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Profile John Cropper
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Message 43652 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:35:26 UTC - in response to Message 43646.

> Ah yes John, that old "argument" that "brown people's lives aren't worth as
> much as white Americans lives" again. No wonder the world is disgusted with
> the USA. It's really quite a shame, after 9/11 the world rallied around the
> US --- but the dimwitted RepugliKKKans squandered that good will pretty
> quick!

Nice try, but you came up empty on that fishing trip. I'll leave you to your wild assumptions [about the proclivities/pursuits/leanings of various individuals here], since you derive some sort of warped, purile entertainment from it [much as Guido does from posting mindless drivel].

> >You made an incorrect assumption based on a one-liner, which makes you no
> >better than those you criticize
>
> oh yeah, gee, because I pointed out your brain-dead hypocrisies and idiocies,
> that makes me a "terrorist!"

I didn't call you a terrorist; you made that assumption based on your [mis]interpretation of what I wrote.

The US is -not- GWB just because a majority voted for him, any more than Great Britain is (or was) Neville Chamberlain or Margaret Thatcher or even John Major. Making assumptions about everyone based on one incident, or one person is short-sighted and empowers those who would harness such short-sightedness to push their own agenda.

Rabid hatred drove much of the election process here, which is really sad. Very little time was spent discussing the future; most of it was spent criticizing [and dwelling on] the past. This served to polarize those whose short-sightedness was then harnessed to bash one another. I'm sure you and your cronies will agree (as I do) that the 'terrorists' out there if nothing else, had a good laugh over a process they would've resolved in five minutes, using a sword or gun.

If you prefer that method, I'm sure someone out there in the world will be more than happy to mete it out to you, in spite of your protests. I for one prefer the ballot box, even if it doesn't go my way. Don't misinterpret that to mean I won't fight like hell to defend it, however.


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Message 43655 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:39:39 UTC - in response to Message 43652.

The "ballot box" is a laughingly, appallingly poor "corrector" when it's made by Diebold. Again -- the '04 US election was about rallying the xenophobes & homophobes and religious zealots. It's a psychotic "fringe" (although is it really a "fringe" now?) that you tacitly support by your apathy.

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Message 43657 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:51:11 UTC - in response to Message 43642.

> Lose any friends to terrorist acts (perpetrated by radical 'Muslims') lately?
> If not, then you may not realize that though it was ill-planned, Iraq dragged
> much of their [criminals] resources to defend their fanatacism over there,
> rather than in -your- back yard.

This is so UNTRUE John.
Lose any friends to American bombing (perpetrated by radical Falcon) lately?
If not, then you may not realize that though it was ill-planned, The US dragged
much of their [criminals] resources to defend their Financial interrest and
to take a revenge over there...

> That's what some call a "successful failure" in that the war is not really
> being won, but at least lives are not being lost on US soil. (Being the
> demagogue you are, you'll likely omit the "successful".)

"but at least lives are not being lost on US soil"
Exactly what I have been saying. Terrorist has attacked us but hey !
what if we bring the problem elsewhere...It's the US they wanted to
attack, not Spain, Italy or Turkey.

Profile John Cropper
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Message 43658 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:52:08 UTC - in response to Message 43647.

> The thugs you are referring to are on their land, they were born there.

Like the 19 who played "park the 747 INSIDE the building" at 500 mph? {yes I stray from the point, but for a reason]. Dissatisfaction with "one's [perceived] plight often looks for someone else to blame, often with very nasty results...

Given the opportunity, Hussein had the money to finance similar operations in Europe, but he chose instead to bribe the UN.

> They have the "right" to defend what THEY consider to be good for them.

But how far is too far? I guess that depends (again) on one's perspective...

> In the current case, The "insurgent" are fighting the US army who ILLIGALY
> invade their sovereign country. I would do the same (and you too) if a super
> power invade my country one day.

[What a set-up!] Go ask your grandparents about the Nazis....

> All aid organisations present in Irak were
> doing their job with success before the US invasion.

That depends on your definition of 'success'. Saddam was bribing the UN to look the other way while he funnelled money to his pet projects: killing his political enemies and burying their bodies in mass graves and funding the overthrow of the Israeli government by montarily supporting terrorist activity in Palestine and Israel.

> And now are you saying
> that the 100000 victims in Irak were all been killed by those thugs ?
> MISCONCEPTION !!! Most of them were victims of US air strikes.

Don't forget your buddy Hussein and his pals in the Baath party, who are still roaming free...

> What do you
> expect when you launch a cruise missile in the middle of a city ? Even if the
> target were "presumabaly" terrorist target, don't you think it also kills
> innocent ? American just don't want to see the truth, Bush has blood of
> thousands of innocent on his hands. ****PERIOD****

You're just mad because French and German companies won't be getting the reconstruction $$$. You don't give a damn about the lives any more than the US administration does...

> lol...Isn't it what your president is currently doing ?

Perhaps, but he's not playing 'pin the 747 on the building'...

> Are you saying that the Kyoto treaty was economicaly good for all the
> countries
> who signed it ? Don't you think it will cost Canada some money to respect the
> environment ? Those who signed the treaty did it for our futur, for the futur
> of our children, for the earth. The US just can't see the point in doing
> that,
> it does not bring any economical benifit, and it does not help in controlling
> the world ******PERIOD******

One volcanic hiccup will do more "damage" to the environment in five minutes than all the greenhouses gases of all the manufacturing and power plants of the world can put out in a year. While I'm not entirely insensitive to what is being done to the environment, we'd better settle the 'conflicts' in play first, or cockroaches will be running the show (after homo sapiens nukes itself into oblivion).

Then when your friend ET finally DOES show up, it'll be with a broom and dust pan!


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Message 43659 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:57:35 UTC - in response to Message 43645.
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 19:59:09 UTC

IGNITED STATES

In the link above, posted by John, I really like this comment.

THESE same idiots still believe Saddam was behind 9/11. They voted for Bush
for his moral stance. Never mind that we've killed 100,000 innocent Iraqis.
Whatever happened to "Thou shall not kill"? Oh well. As long as we Americans
can still consume 25 per cent of the world's resources everything will be just
fine! Who cares if we're ******* all over the rest of the world? We've got
Jesus!

Justin Mayer, Santa Cruz, California

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Message 43661 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 19:58:42 UTC - in response to Message 43648.
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 19:58:59 UTC

> err, John, Britain HAS faced terrorism before. The answer wasn't
> indiscriminately bombing & invading Ireland...

What would be the point? You'd gain what, a few hundred kilometers of really cold and windy real estate, a large number of really surly drunks that talk funny and a buttload of potatoes...

> The "ballot box" is a laughingly, appallingly poor "corrector" when it's
> made by Diebold. Again -- the '04 US election was about rallying the
> xenophobes & homophobes and religious zealots. It's a psychotic "fringe"
> (although is it really a "fringe" now?) that you tacitly support by your
> apathy.

It is true that there was enough 'fringe' participation in this past election to border an Afghan (pun intended) big enough to slipcover Massachusetts (again, pun intended) with, but the Democrats in trying to rally their OWN amalgam of interest groups forgot that the fools on the OTHER side of the aisle were listening.

As for the 'apathy', we'll have to wait and see if the pattern of 1968/1972 repeats itself in '08. The only difference then will be that neither Bush nor Nixon (now deceased, but still politically active ;o>) can run for re-election.
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Message 43665 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 20:13:25 UTC - in response to Message 43657.

> This is so UNTRUE John.

Not really, since Paris is pretty much intact. Based on intelligence gathered from this ill-planned police action, several plot in Europe have been broken up and over a hundred arrested in the last few years. The remainder are filtering south, to fight in Iraq, Africa, or Saudi Arabia, where the 'real action' is.

> Lose any friends to American bombing (perpetrated by radical Falcon) lately?
> If not, then you may not realize that though it was ill-planned, The US
> dragged
> much of their [criminals] resources to defend their Financial interrest and
> to take a revenge over there...

I'm not arguing with the fact that it was ill-planned. The Neo-conservative wing of the Republican party that convinced GWB it would be a quick "in-and-out" is now seeing their plans of world conquest unravel right before their eyes. Their "new world order" where the US is the center of the known universe is quite frightening to behold, to be sure and they should be feared by everyone, including the Americans who voted -for- GWB.

> > That's what some call a "successful failure" in that the war is not
> really
> > being won, but at least lives are not being lost on US soil. (Being the
> > demagogue you are, you'll likely omit the "successful".)
>
> "but at least lives are not being lost on US soil"
> Exactly what I have been saying. Terrorist has attacked us but hey !
> what if we bring the problem elsewhere...It's the US they wanted to
> attack, not Spain, Italy or Turkey.

Radical elements have been attacking Turkey, Spain and Italy since long before you were born and fights over race, property, religion, economics or any other number of foolish concepts will continue long after we're all gone.

A handful people are still alive on this planet who could (and still may) wreak some REAL hell that could rack up some serious body count in the coming years on all continents, not just here or there. GWB is not one of them (although one of them I'm thinking of IS on his staff, egging him on).

You may see things change as GWB's cabinet unravels during the opening days of his second term. Whether it's for better or worse, only time will tell...


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Message 43667 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 20:22:16 UTC - in response to Message 43632.

> Just because I find it mildly cathartic to justly lambaste moronic right-wing
> Americans, doesn't mean my arguments are invalid. Words are softer than the
> bombs you dopes love to drop on innocent civilians.
>

Carl, Carl, Carl:

That is a pretty lame excuse for the personal insults you have so liberally (ironic use of the word) thrown about. Go to the Flame of the Day thread if you just want to vent. Here, where some who believe as you do actually back up their assertions, you are just pissing people off; and I must therefore assume that is your purpose, rather than constructive discourse.
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Message 43669 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 20:28:54 UTC - in response to Message 43652.
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 21:30:28 UTC

I think Americans need to get out more! Out of there own country that is and discover what the rest of the world is really like. If the USA is the BEACON of FREEDOM in the world then GOD HELP US ALL!

America is the most powerful country in the world and yet its people are the most scared in the world. George Bush wants you to be scared. While your scared he can do anything he likes in the name of AMERICAN SECURITY.

"you have NOTHING to FEAR except FEAR itself"

Americans have elected Georgie to be their president for the next 4 terrifying years and they will be terrifying he'll see to that. If anyone told you that they didn't like the man you had elected and was going to invade (after a long period of bombardment and missile attacks) your country to affect "regime change" (for your own good of course, afterall he is a tyrant with the blood of thousands on his hands)how would you react?

Who gave the USA the right to choose who should lead sovereign states? Please don't give me the BS about how much better of the Iraqis are now Saddam has been removed from power. If the US removed Saddam to improve the lot of the Iraqi people why aren't they doing the same for other downtrodden masses around the world, oh that's right, they DON'T have any OIL or other VALUABLE resources.

The world is a more dangerous place, more dangerous because of the USA.

Carl Christensen is right about Britain having been the victim of numerous terrorist attacks in recent history, you may know the organisation, its called the IRA and guess where it got a lot of its funding from (despite protests by the UK to the US to stop fund raising) the United States of America and the organisation was called NORAID.

There is NO WAR ON TERROR, that is only a SMOKE SCREEN to justify American Government activities. The British learnt a long time ago that you can't beat terrorism, the enemy doesn't wear a uniform, there are no concentration of troops, they don't hold any territory, they have no permanent bases, most of the people who belong to terrorist organisations don't know more than 6 other members, they mix with and are supported by the native population.

Maybe someone should tell Georgie, don't bother he already knows!

Carl also drew a comparison between the Nazis and this US Administration, you would do well to listen.

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Message 43671 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 20:30:16 UTC - in response to Message 43658.
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 22:22:45 UTC

> Like the 19 who played "park the 747 INSIDE the building" at 500 mph? {yes I
> stray from the point, but for a reason]. Dissatisfaction with "one's
> [perceived] plight often looks for someone else to blame, often with very
> nasty results...

Was these guys Irakis ?

> [What a set-up!] Go ask your grandparents about the Nazis....

How dare you talk about my grand parents !!! They died over there fighting
the Nazi (I am Canadian remember ?) As for my French "part" my wife's parents
where in the resistance, her grand father died by attacking a Nazi train
convoy. And please get some information about WWII
1) the french surendered because there was Nazi amoung the government.
Millions of french have died in the resistance.
2) Americans often bring the memory of WWII, I'll remind them that if
they got involved in it it was because of pearl harbour. 3 years after
hitler had invaded Poland.
3) If the US had been bordering germany at that time you would't have
been able to "liberaty" anyone.

> Don't forget your buddy Hussein and his pals in the Baath party, who are still
> roaming free...

lol !!! Hussein and his pals are not my buddy. Are you saying they're the
one who killed those 100000 civilians ?

> You're just mad because French and German companies won't be getting the
> reconstruction $$$. You don't give a damn about the lives any more than the US
> administration does...

Amazing... Do you really believe I am mad at Bush because French don't have
rebuilding contracts ? I don't give a dam Fucking shit about that. Now
take the plane and go to Berlin and Paris and talk to people on the steets
about what you've just said. You will never had felt so ashame in your life.

> Perhaps, but he's not playing 'pin the 747 on the building'...

What's the difference ? Do you think they would have highjacked a commercial
plane if they had the money to have cruise missile, B52, etc...
Those terrorist have killed 3000 inocent civilians using their money,
Bush is killing Hundreds of thousands using yours...

> One volcanic hiccup will do more "damage" to the environment in five minutes
> than all the greenhouses gases of all the manufacturing and power plants of
> the world can put out in a year. While I'm not entirely insensitive to what is
> being done to the environment, we'd better settle the 'conflicts' in play
> first, or cockroaches will be running the show (after homo sapiens nukes
> itself into oblivion).

Yea right, Volcano. Very bad thing. Well we woudn't be here to talk about
environment if there was no volcano. These are not human made pollution we
just can't do anything about it. Your comment is really paradoxal, Bring a
good gestion of the environment, give food and potable water for everyone,
I'll remind you that 1/3 of the planet do not have potable water and a child
dies from that every 4 second, but anyway with a fair share of earth ressources
there would be no need to Nukes eachothers. Can't you look at the problem at
it's bases. Terrorist terrorist terrorist !!! Why there are terrorist in the
first place ? That is the only valuable question to me.

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Message 43672 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 20:30:35 UTC - in response to Message 43667.

> Carl, Carl, Carl:
>
> That is a pretty lame excuse for the personal insults you have so liberally
> (ironic use of the word) thrown about. Go to the Flame of the Day thread if
> you just want to vent. Here, where some who believe as you do actually back
> up their assertions, you are just pissing people off; and I must therefore
> assume that is your purpose, rather than constructive discourse.

Tom, Tom, Tom: :o)

Liberals don't NEED to back up their arguments; their accusations are gospel, remember? [ducking]
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Message 43675 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 20:34:05 UTC - in response to Message 43655.

> The "ballot box" is a laughingly, appallingly poor "corrector" when it's made
> by Diebold. Again -- the '04 US election was about rallying the xenophobes
> & homophobes and religious zealots. It's a psychotic "fringe" (although
> is it really a "fringe" now?) that you tacitly support by your apathy.
>
>

Do you have any evidence that Diebold voting machines did not work? Otherwise that's a cheap shot.

And as for rallying the vote, the Democrats rallied the "Bushophobes" with lies and bias (Michael Moore) and personal attacks like YOUR statement, referring to the "Bush klan and the Nazi's --- racism, xenophobia, bigotry, appeals to 'war on terrorism' and 'family values' etc."
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Message 43681 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 20:47:17 UTC - in response to Message 43669.

> I think Americans need to get out more! Out of there own country that is and
> discover what the rest of the world is really like. If the USA is the BEACON
> of FREEDOM in the world then GOD HELP US ALL!

Agree 100% with you post

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Message 43686 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 20:55:55 UTC

I guess we all needed a break...

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Message 43687 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 21:00:59 UTC - in response to Message 43667.

Tom & John: The liberals in this thread have backed up what they are saying with examples of the right-wing lies, and analogies to the Nazi's. Dumb Americans have unfortunately turned the world, even moderates I know here at Oxford U and throughout Europe, into turning against the US.

All you have is rhetoric that "Iraq was a terrorist nation" and "liberals are terrorist sympathizers" and whines that I'm being "insulting" (as if you hypocrites haven't posted insulting things time and again). At "best" you whine that "well at least we're just killing Iraqi's & Turks & Spanish and terrorists haven't hit the US since 9/11." Thereby proving that you don't consider anything but American lives as worthy of saving. I think ultimately that is what disgusts so many throughout the world --- they have long thought that Americans only cared about themselves --- with the re-selection of Bush based on lies & fear & hypocrisy & xenophobia --- it is now confirmed!


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Message 43689 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 21:01:38 UTC - in response to Message 43681.

> > I think Americans need to get out more! Out of there own country that is
> and
> > discover what the rest of the world is really like. If the USA is the
> BEACON
> > of FREEDOM in the world then GOD HELP US ALL!
>
> Agree 100% with you post
>

Your assumption is faulty: I have been all over the world and made it a point to try and meet and talk to local people. Don't assume that any of those who disagree with you are ignorant. I think you need to get to know (really know) more people whose views you disagree with--if you are an example of a knowlegeable liberal-minded activist then, in your own words, "GOD HELP US ALL!"
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Message 43693 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 21:09:38 UTC - in response to Message 43689.

> Your assumption is faulty: I have been all over the world and made it a point
> to try and meet and talk to local people. Don't assume that any of those who

yeah right, there's a term for your sort that "try and meet and talk to local people" --- "THE UGLY AMERICAN"
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Message 43694 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 21:13:52 UTC - in response to Message 43645.
Last modified: 6 Nov 2004, 21:24:04 UTC

> Many people on BOTH sides of the argument (in the link above) are missing the
> point that if the terrorists win, peoples' right to argue their point will be
> suddenly extinguished, probably at the business end of a sword...

John, the point you are missing is that terrorist will always win.
What do you think ! Capturing Osama, removing the Taliban, put Sadam
in jail, etc will stop terrorism ?

Nobody choose where he is born, or what advantage his country has over
others, You have the chance to live in a country that consume about
40% of total world ressources. What would you be if your country had
nothing, if your brothers and sisters were the victims of opression
"approved" by another country that has everything ?
I bet all I have that you would have hanger in your heart, you could
even be a "terrorist".

The war against terror is the most ridiculous concept I've ever heard.
You kill one today, there will be ten at your doorstep tomorrow. It's
not like a football game where you win or loose, a war on terror using
terror will only results in loosers.

Instead of fighting terror with guns, why not start to fight inegality
and injustice for a try ? Bombing and killing islamic nation will just give
them more reason to hate what you represent for them.

Isn't it what the catholic religion says ? I find it rather pathetics
that bush has been re-lected mainly by religious peoples, and for moral
reasons. It just ain't right.

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Message 43695 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 21:15:30 UTC - in response to Message 43687.

> Tom & John: The liberals in this thread have backed up what they are
> saying with examples of the right-wing lies, and analogies to the Nazi's.
> Dumb Americans have unfortunately turned the world, even moderates I know here
> at Oxford U and throughout Europe, into turning against the US.
>
> All you have is rhetoric that "Iraq was a terrorist nation" and "liberals are
> terrorist sympathizers" and whines that I'm being "insulting" (as if you
> hypocrites haven't posted insulting things time and again). At "best" you
> whine that "well at least we're just killing Iraqi's & Turks & Spanish
> and terrorists haven't hit the US since 9/11." Thereby proving that you don't
> consider anything but American lives as worthy of saving. I think ultimately
> that is what disgusts so many throughout the world --- they have long thought
> that Americans only cared about themselves --- with the re-selection of Bush
> based on lies & fear & hypocrisy & xenophobia --- it is now
> confirmed!

TRUE SOOOOOOOOOOOO TRUE

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Message 43704 - Posted: 6 Nov 2004, 21:32:11 UTC - in response to Message 43689.

I'm seeing this new term kicking around all over news and commentary:

+tipping point+

Evidently human effort in diverse fields of endeavor is making a strong push to get all sorts of things to this magic place where, once reached, well -hell, then everythings going to get alot better or alot worse- not sure which.

Once the US gets there in Fallujah whoever their enemy is now will give up
Once the Mars rover tires get wet- there it is
Once Arafat and Fidel finally die- two more choice ones
Once Bush starts appointing new Supremes
Once Alaska's Refuges are open to oil drilling
Once the elections are over in the new Iraq
Once this gay dispute is silenced by a constitutional ammendment
Once the temperature of the Atlantic increases to...
Once the level of CO2 emissions reaches...
There's alot more of these points and they're all teeter-tottering ready to tip.

We can only hope they all dont tip simultaneously or we're all f**cked without a kiss...cc

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