single payer health care using the QALY model for distribution of services is a step in the right direction. If we *really* want to save the planet... well, I don't think some of you are ready for the real answer... (Hint: Mao Ze-Dong, Hitler, Leopold II, Stalin, Hideki Tojo, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung (just to name a few...))

Guy, in my post earlier I refrained from touching on your point regarding the
reduction of the population. Yet I see this as a logical step forwards if man
wishes to continue to burn fossil fuels. The world governments have to come
together and decide uniformly are we or are we not damaging this planet with
man made Co2 emissions. If the decision is yes then take unilateral action to
combat it in the most practical and sensible ways. If later we find the
decision was wrong and that man was not at fault then the worse that would
have happened is we ended up with a cleaner planet. One thing that seems quite
clear, at least here in the UK, is that wind farms is the wrong route to take.
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Message 1247027 - Posted: 16 Jun 2012, 17:51:07 UTC - in response to Message 1246994.
Last modified: 16 Jun 2012, 17:52:45 UTC

... reduction of the population. Yet I see this as a logical step forwards if man wishes to continue to burn fossil fuels. The world governments have to come
together and decide uniformly are we or are we not damaging this planet with man made Co2 emissions. If the decision is yes then take unilateral action to combat it in the most practical and sensible ways. If later we find the decision was wrong and that man was not at fault then the worse that would have happened is we ended up with a cleaner planet. One thing that seems quite clear, at least here in the UK, is that wind farms is the wrong route to take.

Population is just one of the pressures. There's no need to invoke a holocaust... Better education is one good move for reducing the population as seen in Kerela India. The Chinese way is less savoury but quicker in extremis.

A cleaner planet is good for everyone. Except that is for the powerful fossil fuels industry...

Wind farms in the UK have been a good start and perhaps we have taken them far enough now. They have their place, but only as one method amongst many others that need further development. The wind farms are perhaps the easiest to start up. No bad thing there especially so for the Canary Islands!

There are a whole host of new technologies emerging to fuel our lifestyle. The question is more that of whether those new technologies are going to be sabotaged by politics and powerful industrial interests...


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Message 1247306 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 7:04:33 UTC

Population is just one of the pressures. There's no need to invoke a holocaust

Ml', you've got me confused here?

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Message 1247370 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 10:57:09 UTC
Last modified: 21 Mar 2014, 14:20:44 UTC

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Message 1247400 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 14:19:39 UTC - in response to Message 1247370.
Last modified: 17 Jun 2012, 14:21:20 UTC

See, I knew there were advocates of - 'elimination of Medicare, elimination of Medicaid, elimination of duty of care' - out there. Dull and ID both seem to see this mantra as a way of solving problems. We need to offer free burial or cremation though.

To show things are fair and balanced though, anyone owning a vehicle getting less that 20MPG should be shot.




The only way to save the planet (or at least make it last a bit longer) is to thin the heard immediately... a lot.

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Message 1247447 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 16:30:54 UTC - in response to Message 1247400.

See, I knew there were advocates of - 'elimination of Medicare, elimination of Medicaid, elimination of duty of care' - out there. Dull and ID both seem to see this mantra as a way of solving problems. We need to offer free burial or cremation though.

To show things are fair and balanced though, anyone owning a vehicle getting less that 20MPG should be shot.




The only way to save the planet (or at least make it last a bit longer) is to thin the heard immediately... a lot.


Absolutely. The exponential factor is the one that must be pruned first. That exponential factor is population. Global warming is a perfect fit to the population curve. 100% correlation factor. So if you want to stop global warming the only answer is to reverse human population growth. Have to take us down to the sustainable level of about 1/2 billion, and before 2025 the new tipping point year. Nature will do that to us anyway but it will take longer. So if you aren't say about an 10%'er you don't contribute enough to society, time for you to cease you drain on resources.

We can't do cremations, they release far too much carbon far too quickly. So I think the right way is just leave them where they fall to slowly rot. A testament to the deification of the global warming scientist.

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Message 1247495 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 17:42:48 UTC - in response to Message 1247447.

Fair enough, but let's air lift the bodies to Californian -- somewhere near Pasadena and leave them all there. Might start by filling up the tar pits.



We can't do cremations, they release far too much carbon far too quickly. So I think the right way is just leave them where they fall to slowly rot. A testament to the deification of the global warming scientist.

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Message 1247593 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 20:33:09 UTC - in response to Message 1247495.

La Brea would be a fine place, just watch how much carbon you burn transporting them there and the EPA requirements on the Los Angeles Smog Basin.

Fair enough, but let's air lift the bodies to Californian -- somewhere near Pasadena and leave them all there. Might start by filling up the tar pits.



We can't do cremations, they release far too much carbon far too quickly. So I think the right way is just leave them where they fall to slowly rot. A testament to the deification of the global warming scientist.



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Message 1247617 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 21:17:20 UTC - in response to Message 1247593.

... just watch how much carbon you burn ...


So... We're all on the road to a blindly selfish self-destruction?


Rio+20 deal weakens...

... "Faced with a triple planetary crisis - climate catastrophe, deepening global inequity and unsustainable consumption driven by a broken economic system - the text is neither ambitious enough nor delivers the required political will needed."...

... increase progress on renewables and energy efficiency, is only "noted" - not endorsed.

And there is no commitment to end fossil fuel subsidies, as some countries have been advocating. ...

... Various delegations, especially the US, Canada and the powerful G77/China bloc of 131 developing countries, have previously put red lines through many elements of the new text...




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Message 1247697 - Posted: 17 Jun 2012, 23:19:00 UTC - in response to Message 1247593.

It's all good, relocate the poor and elderly to the basin -- have those who can afford to move leave. Not a new concept -- ghetto -- been around for hundreds of years.



La Brea would be a fine place, just watch how much carbon you burn transporting them there and the EPA requirements on the Los Angeles Smog Basin.


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Message 1248276 - Posted: 19 Jun 2012, 7:21:57 UTC
Last modified: 19 Jun 2012, 7:41:54 UTC

OK.

My turn here.

I live in Upstate NY. We are known for having some of the highest annual snowfall anywhere in the US, excluding mountain towns.

Our historical area averages range: 99.5-123.8 inches (252.7-314.5cm) snowfall per year. (Try living here.)


But lately, it's strange. Very strange.
Last year's snowfall: 50.6-59.9 inches (128.5-152.1cm)...

!!!!!!!!!


(Someone tell me global warming/climate shift is NOT happening)

......
I'll add temperature stats in an upcoming post.
[edited to say we had plenty of RAIN last winter.........]
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Message 1248279 - Posted: 19 Jun 2012, 7:40:21 UTC

(Someone tell me global warming/climate shift is NOT happening)

Ex', it is happening but the jury is out regarding what's causing it all.
But since man has not been around long enough to have monitored natural global
warming and cooling phases on this planet there is controversy as to whether
this current change is purely a natural even or a man made event.


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Message 1248280 - Posted: 19 Jun 2012, 7:45:40 UTC - in response to Message 1248279.

(Someone tell me global warming/climate shift is NOT happening)

Ex', it is happening but the jury is out regarding what's causing it all.
But since man has not been around long enough to have monitored natural global
warming and cooling phases on this planet there is controversy as to whether
this current change is purely a natural even or a man made event.


I pretty much agree there Nick. There is evidence in both directions. Who really knows. There's good argument the dinosaurs farted their way into global warming...
:-)
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Message 1248296 - Posted: 19 Jun 2012, 10:09:35 UTC - in response to Message 1248280.
Last modified: 19 Jun 2012, 10:48:24 UTC

But lately, it's strange. Very strange.
Last year's snowfall: 50.6-59.9 inches (128.5-152.1cm)...


If there were global warming there would be more snow since warmer air holds way more moisture. What you experienced was one of the coldest weather early seasons ever. A normal climate extreme.

An early spring brought out fruit tree budding which was then killed off by the cold weather later on. My brother in northern Pennsylvania has several hundred fruit trees and will get no fruit this year. The cherry crop in Michigan was also decimated this year by cold weather.

Here in Tennessee we had an early warming following one of the coldest months on record. The roses were earlier this year than normal. It depends on where you live and the trajectory of the Jet Stream which can vary by a thousand miles or more and loop up and down pumping cold air all over the place.

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Message 1248387 - Posted: 19 Jun 2012, 15:51:12 UTC

Oops, models wrong again ...
http://blogs.voanews.com/science-world/2012/06/15/nasa-makes-surprise-discovery-in-arctic-ocean/
Garbage In, Garbage Out.

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Message 1248399 - Posted: 19 Jun 2012, 16:16:15 UTC - in response to Message 1248387.
Last modified: 19 Jun 2012, 16:16:38 UTC

Oops, models wrong again ...
http://blogs.voanews.com/science-world/2012/06/15/nasa-makes-surprise-discovery-in-arctic-ocean/

Oooooooooooooops...

So we are actually frying the Arctic even more quickly than was worst feared.


Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Such is denialist FUD.

So how many decimal places do you want to hide behind? We can ever more accurately watch the river flood... And still get washed away just the same.

Except in this instance, it's ourselves digging away at the dam to cause the flood.


And before you come out with your trite "it just can't be us" FUD: That question has long ago been settled by looking at the isotope signature of the mix of CO2 in our atmosphere. Now, if you know of any other natural process that is burning our billions of tons of fossil fuels each year, then please show your science...

Oh, and the adverse effects of the ever increasing CO2 are also pretty much beyond dispute. Is that why the FUD campaign has moved onto: "Oh it's happened before", and "It's good for us, trust us"...?


So... You want rapid climate change?...

Still our only one planet,
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Message 1248403 - Posted: 19 Jun 2012, 16:25:15 UTC - in response to Message 1248399.

Oh, and the adverse effects of the ever increasing CO2 are also pretty much beyond dispute.

Ah, the self admission there is still more work to do to prove the case.

Models wrong, Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Because you are talking about the necessity of exterminating 9 of 10 humans to prevent the tripping point in a decade, having the models right does seem important.
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Message 1248596 - Posted: 20 Jun 2012, 5:02:07 UTC - in response to Message 1248296.
Last modified: 20 Jun 2012, 5:05:34 UTC

But lately, it's strange. Very strange.
Last year's snowfall: 50.6-59.9 inches (128.5-152.1cm)...


If there were global warming there would be more snow since warmer air holds way more moisture. What you experienced was one of the coldest weather early seasons ever. A normal climate extreme.


As I mentioned in my post, we had plenty of rain. Contrary to your assumption it was also a historically warm winter here.

ALBANY, N.Y. - According to new data released today by the Northeast Regional Climate Center at Cornell University, the winter of 2011-12 is, so far, among the warmest and least snowy on record.
(From February 2012, after which point we had almost no snow and almost no weather below freezing.)

And extremely warm weather is not the only odd weather, others have extremely cold weather.

The whole point being, the weather in my neck of the woods has been abnormal for almost a decade, and I think many others are seeing abnormal extremes.
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Message 1248626 - Posted: 20 Jun 2012, 7:08:25 UTC - in response to Message 1248596.

And extremely warm weather is not the only odd weather, others have extremely cold weather.

The whole point being, the weather in my neck of the woods has been abnormal for almost a decade, and I think many others are seeing abnormal extremes.


Yes, Ex'; many regions have experienced changes in weather patterns over the
past few decades. For the UK this actually started back in the mid 1700's
since we had started to record weather and temperatures accurately by then.
Back then the level of Co2 would have been much lower than it is today so what
caused the start of our global warming back then. Well it could not have been
due to Co2 levels in the atmosphere so it must have been caused through a natural
warming phase kicking in. How much of the amount of global warming that we are
experiencing today is through natural causes and how much through man-made
causes...we simply don't know the answer as yet. I know from archaeological
research covering the past 2000 years, in the UK, that we would be entering a
natural warming phase around the 1700's which for the UK should last around
300 years. So at some time within this current century we should expect this
warming phase to peak then evidence of a natural cooling phase starting to kick in.
I know also that past warming and cooling phase have created tremendous changes
to many-many regions on the planet. But the cooling phase has always been the
most problematic for it seriously affects plant growth and animal survival.
One thing I noticed looking at current weather data for the UK was the average
increase in temperature measure between year 1960 and 2000. It has increased
over this time by about 0.4 deg'C very much in line with the measured increase
in the sun's temperature...is there any correlation here, for I can't remember
over what period of time the sun's increase in temperature was measured over.


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