nVidia card list + RAC on SETI homepage, please!


log in

Advanced search

Questions and Answers : Wish list : nVidia card list + RAC on SETI homepage, please!

1 · 2 · Next
Author Message
Profile Alex Storey
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jun 04
Posts: 554
Credit: 1,671,241
RAC: 631
Greece
Message 1113521 - Posted: 5 Jun 2011, 16:54:23 UTC

Forgive me, but it's Sunday and I'm feeling philosophical:)
(And yes I fully appreciate the irony of typing up this request right next to the second-rule-of-SETI-club: •No commercial advertisements.)

I'll dive right in:

a) Where is the list of each nVidia GPU of the last 2 generations (at least), and their RAC's?

and

b) Why isn't it plastered all over the s@h front page?

and maybe even...

c) How is nVidia not one of the Sponsors?

Now that last question is obviously rhetorical, but I find it astonishing nevertheless. The least nVidia could do, would be to take care of a).
Has no-one in Santa Clara stumbled upon http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/top_hosts.php?

I bet most of you probably know each Fermi card's cuda core number by heart. I also bet someone attaching to s@h today, has never heard of cuda (maybe even nVidia). I think someone/somehow should make sure they do.

And drive the point home, like my laptops did for me:
73W Celeron 2.80GHz RAC = 155 (max)
13W Atom + 12W ION RAC = 1800 (max)

---

One way to (sort-of) make "the list" would be to form a group called (for example) "nvidia RAC" where users might have the name of their GPU. But that would take a special kind of volunteer, since it would make sense to not use the proc or lunatics. I'm sure there are better ways...

I'm a terrible "pitcher". I always have been. But I know there are a lot of smart people in these forums. So I'm hoping somebody can take these thoughts and "run" with them. Because posting "Note: if your computer is equipped with an [sic] Graphics Processing Unit (GPU), you may be able to use it to compute faster", just ain't good enough. I know, because I totally missed it when I re-joined.

Profile ignorance is no excuse
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 4 Oct 00
Posts: 9529
Credit: 44,433,321
RAC: 0
Korea, North
Message 1113576 - Posted: 5 Jun 2011, 20:06:39 UTC

RAC is dependent on the users. CPU and GPU are added together with each computer so it would be impossible to slice and dice the numbers from that direction. Also there is the problem with people OCing and using optimized apps for their CPU's and GPU's which is also the reason the CPU RAC's aren't listed as well.

If you are interested in the statistics then click on the "statistics" and do your own search
____________
In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

End terrorism by building a school

Profile Alex Storey
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jun 04
Posts: 554
Credit: 1,671,241
RAC: 631
Greece
Message 1113793 - Posted: 6 Jun 2011, 9:03:17 UTC - in response to Message 1113576.

"If you are interested in the statistics then click on the "statistics" and do your own search"

That's exactly my point, thank you:) It's taken me a year to figure out the numbers! And I've only just begun to wrap my head around 'em. Hence my crude outburst/request. I've reached the point now where it only takes me a few clicks to figure out that your 6 AMD rigs are costing closer to $400 per year in electricity, rather than $40. I also know a single card nvidia rig could do 20,000 RAC. But if a "chart" existed, it could take me 5' instead of a year!

Profile ignorance is no excuse
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 4 Oct 00
Posts: 9529
Credit: 44,433,321
RAC: 0
Korea, North
Message 1113840 - Posted: 6 Jun 2011, 12:07:35 UTC - in response to Message 1113793.

As I stated, No two people run their cards the same nor do they run the same OS, CPU, Mobo, RAM, running multiple WU's at a time on the GPU etc. There are too many factors involved in just seeing one persons stats let alone attempting to peel off the GPU tasks for annotation. There has been a request on the seti wish forum to have the a sub category for GPU and CPU tasks in addition to what is currently available.
____________
In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

End terrorism by building a school

Profile Alex Storey
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jun 04
Posts: 554
Credit: 1,671,241
RAC: 631
Greece
Message 1113882 - Posted: 6 Jun 2011, 14:25:59 UTC

But I'm trying to build a school!:-)

Ok, It's obvious I'm not striking any chords. I'll go back and do my "homework" and "present my case" a bit better next time.

OzzFan
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 13632
Credit: 31,158,022
RAC: 20,120
United States
Message 1113895 - Posted: 6 Jun 2011, 14:58:46 UTC - in response to Message 1113521.

a) Where is the list of each nVidia GPU of the last 2 generations (at least), and their RAC's?


Such a list would be inaccurate because of other system factors. What CPU? What type of RAM? Are they using an optimized application? Has the machine been streamlined for crunching or is it an everyday machine? Is the system overclocked? What OS?

Also, RAC isn't as constant as we'd like. With workunits of varying degrees of complexity, and quorum partners with varying levels of stability, advertising a card on RAC alone would be akin to false advertising to anyone who digs deep enough into the numbers.

Even if the project were to "advertise" a stock system, with stock apps, with the world's most popular OS, the numbers would still be inacurate enough to cause a great debate in their usefulness.

b) Why isn't it plastered all over the s@h front page?


Why give nVidia free marketing if they're not paying to sponsor?

c) How is nVidia not one of the Sponsors?


Because the only thing nVidia has done for the project was to make modifications to the stock SETI@Home source code to work with their CUDA initiative. nVidia hasn't chosen to sponsor SETI@Home financially.


One way to (sort-of) make "the list" would be to form a group called (for example) "nvidia RAC" where users might have the name of their GPU. But that would take a special kind of volunteer, since it would make sense to not use the proc or lunatics. I'm sure there are better ways...

I'm a terrible "pitcher". I always have been. But I know there are a lot of smart people in these forums. So I'm hoping somebody can take these thoughts and "run" with them. Because posting "Note: if your computer is equipped with an [sic] Graphics Processing Unit (GPU), you may be able to use it to compute faster", just ain't good enough. I know, because I totally missed it when I re-joined.


My personal opinion is to not advertise it any more than it already is. There's been a few threads in the past of angry users complaining because their GPU fried, or their performance is too slow (inadvertantly because, depending on the card, the CUDA architecture can slow down Windows Aero giving SETI@Home the blame and a prompt uninstall of the software) to warrant further advertising of GPU use.

Profile Alex Storey
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jun 04
Posts: 554
Credit: 1,671,241
RAC: 631
Greece
Message 1113939 - Posted: 6 Jun 2011, 16:08:46 UTC - in response to Message 1113895.

Thanx for the awesome reply Oz.

I'll ask these questions again in Number Crunching once I've crunched some numbers of my own...

For the moment though, would it be safe to say that your GTX 560 Ti has a maximum (24/7) RAC of 15,000 plus/minus 15%?

Profile ignorance is no excuse
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 4 Oct 00
Posts: 9529
Credit: 44,433,321
RAC: 0
Korea, North
Message 1114035 - Posted: 6 Jun 2011, 19:25:39 UTC - in response to Message 1113939.

So my point out the same thing he did wasn't good enough. Needed more people to tell you the same thing? really?
____________
In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

End terrorism by building a school

Profile Alex Storey
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jun 04
Posts: 554
Credit: 1,671,241
RAC: 631
Greece
Message 1114081 - Posted: 6 Jun 2011, 23:11:20 UTC - in response to Message 1114035.

My inexperience at posting is obviously showing.

Maybe I should have said "Thank you for the time and effort you put into replying", or something along those lines...

In fact I was disagreeing with both of you. Hence the whole part about asking the same questions all over again in number crunching.

OzzFan
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 13632
Credit: 31,158,022
RAC: 20,120
United States
Message 1114084 - Posted: 6 Jun 2011, 23:17:54 UTC - in response to Message 1113939.

For the moment though, would it be safe to say that your GTX 560 Ti has a maximum (24/7) RAC of 15,000 plus/minus 15%?


I would have no idea. The GTX 560 Ti is my friend's as I'm not really an nVidia guy. Also, the majority of my CPU time is going toward Rosetta@Home, so that system's RAC has never reached it's fullest potential.

Though SETI@Home is the only project his computer belongs to that has an nVidia application, so I would hazard a guess and say that no, the maximum RAC for his GTX 560 Ti is about what it is now, around 8-9,000.

OzzFan
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 13632
Credit: 31,158,022
RAC: 20,120
United States
Message 1114088 - Posted: 6 Jun 2011, 23:38:51 UTC - in response to Message 1114081.

In fact I was disagreeing with both of you. Hence the whole part about asking the same questions all over again in number crunching.


Number crunching is even more critical than we are here. Besides, I'm sure I'll repeat my opinions in whatever thread you create over there.

Profile Alex Storey
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jun 04
Posts: 554
Credit: 1,671,241
RAC: 631
Greece
Message 1114093 - Posted: 6 Jun 2011, 23:57:02 UTC - in response to Message 1114088.

I'm getting intellectually bullied by two AMD guys.

OzzFan
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 13632
Credit: 31,158,022
RAC: 20,120
United States
Message 1114096 - Posted: 7 Jun 2011, 0:57:54 UTC - in response to Message 1114093.
Last modified: 7 Jun 2011, 1:05:06 UTC

I'm getting intellectually bullied by two AMD guys.


Huh? I'm not an AMD guy, except maybe for ATi graphics cards, but I've been a fan of ATi since long before they were bought by AMD.

[Edit] ...and I'd like to add that I would never let my personal preference get in the way of a good idea. You don't know me well enough to know that I'm not that kind of guy, which means you also don't know me well enough to make that accusation that I would bully anyone. Seems a bit unfair of you to jump to conclusions like that.

Sorry, but I just don't think your idea is a very good one, and I've already laid out my reasons why, and I'd do it again in another thread if need be.

Profile Alex Storey
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jun 04
Posts: 554
Credit: 1,671,241
RAC: 631
Greece
Message 1115365 - Posted: 10 Jun 2011, 10:41:23 UTC - in response to Message 1114096.

Sorry it took me so long to reply

I fail to see how trying to give newcomers all the help they can get is a "bad idea". It's not a selfish request, I already know cuda exists (and the relative preformance of each card).

When my friends buy car/motorcycle magazines, or when I buy Home Cinema + Hi-Fi magazines, it's for the group tests and those pages at the end with all the specs. Subconsciously that's probably where I "stole" it from. Now obviously Seti can't turn into Tom's Hardware but...

But what? I'm not sure to be honest... I just think that if a car can have an MPG, then a cuda card can have an RAC. And yes "mileage may vary" but it's a good reference point. This isn't the stone-masons society were you would keep trade secrets, secret.

I know alot of people "live" in these forums and I'm guessing you guys do too. When you say "we here", you are taking for granted that I know who you are. With only a few comments under my belt, I think it's obvious I don't. If you have a title or place here, then it warrants introduction.

My only point is,I can only imagine the vast majority of seti volunteers never set foot in these forums. So a bit of extra info upfront (about cuda) can only be a good thing. What people do with that info is their business, and that's a good thing too. Again "I'm trying to build a school".

So if this is a wishlist, then that's my wish.

Profile Ageless
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Jun 99
Posts: 12341
Credit: 2,639,120
RAC: 1,240
Netherlands
Message 1115375 - Posted: 10 Jun 2011, 11:53:20 UTC - in response to Message 1115365.
Last modified: 10 Jun 2011, 11:57:36 UTC

I just think that if a car can have an MPG, then a cuda card can have an RAC.

A CUDA task never runs solely on the GPU. It will always run on the CPU as well, since the main program that runs under the OS cannot run solely on the GPU as no OS out there is capable yet of running solely on the GPU (on the videocard itself, only in the memory of the videocard, only using the GPU).

That's what everyone is trying to tell you.

So you have to at least add into the equation: Motherboard, speed of the CPU, speed of memory, speed of the bus that the videocard is in, speed of the GPU, speed of the memory on the videocard, and probably which brand, capacity and speed capacitors the motherboard and the videocards have.

That's totally different from a car where your mileage per gallon is dependent on size of the car, weight of the car, amount of people piled into the car, efficiency of the engine, efficiency of the transmission, size of the axles, wind-resistance, tire size, tire pressure, front wheel- or rear wheel drive or four wheel drive, are the windows open or not, where was the wind coming from, was the car going up or down hills or mountains, snow, rain, other traffic, etc. etc.
____________
Jord

Fighting for the correct use of the apostrophe, together with Weird Al Yankovic

OzzFan
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 9 Apr 02
Posts: 13632
Credit: 31,158,022
RAC: 20,120
United States
Message 1115379 - Posted: 10 Jun 2011, 12:03:03 UTC - in response to Message 1115365.

The problem with such a prominent list is that it would appear to be an endorsement from SETI@Home on which cards people should buy based upon an expected level of performance. One could easily look at the top participants to see how each person has achieved such a top spot without SETI looking like a marketing machine.

Then there's the RAC aspect of the suggestion. SETI@Home is a scientific project that should be focusing on the signals and results. They should not be encouraging people to buy specific hardware so that people can be more competitive with their RAC. I mean, why stop at GPUs? Why not just list the top performing CPUs too? Then that would give SETI the appearance of a strong bias for certain manufacturers, which again would be misconstrued as an endorsement.

I don't think that by not putting up information like this, that we (the "project" as a whole, including participants) are keeping anything a trade secret. The information is still there, and you don't even have to dig very deep. You can simply ask in any forum, with the best one being Number Crunching, or you can look at the Top Participants or Top Computers lists to see who's pulling what numbers and how.

So while your suggestion may be unselfish, what you are suggesting has far-reaching implications that I don't believe the project should venture into.



Yes, you could say I "live" in the forums. No, I do not have a title or position within the project. I am just a volunteer like you. If that knowledge motivates you to ignoring what I have to say simply because you don't agree, then that's your right.

Profile ignorance is no excuse
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 4 Oct 00
Posts: 9529
Credit: 44,433,321
RAC: 0
Korea, North
Message 1115413 - Posted: 10 Jun 2011, 14:23:03 UTC - in response to Message 1115379.

I hate to think anyone gets bullied here. brow beat maybe. The idea that Seti would waste time making spreadsheets that show every possible OS,all windows versions 32 and 64 bit, all linux versions 32 and 64 bit, all apple OSes 32 and 64, and a list of all other OSes. then to ask them to sift through this data and mention each GPU then create sub categories for over and under clocking.

Lets try and remember what it is that Seti@home scientists are doing. They are short staffed, under paid, and have an emormous workload. Their concerns are in dealing with servers, data, and analysis.

asking them to do spread sheets on something that clearly has no purpose and doesnt help get their work done means it's unlikely to get done
____________
In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

End terrorism by building a school

Profile perryjay
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 20 Aug 02
Posts: 3377
Credit: 16,005,252
RAC: 11,742
United States
Message 1115431 - Posted: 10 Jun 2011, 14:45:13 UTC - in response to Message 1115379.

As 0zzF4|\| said, you could ask in any forum but be prepared for hundreds of replies. Everyone is running a different rig at a different price range. Even those with a similar rig will get different performance out of it due to the way they work on their computer. A dedicated cruncher will turn in more than an every day workhorse rig like mine. Most of us try to find the best combination we can to fit what we want to do with what we can afford.

I was running a 9500GT in an EMachines Celeron Dual. Then I saved up and got an Intel E5400 dual and things were good. Then I saved a bit more, got myself a new power supply and a GTS 450 and things are much better. Next step will probably be a new motherboard and if I can't save enough to get both then later probably a Quad core. Or maybe the other way around. Each step changes the performance of my rig including the output of my GPU. When I put the E5400 in here my 9500 started throwing errors now and then. Nothing wrong with my 9500, just the 5400 threw it up close to the max power draw of the old power supply but it did affect my RAC. I haven't kept a log with the RAC change through all these changes but each step increases my RAC so I am happy for awhile.

Okay, my long winded point is figure out what you are shooting for, ask around on the forums and pick what seem to be the best suggestions for you.
____________


PROUD MEMBER OF Team Starfire World BOINC

Profile Alex Storey
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jun 04
Posts: 554
Credit: 1,671,241
RAC: 631
Greece
Message 1115624 - Posted: 10 Jun 2011, 21:56:23 UTC

It seems the more I try to not waste your time + energy, the more I end up doing exactly that!:) For that I apologize. I guess my english is rustier than I thought, so forgive me if I don't reply to each post seperately. When I said "I'm feeling philosophical...", I meant "I know it's next to impossible, but wouldn't it be nice if?". I never thought I'd get a lot of replies. In fact, I didn't think I would get any. Make a wish, toss coin in water, end of story. For those of you with better things to do than listen to my rants, I thank you for your time.

For those of you with a bit more time to kill, I'd like to continue thinking out loud, but unfortunately I'll have to do it another day. I've only got 4hrs to sleep before I wake up to go to work. I'd just like to say for now that I wasn't obsessing over RAC. I only mentioned it because that's what we got. I was obsessing over my ION being twice as "fast" as my Atom. Which I find fascinating...

[to be continued]

Profile Alex Storey
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jun 04
Posts: 554
Credit: 1,671,241
RAC: 631
Greece
Message 1116410 - Posted: 12 Jun 2011, 21:26:10 UTC
Last modified: 12 Jun 2011, 22:17:48 UTC

It's Sunday and I'm not feeling philosophical, at all. Having a hard few days at work (all is well, just very tiring) so this will be a quick reply. Bullet point style...

First though I'd like to apologize to Oz and say I'm actually glad you're a volunteer:) And no, of course that doesn't make your opinion less important. Yours or anyones for that matter. Thought you were a mod or someone from the project that didn't introduce themselves.

So yesterday I was reading DailyTech and read this:

http://www.dailytech.com/Digital+Black+Friday+First+Bitcoin+Depression+Hits/article21877.htm

Not knowing what a BitCoin is (it's just another pyramid scheme), I did a bit of searching. Mainly because in the article it mentions BitCoins can be generated with AMD cards. And as you might have guessed, anything GPU accelerated I find interesting ever since running cuda on Seti. Anyway, literally 5min later I found this:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Why_a_GPU_mines_faster_than_a_CPU

and this:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison

and this:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_rig

Now I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this... I'm using it as an example of what can be done.

Again I'm not stressing over RAC. If I live to make it to 60, I'm sure my $100 phone will take a week to do what, right now, has taken me years to accumulate in cobblestones. And hopefully it'll be able to do it unplugged. As Kurt Vonnegut loves to say, "So it goes".

Now there's a thought... a dedicated crunching phone.

Anyway, I agree with and/or understand pretty much everything you guys are saying. RAC depends on a trillion factors - check. Seti can't be seen endorsing nVidia - check. Seti is a science project and our focus should be on achieving our goal, not stressing over RAC - superdupercheck!!

So why am I still bugging you guys? Well I'll give you an example and hope you take the bait. What if I said, "How much is it costing me to run Seti?". Would you ask me if it's a laptop or a desktop? What proc? GPU or no GPU? What kind of RAM? Windows or Linux? Do I plan to run 24/7? A million other variables I can't imagine 'cause I'm not the kind of person that can build their own rig? Well it turns out the answer is as complicated as you want it to be. And believe it or not, there is a painfully simple and Boinc endorsed one:

http://boinc.berkeley.edu/wiki/Heat_and_energy_considerations

And it's good enough for me. I'm guessing that boinc realizes I (and every other average joe) live in fantasyland and that it might be a good idea to bring me down to earth. And it did. Because I didn't know the EU numbers. I only stumbled across this yesterday. After reading the BitCoin wiki (which I didn't, just scanned through it) I seemed to remember a Boinc wiki existed and went back to take a look. Unfortunately that was all I could find. Well this and that Ozzfan wasn't always l33t:) Just kiddin'

I realize alot of you guys are allergic to demands. So forget the whole thread for a moment and let me try over:

Say I want to download s@h. I google it and get to the website. There's no download button but I manage to find the link. Now I'm at a Boinc page. What? I download anyway, just because there's a tiny image of Seti next to it, so it should be ok. But my mind is still caught up with the fact I want to download seti, not something called boinc. Boinc ( sorry but I have to say this) is as complicated as a torrent program (which to most people is very complicated). Now who do you think is gonna read (the now grammatically correct I might add), "Note: if your computer is equipped with a Graphics Processing Unit (GPU)..."? I'm seriously (that would be Eric Cartman).

In 1999 when Seti got started world plus dog new a Pentium was better than a Celeron and that procs were measured (for better or for worse) in MHz + GHz. Laptops were non-existent and Seti Classic was a fun and easy program to run and people loved it. Jump cut to 2011. Hardly anyone has got a desktop anymore, no-one (you know what I mean) cares about proc specs anymore, no-one (again, you know what I mean) is playing Doom or Unreal or NBA or FIFA on their PCs anymore. Bottom line? Most people will tell you they don't need a GPU anymore. Not to mention Intel and AMD are getting exponentially better at integrated graphics... And now GPUs can do "math"? That's borderline science-fiction! Shouldn't a Seti/BOINC newcomer/enthusiast be informed? Maybe they'll choose to buy a laptop with a GPU... doubly so if they find out it'll accelerate their browsing too. Yeah but how do we inform the "little guy"? I don't pretend to know the answer to that.

And again, just thinking out loud...

1 · 2 · Next

Questions and Answers : Wish list : nVidia card list + RAC on SETI homepage, please!

Copyright © 2014 University of California