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Sirius B
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Message 1156297 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 15:36:14 UTC - in response to Message 1156294.

Fair comments BUT as mentioned on the news this morning, what about the Human Rights of the residents in that community...don't theirs count for anything?

DO YOU SEE ANY LAWYER jumping onto their Bandwagon?
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Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1156300 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 15:40:43 UTC - in response to Message 1156297.

Fair comments BUT as mentioned on the news this morning, what about the Human Rights of the residents in that community...don't theirs count for anything?

DO YOU SEE ANY LAWYER jumping onto their Bandwagon?


Sirius, fundamental mistake No.1...Human Rights Act was bought about to
protect only those who have broken the law and not for those who abide by it.

bobby
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Message 1156302 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 15:48:30 UTC - in response to Message 1156297.

Fair comments BUT as mentioned on the news this morning, what about the Human Rights of the residents in that community...don't theirs count for anything?

DO YOU SEE ANY LAWYER jumping onto their Bandwagon?


What Human Rights of the other residents of the community are in jeopardy of being breached? Note I did not say, and nor did the UN state, that the Dale Farm's residents Human Rights had or were about to be breached. At this point I think Chris's comments are valid, Human Rights legislation has not been shown to be part of the Dale Farm topic until such time as there is evidence to show otherwise I think it wise to adhere to his request.

It is estimated that there are a large number of illegal Traveller sites in the country mainly in Essex and the South, but I don't have exact numbers. See this report from 2009 Numbers. Many other Councils are therefore in the same position as Basildon are. If the eviction ruling is upheld and carried out, then it will give the impetus for other Councils to tackle their own problems in the same way, citing the Dale Farm decision. That is what I meant by far reaching effects.


I had thought that planning decisions were generally a matter of municipal byelaws. If that is the case, then the effects may not be all that far reaching.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Sirius B
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Message 1156305 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 15:54:58 UTC - in response to Message 1156300.

Fair comments BUT as mentioned on the news this morning, what about the Human Rights of the residents in that community...don't theirs count for anything?

DO YOU SEE ANY LAWYER jumping onto their Bandwagon?


Sirius, fundamental mistake No.1...Human Rights Act was bought about to
protect only those who have broken the law and not for those who abide by it.


Thanks MJ...I forgot....we "poor" civilised decent residents have no lwayers or BHL's to jump to our rescue...

Must remember that in future.
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Sirius B
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Message 1156306 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 15:57:00 UTC - in response to Message 1156294.


[quote]The UK has been the object of an enquiry from CERD under the
early warning and urgent action procedure. During its 76th session
in February 2010, CERD considered the impending eviction of an Irish and Romani Traveller community from Dale Farm in Essex.
The committee expressed concern that the planned eviction of the Traveller community from Dale Farm might imply a breach of Article 5 e (iii), guaranteeing the right to housing.


BUT isn't this a breach of human rights or we going to get pedantic?
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bobby
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Message 1156340 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 17:08:05 UTC - in response to Message 1156306.


The UK has been the object of an enquiry from CERD under the
early warning and urgent action procedure. During its 76th session
in February 2010, CERD considered the impending eviction of an Irish and Romani Traveller community from Dale Farm in Essex.
The committee expressed concern that the planned eviction of the Traveller community from Dale Farm might imply a breach of Article 5 e (iii), guaranteeing the right to housing.


BUT isn't this a breach of human rights or we going to get pedantic?


What the UN said "may imply a breach" is not the same thing as saying "there is (or is not) a breach". I don't think that's an exercise of pedantry. The UN has not said that the activities at Dale Farm are a breach of Human Rights under the UN treaties, nor do I have evidence to believe any UK or European Court has been given a chance to rule on the Dale Farm matter on a Human Rights basis. That others may choose to conflate Dale Farm with Human Rights legislation does not mean that we have to. Can we move on?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Sirius B
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Message 1156361 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 18:05:48 UTC - in response to Message 1156340.

So why did the UN get involved? It's certainly a national & not an international issue UNTIL Article 5 is breached!

Showing concerns? Shouldn't they be looking elsewhere on more obivious concerns? Or is this an easy target to deflect criticism of the UN?
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Message 1156381 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 19:27:26 UTC - in response to Message 1156361.

So why did the UN get involved? It's certainly a national & not an international issue UNTIL Article 5 is breached!

Showing concerns? Shouldn't they be looking elsewhere on more obivious concerns? Or is this an easy target to deflect criticism of the UN?


While I can't speak for the UN, the document in question is specifically about Britain, I would imagine that there are similar documents about other UN member nations. The same document also notes:

Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD). The Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) is the UN ‘treaty body’ that monitors the implementation of ICERD. It is made up of 18 independent members from around the world; all are considered experts on racial discrimination. They are nominated by and elected to the committee by the states parties. They typically serve a four-year term.

CERD meets twice a year in Geneva to review periodic reports from the states parties. The Committee also makes general recommendations to further explain provisions in the Convention or explore issues of particular relevance. For example, in the past, general recommendations have addressed issues such as racial discrimination in the criminal justice system and discrimination against the Roma, or Gypsies and Travellers in the UK


There is a "monitor" function which implies that issues do need to be referred to it prior to an investigation. At the start of an investigation I would imagine that this body may not have sufficient evidence to conclude that an article had been breached. Given that the CERD found that there may be the implication of a breach, it would be reasonable to assume that they are paying close attention to events, though I have no evidence to suggest that CERD would ever directly intervene on behalf of any of the parties.

Unless and until there is something of substance to discuss in relation to Human Rights legislation with respect to Dale Farm, I hope that we can now all agree that there is no Human Rights element currently at play before the courts.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1156395 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 19:51:50 UTC





Mr Cottle said Mrs Flynn was being "dispossessed", and it was arguable there had
been an unlawful interference with her right under Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights to a private and family life.


An abstract above from a report about the travelers in protest in the supplied photo. So it seems to me that in the minds of these travelers legal teams there certainly hoping to use the Human Rights act as a potential defense against eviction.

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Message 1156414 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 20:29:03 UTC - in response to Message 1156395.





Mr Cottle said Mrs Flynn was being "dispossessed", and it was arguable there had
been an unlawful interference with her right under Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights to a private and family life.


An abstract above from a report about the travelers in protest in the supplied photo. So it seems to me that in the minds of these travelers legal teams there certainly hoping to use the Human Rights act as a potential defense against eviction.


That Mr Cottle has said that it is "arguable" does not mean that Mr Cottle, or indeed anyone else, has made the argument in court. A banner does not indicate anything other than the banner maker can use tools. It may well be that the legal teams are intending to submit such arguments, though I do not believe we have any evidence for them having done so to date. I guess, with Chris's permission, we could have a hypothetical discussion about the merits of making such a case.

I fear we are very wide of Chris's target for this thread. I don't believe anybody has shown that Human Rights legislation is at play in this case, and as I said before "that others may choose to conflate Dale Farm with Human Rights legislation does not mean that we have to".

Chris earlier mentioned the Dale Farm decision having "far reaching effects", if this is indeed at its core a planning dispute, are these not the province of municipal byelaws, and as such, the effects may not be so far reaching after all?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Sirius B
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Message 1156440 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 22:22:39 UTC

Oh but it will have far reaching effects if the public televised statement this morning from a resident is anything to go by.

Should the travellers win their case & remain, that resident who has had 2 planning applications for building an extension to her home, turned down...travellers win, she is going to go ahead with the extension & how can Basildon Council prosecute her when the illegal buildings at Dale Farm continue to remain should they win?

Interesting thought is it not? Or will the BHL's hit the resident because she is part of a captive market similar to motorists to force into paying Council Tax to see it all wasted as it currently is......& should they do prosecute her, then it would leave the Council open to accusations that they've taken back-handers.....

One law for them & one for us? Civil War here we come...& personally I would love that to occur......
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Message 1156446 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 22:45:19 UTC - in response to Message 1156440.

Oh but it will have far reaching effects if the public televised statement this morning from a resident is anything to go by.

Should the travellers win their case & remain, that resident who has had 2 planning applications for building an extension to her home, turned down...travellers win, she is going to go ahead with the extension & how can Basildon Council prosecute her when the illegal buildings at Dale Farm continue to remain should they win?

Interesting thought is it not? Or will the BHL's hit the resident because she is part of a captive market similar to motorists to force into paying Council Tax to see it all wasted as it currently is......& should they do prosecute her, then it would leave the Council open to accusations that they've taken back-handers.....

One law for them & one for us? Civil War here we come...& personally I would love that to occur......


I guess it depends on what we mean by far reaching, Chris said "far reaching effects upon the UK, and indeed maybe upon other countries", and it was his reference to other countries that lead us down a merry diversion :-).

Should the Dale Farm travellers win their case, their grounds for doing so should be available to all residents of Basildon, under the rules of case law (a.k.a. precendent). I'd imagine it's possible, though I have no idea how likely, that the case creates new law for England and Wales. I do not believe this case could create new law for Scotland or Northern Island. It's been a very long time since I had to study law books, so I may be incorrect on some of the details, if anybody knows better, I'd welcome their additions.

____________
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1156448 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 22:54:05 UTC

That Mr Cottle has said that it is "arguable" does not mean that Mr Cottle, or indeed anyone else, has made the argument in court. A banner does not indicate anything other than the banner maker can use tools. It may well be that the legal teams are intending to submit such arguments, though I do not believe we have any evidence for them having done so to date. I guess, with Chris's permission, we could have a hypothetical discussion about the merits of making such a case.


I can't find any reference to an argument for their Human Rights being raised in court. But Cottle has referenced this act so looking to see if it provides some kind of umbrella of protection for these people. The banner shows what the defendants consider to be a possible umbrella too. But what the public don't wish to see is this act used to protect law breakers from having to abide by the rulings of our courts. If the final case goes against these travelers then if their legal team feels they have protection under the Human Rights act we will see evidence in this with a case being presented in Strasbourg. A picture paints a thousand words so I think we may know whats on these travelers minds. Yet we don't know if they have a case to be able to claim a violation of their rights. Hopefully we shall have an answer some time on Thursday, one way or another.

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Message 1156452 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 23:19:04 UTC
Last modified: 26 Sep 2011, 23:19:25 UTC

Should the Dale Farm travellers win their case, their grounds for doing so should be available to all residents of Basildon, under the rules of case law (a.k.a. precendent). I'd imagine it's possible, though I have no idea how likely, that the case creates new law for England and Wales. I do not believe this case could create new law for Scotland or Northern Island. It's been a very long time since I had to study law books, so I may be incorrect on some of the details, if anybody knows better, I'd welcome their additions.


Case Law I believe is more about how judges interpret the law and then how it should be applied to individual circumstances. It tends to set a precedent that the legal fraternity can lay reference too in support of a case. Laws in the UK are produced under statute and judges, by their rulings, can have influence on the formulation of new laws or the amendments to existing laws. A good example of case law V statute law comes with the current trend of our courts in not finding people for killing burglars who enter their properties. It has been muted by the current UK P.M. that he wished to see this made law, so burglars watch out!

Sirius B
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Message 1156453 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 23:22:12 UTC - in response to Message 1156448.

Odds on that we won't. The judge stated earlier today in court that the original Eviction Notices were not clearly defined & that now some of the illegal plots are to remain...so to remove those Basildon Council will have to restart legal precedings again from the beginning with regards to those plots.

That tells me precisely what direction the case will take on Thursday.
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Message 1156462 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 23:53:50 UTC - in response to Message 1156452.

Should the Dale Farm travellers win their case, their grounds for doing so should be available to all residents of Basildon, under the rules of case law (a.k.a. precendent). I'd imagine it's possible, though I have no idea how likely, that the case creates new law for England and Wales. I do not believe this case could create new law for Scotland or Northern Island. It's been a very long time since I had to study law books, so I may be incorrect on some of the details, if anybody knows better, I'd welcome their additions.


Case Law I believe is more about how judges interpret the law and then how it should be applied to individual circumstances. It tends to set a precedent that the legal fraternity can lay reference too in support of a case. Laws in the UK are produced under statute and judges, by their rulings, can have influence on the formulation of new laws or the amendments to existing laws. A good example of case law V statute law comes with the current trend of our courts in not finding people for killing burglars who enter their properties. It has been muted by the current UK P.M. that he wished to see this made law, so burglars watch out!


I guess it's a matter of what we call "new law". Laws are certainly created by Statutes, though I believe that the legal community also uses the term for laws created under the rules of case law. For instance, it was a judicial decision (that of Donoghue vs Stevenson) that created law in relation to negligence. In the example you provide, case law or Statute may dictate that people are not permitted to kill burglars, if it is Statute, then this may only be overturned by further Statute or judicial review of the existing Statute (to establish whether the law is lawful), however, if it is case law, then either later case law or Statute may overturn it. Again, it's been a while since I studied any law books, so corrections are welcome.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1156468 - Posted: 27 Sep 2011, 0:01:04 UTC - in response to Message 1156453.
Last modified: 27 Sep 2011, 0:02:17 UTC

Odds on that we won't. The judge stated earlier today in court that the original Eviction Notices were not clearly defined & that now some of the illegal plots are to remain...so to remove those Basildon Council will have to restart legal precedings again from the beginning with regards to those plots.

That tells me precisely what direction the case will take on Thursday.


Indeed, if the application of the planning byelaws was not lawful, then the judge may dismiss Basildon's case. At which point it will be up to Basildon to decide whether it will restart proceedings in a lawful manner as indicated by the judge's decision (in such matters judges typically provide the grounds for reaching a decision together with directions to later cases regarding which elements being different would have resulted in a different decision being made). The rule of law is not simply that there are laws to which we must obey, it also calls for authorities to be lawful when applying law, for instance by upholding due process.
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1156474 - Posted: 27 Sep 2011, 0:20:12 UTC - in response to Message 1156453.

Odds on that we won't. The judge stated earlier today in court that the original Eviction Notices were not clearly defined & that now some of the illegal plots are to remain...so to remove those Basildon Council will have to restart legal precedings again from the beginning with regards to those plots.

That tells me precisely what direction the case will take on Thursday.


Getting it wrong does not say much about those in the councils legal department!

If your capable, you practice in the big cities.
If your fairly good you practice in the towns
If your mediocre you take-up politics and become an M.P
If your pretty useless at it you go and work for the local council.
If your an absolute waste of space at it you can hope to become P.M one day.

A prime example of permitted thread post "Troll speak"

Sirius B
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Message 1156579 - Posted: 27 Sep 2011, 10:22:14 UTC - in response to Message 1156474.
Last modified: 27 Sep 2011, 10:22:31 UTC

Snipped

If your capable, you practice in the big cities.
If your fairly good you practice in the towns
If your mediocre you take-up politics and become an M.P
If your pretty useless at it you go and work for the local council.
If your an absolute waste of space at it you can hope to become P.M one day.



ROFLMAO. Have cut & pasted this...I love it.
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Message 1156785 - Posted: 28 Sep 2011, 9:42:14 UTC

Now now Sirius/Michael, on topic please you two! :-)

I said the other day that the Travellers were chucking in everything bar the kitchen sink, and that wouldn't be long in coming either. Well, it's here, and they really must be getting desperate if they're going for this ploy.

I don't think the travellers can complain that they haven't had a fair hearing, but if they have got to go, then lets get on with it. All this fiddle faddling about is starting to turn into a farce now.

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