What no-ne has mentioned so far is the phenomenen where people are quite strongly atheist or agnostic for all of their lives, and then at the final knockings, they suddenly go all religious just to hedge their bets. Seen it many times.

I've been watching some George Carlin stuff as of late, and Mark called into question George's belief in God, to which I honestly had to think about for a second. I knew most of his routines were very venomous toward religion, but I thought he was still a believer, until I checked out some of his performances again.

Boy was I wrong! Ol' Georgy was most certainly Atheist most of his life. As we all know, he died back in 2008. Something tells me that he made no attempts to believe in God before his death and suddenly become all "religious" to hedge their bets. In fact, his last HBO performance just 4 months prior to his death seem to confirm that his Atheist beliefs were just as strong as ever.

The whole notion that every Atheist turns to religion in the hour of their death, I believe, is largely an invention of the believers and not necessarily indicative of reality. Does it happen? Sure. Is it frequent? I don't know. But I do know that there's quite a few Atheists out there, and they're growing in numbers. The more we let go of the idea of God, the more comfortable we will become with our own death and we won't need to lie to each other to make us feel better about it.

What no-ne has mentioned so far is the phenomenen where people are quite strongly atheist or agnostic for all of their lives, and then at the final knockings, they suddenly go all religious just to hedge their bets. Seen it many times.

how can i go suddenly religious if i don´t believe god or heaven or...?
i know that god or heaven etc does not and have never existed, and i wait you to prove otherwise.

i know that god or heaven etc does not and have never existed, and i wait you to prove otherwise.

I respect your belief but it is not my job to prove otherwise to you.

---

What no-ne has mentioned so far is the phenomenen where people are quite strongly atheist or agnostic for all of their lives, and then at the final knockings, they suddenly go all religious just to hedge their bets. Seen it many times.

how can i go suddenly religious if i don´t believe god or heaven or...?
i know that god or heaven etc does not and have never existed, and i wait you to prove otherwise.

I can't even prove that you exist in any particular form. You may be male or female; you may be an artificial intelligence program or resident of an insane asylum; a you may be a pot-smoking guitarist or a Jedi knight; you might be a group of hackers trying to look like a person. Even if I saw you face-to-face you could be something other than what you appear. I am satisfied that God exists and I am sorry that you don't believe, but that is something you have to decide for yourself.

In mathematics (logic) you can prove something by establishing certain logical premises--then you follow the consequences of those premises when you arrive at a contradiction or a paradox you know for sure that your original premise was false.

Let's try it.

God exists
There is only one true god
God is god
Christ is god
Allah is god
Vishnu is god
Odin is god
Zeus is god

Conclusion:

God does not exist or all but one of these are not god.( which is more likely)

I leave it to you to tell all the other believers that they have a false god.

Let's try again

God exists
God is omniscient
God is omnipotent
God hears entreaties and intervenes
God is all merciful
God does not stop killing of innocents

Therefore God is not all merciful

Conclusion; god does not exist or she does not possess the traits that are ascribed to her

I can't even prove that you exist in any particular form. You may be male or female; you may be an artificial intelligence program or resident of an insane asylum; a you may be a pot-smoking guitarist or a Jedi knight; you might be a group of hackers trying to look like a person. Even if I saw you face-to-face you could be something other than what you appear. I am satisfied that God exists and I am sorry that you don't believe, but that is something you have to decide for yourself.

i do, as you can see by looking my writings(kind of conversation, at least, you write and i answer), you can´t tell if i am human or computer etc, but i exist, and you have prove of that.
about god, you don´t have.

Cogito ergo sum !

Je pense donc je suis !

Penso dunque sono !!

Νομίζω ότι ως εκ τούτου, είμαι

Rene DesCartes

I can't even prove that you exist in any particular form. You may be male or female; you may be an artificial intelligence program or resident of an insane asylum; a you may be a pot-smoking guitarist or a Jedi knight; you might be a group of hackers trying to look like a person. Even if I saw you face-to-face you could be something other than what you appear. I am satisfied that God exists and I am sorry that you don't believe, but that is something you have to decide for yourself.

i do, as you can see by looking my writings(kind of conversation, at least, you write and i answer), you can´t tell if i am human or computer etc, but i exist, and you have prove of that.
about god, you don´t have.

i seem to be written whatever, proof was the word i meant.

What no-ne has mentioned so far is the phenomenen where people are quite strongly atheist or agnostic for all of their lives, and then at the final knockings, they suddenly go all religious just to hedge their bets. Seen it many times.

It's not unusual for someone who has enjoyed living life to wish to cling to the hope of continuing the journey afterward. Hope is certainly a strong constant for most humans, but I wouldn't conclude that because one has hope at death that somehow it is proof of spirituality.

Life is misery and suffering.
Let us hope reincarnation is a cruel lie or that the ledger indicates a karmic residue of 0 on this go around.

;)

As an atheist, I have never really understood the anger toward believers or believers anger toward atheists.

I was treated very poorly by the church I was born into. They tried to force me into shock aversion therapy on threats of excommunication and eternal damnation.

Despite that, I still love and respect my friends and family who are believers. If they ask me about my beliefs, I tell them. Otherwise I keep it quiet.

When a believer tries to engage me in a theological debate, I ask them two questions that usually quiets them down:
1. Is there anything I could say to you to convince you that god doesn't exist?
Answer: Usually no.
2. Why would you believe that my beliefs are so flimsy as to be changed by anything you might say?
Answer: Usually stunned silence.

That's as pushy as I have ever been. I don't push my beliefs on others, but it does piss me off when others push their beliefs on me. I don't care if you celebrate Christmas, Easter, Lent, Ramadan, or Samhain. I only get angry when others try to use public institutions (schools, courts, legislature) to force their beliefs on me or my children.

As an atheist, I have never really understood the anger toward believers or believers anger toward atheists.

I was treated very poorly by the church I was born into. They tried to force me into shock aversion therapy on threats of excommunication and eternal damnation.

Despite that, I still love and respect my friends and family who are believers. If they ask me about my beliefs, I tell them. Otherwise I keep it quiet.

When a believer tries to engage me in a theological debate, I ask them two questions that usually quiets them down:
1. Is there anything I could say to you to convince you that god doesn't exist?
Answer: Usually no.
2. Why would you believe that my beliefs are so flimsy as to be changed by anything you might say?
Answer: Usually stunned silence.

That's as pushy as I have ever been. I don't push my beliefs on others, but it does piss me off when others push their beliefs on me. I don't care if you celebrate Christmas, Easter, Lent, Ramadan, or Samhain. I only get angry when others try to use public institutions (schools, courts, legislature) to force their beliefs on me or my children.

good questions.

I have no anger towards atheists....
Why should I?
Just because my values and what I believe in does not coincide with yours?
So be it.

I might try to persuade you to think differently, but I am not gonna beat you over the head with it if you obviously are not open to considering it.

I do believe in a higher power. I happen to have been born a Catholic and was taught to call him God.
Others on this planet believe as I do. But were born into other religions and call him by a different name.

I can only tell you that my belief has given me some much needed solace and hope at times in my life when I dearly needed it.
If your non-belief does the same for you, you are entitled.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

I prayed to God on December 8th 2010 and asked God for help in my scientific work.

On December 29th 2010 God answered my prayer and revealed the whole universal book of science to me. I didn't ask for the whole universal book of science, but it appears thats what he gave me!

So in my opinion, to completely rule out prayer as a method of communicating with a higher power is a bad idea. It seems to have worked fairly well for me.

John.

---

I prayed to God on December 8th 2010 and asked God for help in my scientific work.

On December 29th 2010 God answered my prayer and revealed the whole universal book of science to me. I didn't ask for the whole universal book of science, but it appears thats what he gave me!

So in my opinion, to completely rule out prayer as a method of communicating with a higher power is a bad idea. It seems to have worked fairly well for me.

John.

Once the mysteries of the universe are all solved by you in a couple of years, feel free to remind us disbelievers of this book.
Some of us may take a moment to reconsider our position on prayer.

Of course, at some point in the next few years, you may have to come forward and retract some of your claims of devine intervention.

I'm willing to bet large that your book, and the strange language it's written in, will prove to be not what you think it is.

---

I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.

Once the mysteries of the universe are all solved by you in a couple of years, feel free to remind us disbelievers of this book.
Some of us may take a moment to reconsider our position on prayer.

Robert,
Thats a very profound statement you just made. Your actually admitting that if the evidence for a God was strong enough, you might reconsider your position on prayer!

If thats the case Robert, why not do what i did. Do it as a scientific experiment. Try praying as a science experiment!! See what data or results you can extract from your scientific praying experiment. But as with any science experiment, you must be willing to give the experiment a fair chance. If your biased toward there being absolutely no God, then your manipulating the results of your experiment.

So to do the praying experiment properly, you would have to be willing in your heart to try and not fight against the prayer. You would need to go away somewhere quite where you are alone with your thoughts. You would need to relax and almost meditate as you start.

There would be no point in asking for something that's impossible for a higher power to grant to you. No point asking for a lottery win, its not going to happen. Or asking for a pay rise in work or for Barack Obama to walk through your front door.

You could pray for something simple. Lets say you always fight with your next door neighbour, your brother or sister, your wife or your mother. Try pray and ask that the next time you meet that person, that God will help you and the other person not to fight. That's something that might be possible.

Robert you have to think about it like this. If i'm right, what God, or whoever it is, is doing is "influence at a distance". Its not magic, its physics, a type of quantum mechanics "action at a distance". If the effect is there, he, God, is influencing people through a type of telepathy. He might be influencing peoples behaviour. But you must be willing to allow it to happen or it will never work! Its also similar to hypnosis which is a type of mind control. But the effect is very real!

Once your alone in a quite place, and relaxed for a few minutes, start your prayer with something like "Hello God, or whoever might be listening to me". Try being honest and talk to him telling him honestly how you have felt over the last number of years about prayer. Tell him your sorry for not trying this before but nobody really explained to you how to pray. But tell him you are willing to try a short prayer because you want it in your heart. Ask for inner strength to help not to fight with your friend or brother or sister or whatever. You could even say something funny like telling God that stupid old Johnney Guinness told you to do this. And that Johnney Guinness must be mad if he's doing this kind of thing as a science experiment. Talk openly to him. Then don't forget to hang up the phone with God to finish by saying something like "Thank you God for listening, and thank you for any help you can give me".

Of course, at some point in the next few years, you may have to come forward and retract some of your claims of devine intervention.

I'm willing to bet large that your book, and the strange language it's written in, will prove to be not what you think it is.

Robert if it turns out in the end that i'm wrong, i will gladly admit i'm wrong, and i will apologise to you guys. But Robert if you could see the volume of research i have compiled at this stage, and the depth of the science behind the research, you would start praying too. Remember Robert, i was also a non believer up until i discovered this stuff.

Joan Osborne - What if God was one of us;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4CRkpBGQzU

God also works through other people if you let him Robert! God can change your life if you let him!

John.

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Johnney,

Nice try, but if I remember correctly, Robert Waite doesn't believe in God (I have RW blocked, thus I don't know what his current position might be), so it is unlikely he would try your experiment. But even if he did, any success he had would just be chalked up to something like "focusing" his mind, and not divine help.

Personally, I believe in both God and the power of prayer, but I don't believe that non-believers can be changed by external means. In your case (and mine as well) it was our own experiences and understanding of them that brought us to our current states of belief in God, though I have to think that no two believers have exactly the same level of understanding or degree of faith.

Qui-Gon,
I've been going around these SETI forums for the last few months saying unusual things and continuously making reference to God and religion. As you know, all kinds of people hang out here and they have very different beliefs.

I was raised a Catholic but fell away from religion from about 13 years of age. But really, i just never gave it any thought. Its really easy to just accept Darwinian evolution at face value because it very logical.

I never had any reason to question human evolution. I firmly believed evolution was correct, it was scientific. Why would anyone question something that was 100% proven by scientists!! You would have to be mad to even contemplate questioning the evidence for human evolution!!

Qui-Gon, well i was DEAD WRONG to simply trust the evidence for human evolution!!

Its only when i went and carried out my own scientific investigation that i found out the truth. Yes, unbelievable as it may seem, SCIENTISTS DO TELL LIES!!! The journals publish the lies because the process of peer-review is massively flawed.

See in a way, the evolutionary scientists are not really lying when they publish articles in journals. It more like they cherry-pick the bits of the science results they want to prove their point. This goes on for decades at a time, each generation of scientist building on the work of the man before him. Until it reaches a stage where you start to really believe its true.

Well thats the flaw. I found out the real truth that God is a scientist and really did come here from another planet that orbits a nearby star and he populated this planet with us human beings. The truth is, its just like it says in the Bible! God, the scientist, clearly wrote this down in the book of Genesis and explained that he was NOT going to give us the book of scientific knowledge for our own good. Because God is a scientist, he new that we stand a better chance without the nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. Thats why he kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. Quote from God in the book of Genesis - "You will die if you eat the apple from the tree of knowledge". And true enough, for all the rest of the stories in the Bible, he never gives you a scientific explaination for how he does all the miricles. He just askes you to "believe it" because its true.

John.

---

Mr. Guinness;

I have tried the simple prayer many, many times. And it does not work. Believe me, my prayer is as simple as a prayer could be.

It would not directly benefit me and it was for the benefit of another. It did not involve money, health, career, love or the many other of this ilk. It basically was a prayer for Grace and Peace of Mind for this person. Pure and Simple.

Alas, GOD did not help.

Anyways, I have read almost all of Richard Dawkins' books, along with other atheist Authors and I would have to agree with them.

I bought Joan Osbourne's CD with the song "What if GOD was one of Us" soon after I first heard it. Nice tune. Quite a heart/mind grabber.

But, GOD is not on this Earth and Not Helping from afar.

I Truly Wish GOD answered The Simplest of Prayers. I pray HE does.

iWorm 'em.

Darwin's Worm,
You have to want it to work. And most of all, you have to allow it to happen, its in your mind!! It sounds to me like you blocked it! A hypnotist can't hypnotise someone that will not allow it to happen!

Most people will simply never understand. No more than you understand how and why quantum mechanics is the very root of all science. And when you think you understand it, you don't, and either do i. Its confused some of the best scientists the world has ever seen.

John.

---

It sounds to me like you blocked it!

Yes Mr. Guinness, it is possible I have. I thought I was being sincere in My Prayer. And believed I was hoping for zero for me and all for the other person.
Again, a simple request/prayer and one which could be easily granted.

One where Testimony would never be given for any kind of GOD/Prayer cred. Oh well.

Why should not a supreme being be female

My first ex-wife was named Chris and sHE was a very attractive red-head with nice green eyes.

It matters not if GOD is HE/sHE or a ball of Plasma. As long as IT makes a Prayer come about.

iWorm 'em.