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Message 40466 - Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 2:04:59 UTC
Last modified: 31 Dec 2004, 6:12:07 UTC

THREAD CLOSED

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Message 40468 - Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 2:08:43 UTC
Last modified: 27 Oct 2004, 2:09:43 UTC

Touch screen voting machines in Florida

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Message 40477 - Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 2:45:05 UTC
Last modified: 27 Oct 2004, 3:29:30 UTC

Bush, Kerry Trade National Security Barbs

New Study Finds Media Favored Kerry in First Half of October

60 MINS PLANNED BUSH MISSING EXPLOSIVES STORY FOR ELECTION EVE

Shock Jock Stern Crosses Swords with FCC's Powell, [audio tape] time index 32:14

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Message 40482 - Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 3:10:27 UTC

Tom, forget about WMD, It was known that there wasn't any, and the troops
never searched to find any. In fact there was some, known by all, but the
US troops forgot to protect it. They didn't forgot to protect the pipe lines
though.

You have a selective memory: the troops all wore chemical/biological protective gear because they believed there were WMD!

God! bush is and had always been in oil business, don't you guys makes the
link. Same in Afganistan, 9/11 been the best reasons to go there, put a
puppet in order to finally sign agreement for the Caspian sea pipe lines.
Do you really believe it was to remove the taliban ? HAHAHA what the US did
when they took control of the contry ? nothing. Bush even made business with
them.

His family has been in the oil business: in America, you are not convicted for what others in your family have done--would you like to be responsible for your father's sins? Your statement is irrelevant, and it assumes the President is acting merely for money--that ignores the history of this conflict and WHO STARTED IT.

This is all about oil !!! It has nothing to do with terrorist. Bush war
on terror is working... It made american scared so he could do what he wants
for the bush familly and friends interrests. Bush is not working for the good
of americans peoples, but for his own and those who are doing business with, the saudis.

And what about all the treaty the US has violate since 9/11 ?
The Abu Prisons, the cuban prison of shame, where people are there just
because they were dressed like bin laden, Transfer of prisoneer, etc.
The list is very very long.

What treaty? The Geneva conventions? It has been pretty well established that they do not apply to criminal terrorists, who are not members of established national armies.

I don't know what kind of information you have in the states, are the media
controlled ? Ten's of Thousands of innocent people died for nothing because
him, Irak has never posed a threat to the US, none a single american never
been killed by Irakis before he invaded Irak. Now those Irakis, people who
are born there, on THEIR land are fighting the invadors, but the media calls
them insurgent. How pathetics is that. Could you just please understand that
your army has attacked that country !

The media here (mostly) hate Bush, but even they can not get away with the false information you have falmed me with in your post..

In Canada, France, Britain, Germany, Spain, Norway, name them, bush would
never ever ever be reelected. He would be kicked out by a majority of 90%
I just don't understand how bush could still be at 50% in the polls. Polls
that are false anyway... The american polls takes people randomly, it does
not represent anything. In Europe the polls reflect the reality of the
population.

When Canada, France, Britain, Germany, Spain, or Norway lose 3,000 innocent civilians in an UNPROVOKED act of murder, then maybe they might see Bush's actions differently. We came to the aid of France, Britain, and other European countries when they were being attacked . . . where were YOU, after our disasterous attack? Complaining about mistreatment of murderers and terrorists.

How is this possible. Could it be that 50% of american are as stupid, arrogant
and blind as he is ? Could it be that 50% of americans has the same cowboy
mentallity of we have the biggest army, we are the best, our way of life is
the best and we do what we want, even if our best friends (Canada, France, etc)
says it is wrong, because it is wrong. Could it be that 50% of americans
are so unaducated that they can't make the difference between arabs, muslims ?
Could it be that 50% of americans never asked themselves why they have been
attacked on 9/11. This mentality won't make it in a long run, it just can't
continue like that. I wish all americans could ear what the world think of
them, its a shame.

I hear what the world thinks, and it's a shame that they don't stand up to the real criminals here--who behead civilians for the crime of building Iraq's power system, and kidnap the female Iraqi head of CARE..

And stop spending billions of dollars for the war on terror. Its useless !
(except for the war industries...lol) Any intelligent will tell thet guided
missiles, B52, etc could not do anything to stop terrorism. The only solution
is to start respect other, and not only see the world as a business oportunity.

We will, and should, spend what it takes to make the world (including you ungrateful whiners) safe again. Don't you worry about our spending, even though you will benefit..

I have to stop here, this subject really gets me out of my mind. I use to calm
down by thinking that the other 50% of american could make the difference one day.

That was my flame of the day.

Here's my flame in return..


____________

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Message 40488 - Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 3:48:23 UTC - in response to Message 40482.
Last modified: 27 Oct 2004, 3:51:00 UTC

Finally- overcoming years of blocked initiatives and federal interference, a state of the union gets it on the ballot to completely decriminalize marijuana, produce it, package it, tax it, and distribute it like any other commodity to adults. It had to be Alaska, The only place left in the US where personal freedom is serious business.

Alaskans for sane marijuana policy



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Message 40615 - Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 14:09:17 UTC - in response to Message 40482.

> Tom, forget about WMD, It was known that there wasn't any, and the troops
> never searched to find any. In fact there was some, known by all, but the
> US troops forgot to protect it. They didn't forgot to protect the pipe lines
> though.
>
> You have a selective memory: the troops all wore chemical/biological
> protective gear because they believed there were WMD!


The soldiers did wore protective gear because their commender officer told them
there could have been a chemical attacks. The commender officer got that information
from his superior, who got it from the army general, who got it from the president,
who got it from the CIA. But the CIA have been manipulated by the white house.
By the way, wich country has the biggest stock of WMD is this part of the world ?
Israel. Wich country acts like terrorist over there by occupying palestinian land,
removed all their rights, etc ? Israel. But US is supporting this. that's how and where
it all started.

> God! bush is and had always been in oil business, don't you guys makes the
> link. Same in Afganistan, 9/11 been the best reasons to go there, put a
> puppet in order to finally sign agreement for the Caspian sea pipe lines.
> Do you really believe it was to remove the taliban ? HAHAHA what the US did
> when they took control of the contry ? nothing. Bush even made business with
> them.

> His family has been in the oil business: in America, you are not convicted
> for what others in your family have done--would you like to be responsible for
> your father's sins? Your statement is irrelevant, and it assumes the
> President is acting merely for money--that ignores the history of this
> conflict and WHO STARTED IT.


"that ignores the history of this conflict and WHO STARTED IT"
Yea good question, who started it ? The Afgans ? Irak ? France ? lol
A international terrorist has attecked the US on 9/11. Alomost all of
them where Saudis. God ! what country you would have invaded if the
highjackers had been Indonesians ?

> This is all about oil !!! It has nothing to do with terrorist. Bush war
> on terror is working... It made american scared so he could do what he wants
> for the bush familly and friends interrests. Bush is not working for the good
> of americans peoples, but for his own and those who are doing business with,
> the saudis.
>
> And what about all the treaty the US has violate since 9/11 ?
> The Abu Prisons, the cuban prison of shame, where people are there just
> because they were dressed like bin laden, Transfer of prisoneer, etc.
> The list is very very long.
>
> What treaty? The Geneva conventions? It has been pretty well established
> that they do not apply to criminal terrorists, who are not members of
> established national armies.


established national armies !!!!!???? Irak didn't have national army. What the irakis
should have done ? sit and watch. They deffend their land and their interrest with what
they got. Now, ere you telling me that all those in abu and cuban prison had commited
acts of "criminal terrorist" Where is court of justice ? prove to the world that all these
guys has done that. Why is international instence like red cross and others never had
access to these prisons ?

> I don't know what kind of information you have in the states, are the media
> controlled ? Ten's of Thousands of innocent people died for nothing because
> him, Irak has never posed a threat to the US, none a single american never
> been killed by Irakis before he invaded Irak. Now those Irakis, people who
> are born there, on THEIR land are fighting the invadors, but the media calls
> them insurgent. How pathetics is that. Could you just please understand that
> your army has attacked that country !
>
> The media here (mostly) hate Bush, but even they can not get away with the
> false information you have falmed me with in your post..


False information. I would rather call it facts that you just don't want to see.

> In Canada, France, Britain, Germany, Spain, Norway, name them, bush would
> never ever ever be reelected. He would be kicked out by a majority of 90%
> I just don't understand how bush could still be at 50% in the polls. Polls
> that are false anyway... The american polls takes people randomly, it does
> not represent anything. In Europe the polls reflect the reality of the
> population.
>
> When Canada, France, Britain, Germany, Spain, or Norway lose 3,000 innocent
> civilians in an UNPROVOKED act of murder, then maybe they might see Bush's
> actions differently. We came to the aid of France, Britain, and other
> European countries when they were being attacked . . . where were YOU, after
> our disasterous attack? Complaining about mistreatment of murderers and
> terrorists.


False, you came to the aid of Europe when YOU have been attacked by the Japanese.
3 years after the Germans had invaded Poland. And anyway it was another America
then. I am sorry but Canada and France did and still participate in "war on terror"
Canada IS in Afganistan. France IS in Afganistan they have a small amount of elite
force 200 searching for Bin Laden. But the Irak invasion was bullshit and had nothing
to do with 9/11 All world leader knew it, All world leader knew it was a bad idea
and it was. Look at Irak now. Perhaps you just can't see the truth like your President?

> How is this possible. Could it be that 50% of american are as stupid,
> arrogant
> and blind as he is ? Could it be that 50% of americans has the same cowboy
> mentallity of we have the biggest army, we are the best, our way of life is
> the best and we do what we want, even if our best friends (Canada, France,
> etc)
> says it is wrong, because it is wrong. Could it be that 50% of americans
> are so unaducated that they can't make the difference between arabs, muslims
> ?
> Could it be that 50% of americans never asked themselves why they have been
> attacked on 9/11. This mentality won't make it in a long run, it just can't
> continue like that. I wish all americans could ear what the world think of
> them, its a shame.
>
> I hear what the world thinks, and it's a shame that they don't stand up to
> the real criminals here--who behead civilians for the crime of building Iraq's
> power system, and kidnap the female Iraqi head of CARE..


Building Irak !!!??? hahahaha it's so funny. Nobody where beheaded before YOU
invaded that country. Building Irak...You probably mean assure your standard
over there to get a better control. Rebuilding Irak lol I just can't stop laughing.

> And stop spending billions of dollars for the war on terror. Its useless !
> (except for the war industries...lol) Any intelligent will tell thet guided
> missiles, B52, etc could not do anything to stop terrorism. The only solution
> is to start respect other, and not only see the world as a business
> oportunity.
>
> We will, and should, spend what it takes to make the world (including you
> ungrateful whiners) safe again. Don't you worry about our spending, even
> though you will benefit..


If the US is spending 500 Billions dollars to make the world safer and a better
place to live, then you can stop right away. It isn't working. The world has never
been unsafer as it is since you have attacked Irak. Better use this money to
start rebuilding your own country, and provide a good education to children
so the next generation of president would be better.

> I have to stop here, this subject really gets me out of my mind. I use to
> calm
> down by thinking that the other 50% of american could make the difference one
> day.
>
> That was my flame of the day.
>
> Here's my flame in return..
>

That was my flame return of the flame return of the flame.

Friendly
Marc

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Message 40734 - Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 17:50:07 UTC - in response to Message 40482.
Last modified: 27 Oct 2004, 17:51:11 UTC

Dulce et decorum est. My 200th post.

>>Tom, forget about WMD, It was known that there wasn't any, and the troops never searched to find any. In fact there was some, known by all, but the US troops forgot to protect it. They didn't forgot to protect the pipe lines though.

>You have a selective memory: the troops all wore chemical/biological protective gear because they believed there were WMD!

Your memory is just as hazy - We supplied the hazmat suits in Desert Storm, but didn't even give them bullet-proof vests this time. I'm still astonished that families were able to acquire military-grade material from eBay.

I wonder if I can get military-grade rifles, too?

>>God! bush is and had always been in oil business, don't you guys makes the link. Same in Afganistan, 9/11 been the best reasons to go there, put a puppet in order to finally sign agreement for the Caspian sea pipe lines. Do you really believe it was to remove the taliban ? HAHAHA what the US did when they took control of the contry ? nothing. Bush even made business with them.

>His family has been in the oil business: in America, you are not convicted for what others in your family have done--would you like to be responsible for your father's sins? Your statement is irrelevant, and it assumes the President is acting merely for money--that ignores the history of this conflict and WHO STARTED IT.

We started it - Do you remember when I said "The straw that broke Usama bin-Laden's back was the stationing of female troops in Saudi Arabia and that the American troops were stationed more densely at oil stations than in Kuwait"? Probably not since your memory is so selectively Republican.

>>This is all about oil !!! It has nothing to do with terrorist. Bush war on terror is working... It made american scared so he could do what he wants for the bush familly and friends interrests. Bush is not working for the good of americans peoples, but for his own and those who are doing business with, the saudis.

Thank you for saying "peoples", Marc - You're the only one who gets it right by pointing out our plurality. Merci de mon coeur.

>>And what about all the treaty the US has violate since 9/11 ? The Abu Prisons, the cuban prison of shame, where people are there just because they were dressed like bin laden, Transfer of prisoneer, etc. The list is very very long.

>What treaty? The Geneva conventions? It has been pretty well established that they do not apply to criminal terrorists, who are not members of established national armies.

You forget that the law protects all - Even the accused. The best way to regain the trust and moral-high road that you and I want to take is to work within the confines of ethics, and treat the prisoners as if they were American citizens that had been arrested, giving them reasonable doubt, a full and fair trial, and allowing them due process. This is the high road! You don't have to like your enemies, but you must treat them with respect even if only because they breathe the same air as you do.

The Irish, Israelis, and Spaniards have terrorists too, and they are not as maltreated as we mistreat our own citizens who are incarcerated for the "crime" of being Muslim. Now just imagine being in our real enemy's position - "If I am arrested and the Americans abuse petty foot-soldiers, then what prevents them from sending me to Damascus to have information and fingernails extracted?"

You cannot surrender under that mindset. Death or Victory, but never surrender.

>>I don't know what kind of information you have in the states, are the media controlled ? Ten's of Thousands of innocent people died for nothing because him, Irak has never posed a threat to the US, none a single american never been killed by Irakis before he invaded Irak. Now those Irakis, people who are born there, on THEIR land are fighting the invadors, but the media calls them insurgent. How pathetics is that. Could you just please understand that your army has attacked that country !

>The media here (mostly) hate Bush, but even they can not get away with the false information you have falmed me with in your post..

Bullshit, and you know it. May I remind you that the media will do whatever it takes to make money - After all, media is a business, and businesses die without revenue. "Give the people what they think they want" reasons the media industry, "and they'll keep subscribing to my content and my advertisers will be happy". The people who create the content (read: artists) have never been against a candidate as they are now - Even the Viet-nam protests are pale by comparison. And it is these artists who create the content that gets distributed by your precious Disney, Time Warner, News Corp., Columbia, Infinity, et al. ad nauseum.

When it comes to accuracy, Fahrenheit 9/11 is the only film, video, book, magazine, newspaper, blog, or any form of communication that has not been sued over factual content. It is beyond scrutiny. I suggest you watch it, then ask yourself why it won Palm d'Ore, the most prestigious and recognized prize for the cinematographic art. Oscars are meaningless.

As for Marc's "false information", I would like to see evidence as such. Confession: I have enjoyed spending the last few hours annihilating your position, and I expect that falsities in Marc's statements, if any, will bring me much joy as well.

Off topic: I would also recommend that everyone watch Before the Rain before their next post. Excellent film.

>>In Canada, France, Britain, Germany, Spain, Norway, name them, bush would never ever ever be reelected. He would be kicked out by a majority of 90% I just don't understand how bush could still be at 50% in the polls. Polls that are false anyway... The american polls takes people randomly, it does not represent anything. In Europe the polls reflect the reality of the population.

>When Canada, France, Britain, Germany, Spain, or Norway lose 3,000 innocent civilians in an UNPROVOKED act of murder, then maybe they might see Bush's actions differently. We came to the aid of France, Britain, and other European countries when they were being attacked . . . where were YOU, after our disasterous attack? Complaining about mistreatment of murderers and terrorists.

Decency would require that the Jihad be directed against the State, not its citizens. On this I can agree. But "innocent"? Ignorance and indifference does not equate with innocence. If we made it our cause to ensure the life, liberty, opportunity, justice, dissent, property, equality, fraternity, health, and financial well-being of our fellow Human Beings, then we could claim innocence, for we would have been working in the name of Humanity.

Here are some innocent people. Here are some more. Here are none, because they got compensated to surrender their lives at any given moment.

Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, The Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, and the United Kingdom did not idle by as you accuse, but rallied with us in Afghanistan - Let me refresh your dusty memory banks with the exact quote from the then-Secretary General of NATO Robertson "An attack on one is an attack on all." When it came time for action in Afghanistan, NATO was united. It took the United States and Iraq to divide it.

For the record, I was in Santiago where the deaths were condoned (Pentagon) and condemned (Manhattan). I spent the morning consoling the victims of 1973, and the irony was not lost when the victims came to console me.

>>How is this possible. Could it be that 50% of american are as stupid, arrogant and blind as he is ? Could it be that 50% of americans has the same cowboy mentallity of we have the biggest army, we are the best, our way of life is the best and we do what we want, even if our best friends (Canada, France, etc) says it is wrong, because it is wrong. Could it be that 50% of americans are so unaducated that they can't make the difference between arabs, muslims ? Could it be that 50% of americans never asked themselves why they have been attacked on 9/11. This mentality won't make it in a long run, it just can't continue like that. I wish all americans could ear what the world think of them, its a shame.

>I hear what the world thinks, and it's a shame that they don't stand up to the real criminals here--who behead civilians for the crime of building Iraq's power system, and kidnap the female Iraqi head of CARE..

You may hear what the world thinks, but you don't listen to what the world says, let alone what the Iraqis want. They are desperate to get rid of us from their land - You know that. The greater, longer, and more violent our presence, the greater, longer, and more violent their response.

Here's a temporary solution: UN Aid. We haven't airlifted any food, clothing, building materials, water, or medical supplies, since the military call-backs, and it was the United Nations that was ready, willing, and able to supply it. Without the US presence, the UN could have succeeded. If you don't believe me, then see what has happened to Médecins Sans Frontières in Afghanistan - They have been forced to withdraw because US soldiers were escorting doctors, thereby suggesting to the locals that MSF and the US were in league. MSF had been in present in Afghanistan since the Soviet invasion, survived the Taliban, and were shot at only when the US soldiers showed up.

Was it coincidence? Or was it corrolation? No - This was causality.

>>And stop spending billions of dollars for the war on terror. Its useless ! (except for the war industries...lol) Any intelligent will tell thet guided missiles, B52, etc could not do anything to stop terrorism. The only solution is to start respect other, and not only see the world as a business oportunity.

>We will, and should, spend what it takes to make the world (including you ungrateful whiners) safe again. Don't you worry about our spending, even though you will benefit..

If you truly want to secure the world, then you will have to learn how to make the world content without weapons. No culture, people, nation, or state will roll over to Justice (let alone Democracy or capitalism) via operssion or invasion. It took us a decade to reformulate post-atomic Japan, and even so we needed Hirohito to revoke his hereditary claim and demand the populace to comply with the invader's force. Such is not the case in Iraq.

In the years between the invasion of Kuwait an the invasion of Iraq, did we work to promote our ideals peacefully? How did we teach the significance of the respect for lives, for our liberties, and our aspirations of happiness? What examples of equality, fraternity, justice can you cite? I keep finding extensions of restrictions and weelky missile attacks.

When we sacrifice justice, mercy, and dissent for our own property, health, and prosperity, the case is made clear to those who we seek to convert to the American way of life - Screw over your compatriot, make money, and leave a mess.

Above all else, Man needs consistency, productivity, power, and procreation. A Man without consistency cannot plan his futures in chaos. A Man without productiviy spends his idle time laying blame. A Man without power bemoans his lack of presence. A Man without procreation has not assured future generations. Deny any Man any part of this, his frustration will turn to anger, and he will lash against those who have his lacking trait. And what entity has more of this than us?

I have the patience and dedication needed not only to clean up your mess, but to wait out past exhaustion of nerve and sinew until the foundations of all ideologies are conveyed to the Iraqi population. Only with information, knowledge, and wisdom can any population decide their own fate. We have never had the right to interfere with the manifestation of the destiny of any people, and though I am tired from begging forgiveness for our aggressions ("They know not what they do"), I know for certain that all that is needed is a good example to exhibit as evidence in order help them choose their future.

As for the cost, you must be some accountant, because all I see for my generation is the red ink left by your generation. You and the illustrious party you dare defend have not only shortchanged today's pill-popping baby-boomers turned-Senior-Citizens, but sacrified tomorrow's wallet in the name of instant gratification that is "Security". Consider the following data:

The 2004 on-budget deficit is now $482,000,000,000 ([url=http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2004/pdf/budget.pdf]p. 316[/url]) The 2003 budget allocation for the Department of Defense was $358,200,000,000 ([url=http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2004/pdf/budget.pdf]p. 81[/url]) The 2003 budget allocation for the Department of Homeland Security, $28,200,000,000 ([url=http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2004/pdf/budget.pdf]p. 145[/url]) [url=http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpdodt.htm]Today's debt[/url], both public and intragovernmental, has risen sharply to $7,429,658,534,312.38


Now, I challange you to justify these costs and over-expenditures that have come not only at my expense but in my name, for your claim that we are "secure". I demand you explicitly detail what security we have had gained in this sorry state of a State. Above all, in the name of those who will inherit this fiasco, I demand an explanation for why you insist upon the sacrifice of tommorrow's well-being for today's illusion of security.

Thus expects the Keeper of the Flame.

>>I have to stop here, this subject really gets me out of my mind. I use to calm down by thinking that the other 50% of american could make the difference one day.

>>That was my flame of the day.

>Here's my flame in return..

And here's mine. My only wish is that I had such conviction.

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Message 40782 - Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 21:15:46 UTC - in response to Message 40734.

> When it comes to accuracy, Fahrenheit 9/11 is the only film, video,
> book, magazine, newspaper, blog, or any form of communication that has not
> been sued over factual content. It is beyond scrutiny. I suggest you
> watch it, then ask yourself why it won Palm d'Ore, the most prestigious and
> recognized prize for the cinematographic art. Oscars are meaningless.

Almost fell out of my chair when i read this. All i can say is Joeseph Goebbles would have loved you! check out http://www.psywarrior.com/Goebbels.html i believe GOEBBELS' PRINCIPLES OF PROPAGANDA no. 6 covers Farenheit/911 among others.

As far as the arguments about the war being about Oil; tell me why America refuses to buy oil from the world's 2nd largest oil producing country..Iran? could it be becasue they support terrorism(and have for decades)? Where is all the cheap oil flooding out of Iraq into America? last time i checked oil was $55 a barrel. Your argument holds no water. Iraqs oil was protected for a very good reason! revenues from oil sales would be used to rebuild the country after years of neglect by the former regime. Not to mention trying to prevent the environmental disaster that happened during the first gulf war.

It is also convenient for people to forget that there were 13 years of failed diplomacy before this took place. Almost daily violent enforcement of the no-fly zones. Its amazing how short peoples memories are.

On a personal note about WMD in the region: I was in Kuwait starting in the middle of the conflict working as a civilian. i carried a gas-mask for the first 2 weeks i was there and spoke to my friends during SCUD attacks having to hang up with them on the phone so they could put on their protective gear. Considering the former leader of Iraq's track record i was glad to have the equipment real threat or percieved.
____________
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Message 40788 - Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 21:21:08 UTC
Last modified: 28 Oct 2004, 0:24:43 UTC

Amnesty Int'l Blasts U.S. Over Prisoners

Four Britons sue US officials over Guantanamo 'torture'

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Message 40831 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 0:26:03 UTC - in response to Message 40782.

> Almost fell out of my chair when i read this. All i can say is Joeseph
> Goebbles would have loved you! check out
> http://www.psywarrior.com/Goebbels.html i believe GOEBBELS' PRINCIPLES OF
> PROPAGANDA no. 6 covers Farenheit/911 among others.

Did you see it ?

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Message 40837 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 0:34:27 UTC
Last modified: 28 Oct 2004, 1:11:35 UTC

the "liberation" of the Iraqi people

Repopulating Irak

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Message 40843 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 0:44:05 UTC - in response to Message 40488.

> Finally- overcoming years of blocked initiatives and federal interference, a
> state of the union gets it on the ballot to completely decriminalize
> marijuana, produce it, package it, tax it, and distribute it like any other
> commodity to adults. It had to be Alaska, The only place left in the US where
> personal freedom is serious business.
>
> <a> href="http://www.regulatemarijuanainalaska.org/initiative/index.html">Alaskans
> for sane marijuana policy[/url]
>
>
It won't happen, Federal Law will prohibit it, It might pass but will be tied up
in court for years.
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Message 40845 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 1:04:01 UTC
Last modified: 28 Oct 2004, 1:04:20 UTC

Official claims Russians may have taken Iraq explosives

ABCNEWS HOLDS TERROR WARNING VIDEO...

...GIVES TAPE TO FBI, CIA

VIDEO CAPTURES W. BUSH FLIPPING BIRD IN 90s

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Message 40850 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 1:33:56 UTC
Last modified: 28 Oct 2004, 5:07:19 UTC

I am not responsable for the content of these links.
If you are shocked by the pictures and the truth you
can adress your concerns to the white house.

the "liberation" of the Iraqi people

Repopulating Irak

Americans Slaughtering Civilians in Falluja

Childrens killed in Falluja

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Message 40885 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 4:51:54 UTC - in response to Message 40782.

All i can say is Joeseph Goebbles would have loved you! check out http://www.psywarrior.com/Goebbels.html i believe GOEBBELS' PRINCIPLES OF PROPAGANDA no. 6 covers Farenheit/911 among others.

I've also wathced Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph des Willens, D. W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation, and Sergei Eisenstein's Bronenosets Potyomkin. Propaganda makes good film, y'know - But Fahrenheit 9/11 spent more time, moeny, and effort than anything in recent history in the pursuit of accuracy. If Moore were lying, then where are the slander, defamation, or libel suits?

As far as the arguments about the war being about Oil; tell me why America refuses to buy oil from the world's 2nd largest oil producing country..Iran?

That is an extraordinarily good question!

It is also convenient for people to forget that there were 13 years of failed diplomacy before this took place. Almost daily violent enforcement of the no-fly zones. Its amazing how short peoples memories are.

It is also convenient for people to forget that no president made any diplomatic effort to come to a solution since the invasion of Kuwait. Each president since Bush (I) used Iraq as scapegoat. The same can be said for Cuba, Lybia, N. Korea... It's the American Way of Political Life. :-(

On a personal note about WMD in the region: I was in Kuwait starting in the middle of the conflict working as a civilian. i carried a gas-mask for the first 2 weeks i was there and spoke to my friends during SCUD attacks having to hang up with them on the phone so they could put on their protective gear. Considering the former leader of Iraq's track record i was glad to have the equipment real threat or percieved.

But Kuwait was invaded, and I can appreciate your situation. But 9/11 and Iraq have no common thread.

Let me make sure I make my position clear: It is good to see Saddam removed from power and it is good that there are no Bio-/Chemo-/Nuclear weapons in Iraq. That said, you cannot expect all Iraqis to jump at Democracy instantly after invasion, Saddam is not being taken to The Hauge for war crimes, and all we have succeeded is in pushing his cronies underground.

Victory by fiat of W is failure worth propagandizing.

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Message 40982 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 17:10:01 UTC - in response to Message 40885.

>
> I've also wathced Leni Riefenstahl's <a> href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0025913/">Triumph des Willens[/url], D. W.
> Griffith's Birth of a
> Nation
, and Sergei Eisenstein's <a> href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0015648/">Bronenosets Potyomkin[/url].
> Propaganda makes good film, y'know - But Fahrenheit 9/11 spent more time,
> moeny, and effort than anything in recent history in the pursuit of accuracy.

Thats funny since when is Michael Moore privy to national secrets? did he interview that were the topic of the movie? I can make up anything i wan't about anyone in the public eye simply by cutting and slicing news bites and the sea of mindless morons would gobble it up and make it their religion. its done everyday, truth by perception its really fun.

> If Moore were lying, then where are the slander, defamation, or libel suits?

Simple, becasue the movie is so far off base that it isn't even worth the effort. That would be exactly what more would want anyway to promote his propaganda even more. Like chimney sweeps suing for their portrayal in Mary Poppins. Chimney sweeps don’t dance and sing come on. I have watched similiar propaganda movies back in the day when all the rednecks in america were convinced that the UN wanted to take over the United States..biggest bunch of crap.
>
>
> It is also convenient for people to forget that there were 13 years of
> failed diplomacy before this took place. Almost daily violent enforcement of
> the no-fly zones. Its amazing how short peoples memories are.

>
> It is also convenient for people to forget that no president made any
> diplomatic effort to come to a solution since the invasion of Kuwait. Each
> president since Bush (I) used Iraq as scapegoat. The same can be said for
> Cuba, Lybia, N. Korea... It's the American Way of Political Life. :-(

Well the first conflict was a UN police action not unlike Korea or Bosnia. Why does it have to be the President of the United States why couldn't France, Germany, or any of the other coutries that participated in the first gulf war make a valid effort to get Saddam to play nice? they had 13 friggin years to do it! The only countries that i can remember enforcing the no fly zone was England and the US so much for UN action.

> But Kuwait was invaded, and I can appreciate your situation. But
> 9/11 and Iraq have no common thread.

I disagree, Irag was an inevitability last year or next it was bound to happen that Saddam would need to be dealt with. Once Afghanistan was removed as a safe place for terrorists to hide where do you think they would have shacked up next? The Netherlands?
>
> Let me make sure I make my position clear: It is good to see Saddam removed
> from power and it is good that there are no Bio-/Chemo-/Nuclear weapons in
> Iraq. That said, you cannot expect all Iraqis to jump at Democracy instantly
> after invasion, Saddam is not being taken to The Hauge for war crimes, and all

No one ever said or believed that the Iraqis would wake up one day and be democratic. How long did it take Japan to recover? Europe? South Korea? all democracies built with the help of the United States. Would you deny the Iraqis the same oppourtunity? Hell its my tax money going to help these people make something better for current and future iraqis.
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Message 41020 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 19:23:35 UTC

Iraq will never be a true democracy. Whether they are Sunni, Shiite or Kurds, they are Muslim. They want a government based on the Quoran. To keep Iraq from descending into a civil war, an outside force [UN?] will have be there for many, many years. The Shiites will want to be in control amd the Sunnis will fight them. The Kurds want there own country taken out of Iraq and Turkey. Iran will support the Shiites. Syria will support the Sunnis. Turkey may enter into Iraq to quell the Kurds. We are setting on a powder keg thats about to blow up and only force will stop it. The more force we use, the angrier the Muslims become. More and more think we are attacking their religion. We have a tiger by the tail and no way to let go!
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Message 41023 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 19:43:32 UTC - in response to Message 41020.

> Iraq will never be a true democracy. Whether they are Sunni, Shiite or Kurds,
> they are Muslim. They want a government based on the Quoran. To keep Iraq
> from descending into a civil war, an outside force [UN?] will have be there
> for many, many years. The Shiites will want to be in control amd the Sunnis
> will fight them. The Kurds want there own country taken out of Iraq and
> Turkey. Iran will support the Shiites. Syria will support the Sunnis.
> Turkey may enter into Iraq to quell the Kurds. We are setting on a powder keg
> thats about to blow up and only force will stop it. The more force we use,
> the angrier the Muslims become. More and more think we are attacking their
> religion. We have a tiger by the tail and no way to let go!


It is sooooooooo true.
Bush as opened a pendor's box and god knows how it will end. Invasion
of Irak was the biggest mistake in the USA history. I would guess that
there is now 10 times more muslim fanatics willing to stikes US then ever
before. Now since Bush was convince it was a good idea, and turned his
back to the international community, pissed all his allies, and badly
hurts USA reputation and credibility, Who will stand with the USa when
the next attack comes ? Because there will be others for sure.
How sad it is that innocent peoples in the US, madrid, Irak, Bali, etc
suffers from fanatics on all sides...


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Message 41029 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 20:36:06 UTC
Last modified: 28 Oct 2004, 20:42:10 UTC

Iraq death toll 'soared post-war'

100,000 civilians have died

Bush as the bloods of 100000 innocent civilians on his hands. Period.
More then Sadam would have ever dreamed of...He should be bring to
international justice for crime against humanity ! Why not ?
Were these innocents peoples attacked the US ?

Think about it 100000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nuclear watchdog insists Iraq explosives taken after US invasion


Of course it was. This is an old story. They have been talking about that
in Europe since long before it finally make it to the US controlled media...

American (Bush) policies make me sick and I just can't beleive he still has
supporters. It doesn't make sence.

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Message 41039 - Posted: 28 Oct 2004, 21:52:15 UTC - in response to Message 41020.

> Iraq will never be a true democracy. Whether they are Sunni, Shiite or Kurds,
> they are Muslim. They want a government based on the Quoran. To keep Iraq
> from descending into a civil war, an outside force [UN?] will have be there
> for many, many years. The Shiites will want to be in control amd the Sunnis
> will fight them. The Kurds want there own country taken out of Iraq and
> Turkey. Iran will support the Shiites. Syria will support the Sunnis.
> Turkey may enter into Iraq to quell the Kurds. We are setting on a powder keg
> thats about to blow up and only force will stop it. The more force we use,
> the angrier the Muslims become. More and more think we are attacking their
> religion. We have a tiger by the tail and no way to let go!
>

This existed before we invaded and will exist after we leave so whats your point? America did not create these divisions if anything we seperated the fighting parties and caused them to sit down and talk. Iraq is worlds better off then they were a few years ago. The terrorist that we and the Iraqi government are extermintating now are mostly foreign fighters from neighboring countries. Sure there are a few Iraqi's with them but not many. There will be fighting for some time to come which is normal growing pains with matters such as these.
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