I have been learning about the process of electrolysis to split the Hydrogen and Oxygen out of water for use in internal combustion engines. The mixture of HHO gas is then put into the intake airflow for a Gasoline or Diesel engine, enhancing the combustion, lowering the polution, improving the efficiency of the engine, and lowering fuel costs.

What has been your experience with HHO?

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Mercedes and VW is working on a fuel cell curently.
We have 12 submarines in germany wich using this technology.
The biggest problem for cars atm is the heat mercedes said.
They expect in 10 years it should be possible to release those cars.

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With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

Mercedes and VW is working on a fuel cell curently.
We have 12 submarines in germany wich using this technology.
The biggest problem for cars atm is the heat mercedes said.
They expect in 10 years it should be possible to release those cars.

The ones I am talking about, are used to create supplemental fuel, not to power the vehicle entirely. A small amount of HHO, something like 1 to 3 liters per minute output, which could lower fuel consumption by up to half or more.

Will be great if they can come up with a car that can run solely off of hydrogen that it produces. In the meantime, I think that supplementing the petroleum based fuels is probably an excellent thing.

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The ones I am talking about, are used to create supplemental fuel, not to power the vehicle entirely. A small amount of HHO, something like 1 to 3 liters per minute output, which could lower fuel consumption by up to half or more.

Where do you get the electricity from to power the electrolysis to split the water?


Aside: Using chemical formula, you have:

2(H2O) => 2(H2) + O2

(You need two oxygen atoms to form an oxygen (gas) molecule.)


Keep searchin',
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The ones I am talking about, are used to create supplemental fuel, not to power the vehicle entirely. A small amount of HHO, something like 1 to 3 liters per minute output, which could lower fuel consumption by up to half or more.

Where do you get the electricity from to power the electrolysis to split the water?


Aside: Using chemical formula, you have:

2(H2O) => 2(H2) + O2

(You need two oxygen atoms to form an oxygen (gas) molecule.)


Keep searchin',
Martin

You get the DC power from the vehicle's alternator/battery/electrical system.

Mark

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The ones I am talking about, are used to create supplemental fuel, not to power the vehicle entirely. A small amount of HHO, something like 1 to 3 liters per minute output, which could lower fuel consumption by up to half or more.

Where do you get the electricity from to power the electrolysis to split the water?
[...]

You get the DC power from the vehicle's alternator/battery/electrical system.

And what powers (drives) the vehicle alternator?...

Note also that the alternator is not 100% efficient. Also, you suffer waste heat losses from the electrolysis. And combustion of the 2H2 O2 mixture you've made is less than 100% efficient.

So... Where is the 'extra' energy coming from to make all that cyclic generation work?


That sort of stuff is called "Perpetual Motion" and is also known as a scam.

Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The ones I am talking about, are used to create supplemental fuel, not to power the vehicle entirely. A small amount of HHO, something like 1 to 3 liters per minute output, which could lower fuel consumption by up to half or more.

Will be great if they can come up with a car that can run solely off of hydrogen that it produces. In the meantime, I think that supplementing the petroleum based fuels is probably an excellent thing.

How much water do you have to carry around?

Because at about 8.5 pounds per gallon, the heavier car is use more gas carrying that weight and offset any gains you might have. That doesn't even take into account whatever you're using to power this gadget.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

The ones I am talking about, are used to create supplemental fuel, not to power the vehicle entirely. A small amount of HHO, something like 1 to 3 liters per minute output, which could lower fuel consumption by up to half or more.

Where do you get the electricity from to power the electrolysis to split the water?
[...]

You get the DC power from the vehicle's alternator/battery/electrical system.

And what powers (drives) the vehicle alternator?...

Note also that the alternator is not 100% efficient. Also, you suffer waste heat losses from the electrolysis. And combustion of the 2H2 O2 mixture you've made is less than 100% efficient.

So... Where is the 'extra' energy coming from to make all that cyclic generation work?


That sort of stuff is called "Perpetual Motion" and is also known as a scam.

Keep searchin',
Martin

Not a scam. The addition of the HHO or 2H O2, to the current fuel air mixture, causes it to burn more completely. No extra energy.

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The ones I am talking about, are used to create supplemental fuel, not to power the vehicle entirely. A small amount of HHO, something like 1 to 3 liters per minute output, which could lower fuel consumption by up to half or more.

Will be great if they can come up with a car that can run solely off of hydrogen that it produces. In the meantime, I think that supplementing the petroleum based fuels is probably an excellent thing.

How much water do you have to carry around?

Because at about 8.5 pounds per gallon, the heavier car is use more gas carrying that weight and offset any gains you might have. That doesn't even take into account whatever you're using to power this gadget.

Lets say you have probably a 1 or 2 liter unit, doing the electrolysis. So probably around 4 to 6 lbs. Add a little water when you fill up the gas tank.

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SNIPER,

I suggest you reread ML1's recent posts again and make sure that you understand them before proceeding further. you may ask those touting this device for a reference user that you can go visit. That should end the discussion right there.

regards,

Bill

Mark,
Maybe you could post something to the MythBusters. They have a place on their website, whre you can do so.
Just a suggestion.

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Pluto will always be a planet to me.

Seti Ambassador
Not to late to order an Anni Shirt

Mark,
Maybe you could post something to the MythBusters. They have a place on their website, whre you can do so.
Just a suggestion.

I think mythbusters already did a show on it, however they used some slobs design, to the letter, without adding any ingenuity or common sense on their part (I was told)...

For vehicles with O2 sensors, some electronics (EFIE) are required to "trick" the vehicles computer to add less fuel, because it senses more oxygen in the exhaust due to better combustion. Without adjusting the sensor feed, the computer thinks the engine is running lean, and adds more fuel, thus making for worse gas mileage.

There are quite a few people that have gotten some pretty good results though, using different electronic devices like a PWM, to pulse the voltage to the boosters, EFIE to correct the incorrect O2 sensor readings, Coils in or around their boosters to aid in the breaking of the H2O molecule, etc.

I got my 2lb sample bottle of KOH (Potassium Hydroxide) a couple days ago. KOH and NaOH are the 2 electrolysers most commonly accepted for the boosters. Baking Soda is a bad choice, as it gives of CO and CO2, and coats the electrodes with Carbon. Salt produces Chlorine gas, which can be toxic.

I have made a couple of small electrolyser units, trying different things, but have yet to hook one up to my pickup. Still wanting to avoid making mistakes with my only mode of transportation. When I have it all together, and know how much better my mileage is, I will let you know.

Mark

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SNIPER,

I suggest you reread ML1's recent posts again and make sure that you understand them before proceeding further. you may ask those touting this device for a reference user that you can go visit. That should end the discussion right there.

regards,

Bill

Bill,

I agree with ML1's analogy about the ones that claim to be able to run a vehicle entirely on fuel that the vehicle itself creates. They are most certainly right-up-front, scams. More ways of separating us from our hard earned money. Cold Fusion is not a reality yet. Perpetual motion probably isn't going to happen in our lifetimes. Who knows. (Maybe ET will know how to do it and be willing to share the knowledge.)

However, by taking say 15 or 20, or even 30 amps of your alternators power output, and breaking out a liter or two per minute of Hydrogen and Oxygen, and piping that mixture into the normal airflow into the motor, along with the normal fuel the engine runs on, will make the combustion more complete, thus giving better fuel performance of the normal fuel, plus covering the nominal drag on the alternator, plus giving better fuel mileage. The vehicle isn't running off of Hydrogen alone, but off of its normal fuel.

When was the last time you put some sort of additive in your fuel tank, that improved your mileage? Did it work by cleaning up the fuel system? Did it work by enhancing the actual combustion?

Racers use Nitrous Oxide to give their motors' fuel an enhanced combustion. The Hydrogen/Oxygen mixture produced onboard a vehicle should work in the same way.

Adding pure Oxygen to any combustion will make it a much more complete combustion, and Hydrogen itself burns a LOT faster than Gasoline or Diesel. Having this mixture amongst the normal air in the combustion chamber will add both fuel and Oxygen into the fuel/air mixture.

The Hydrogen/Oxygen mixture from water electrolysis is HIGHLY explosive also. Not something to be played with. Do a search on YouTube for Hydrogen Explosion. People that play with fire..... Well, you know. That is why I am taking my time, studying it, learning the DO's and the DONT's before I hook up a booster to my pickup.

When I have it figured out and hooked up, and have put some mileage on my pickup, with a booster doing its thing, I will report whatever increase or decrease in mileage I get. I, like most of the rest of the people that hear about this technology, am a bit skeptical of it, but I "think" it can work and can improve fuel mileage if done properly. As a skeptic, I need proof too. (Still waiting for SETI to find ET, and crunching away.)

Mark

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Yes.

The fact remains that the system involving the gasoline--engine--alternator--electrolysis device is fraught with less than 100% efficiency at each step. The best Diesel engine might be 35% efficient. the alternator perhaps 85% --Don't know the electrolysis process efficiency.

The point is you are producing energy at probably 20% -25% efficiency. You are running down--not gaining an advantage. It looks to me that any new energy that you generate will come at the cost of 4 to 5 times that amount in extra diesel fuel burned. You will also be hauling around a lot of extra weight and possibly running less optimally than before since your sensors involved in combustion may give false readings due to the altered fuel source. you will have to store an explosive gas and figure out how to control flow in a non throttled engine fueled by extremely high pressure injectors.

regards,

Bill

... by taking say 15 or 20, or even 30 amps of your alternators power output, and breaking out a liter or two per minute of Hydrogen and Oxygen,

That sort of current draw from the alternator is a heavy load. It's like driving with your handbrake still on.

The engine will require extra fuel to drive the alternator.

... along with the normal fuel the engine runs on, will make the combustion more complete, thus giving better fuel performance of the normal fuel, plus covering the nominal drag on the alternator, plus giving better fuel mileage.

This is where you need to consider the numbers and the losses. The 'drag' on the alternator is rather large.

It's a bit like taking an electric motor to help turn the engine, and powering that from your alternator...

Note that a lot of design effort has already gone into ensuring complete combusion of the fuel. The only way to get any more of an improvement is to either relax the emissions requirements or move to higher compression and better fuel.

Note that for complete combustion, you should have zero O2 and zero fuel left. But also, you must limit the amount of CO produced (CO2 is ok apart from global warming!)... If you have an excess of O2 left, then you are burning too lean and too hot.

Sorry, 2(H2) + O2 is far far far far too explosive to be 'useful' in a petrol engine.

... Racers use Nitrous Oxide to give their motors' fuel an enhanced combustion.

The 'enhancement' with that is to allow more fuel to be burnt. It's an alternative to using turbocharging or supercharging. You get more power but for a lot more fuel used, hence no improvement in fuel efficiency.

... Adding pure Oxygen to any combustion will make it a much more complete combustion, and Hydrogen itself burns a LOT faster than Gasoline or Diesel.

Yes, and for internal combustion engines that is very bad! Heard 'pinking' ('knocking')?

When I have it figured out and hooked up, and have put some mileage on my pickup, with a booster doing its thing, I will report whatever increase or decrease in mileage I get.

Accurately measured numbers will be interesting.

Can you also measure the power input into the 'enhancement' device?

... As a skeptic, I need proof too. (Still waiting for SETI to find ET, and crunching away.)

Keep searchin'!

Cheers,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The Hydrogen/Oxygen mixture from water electrolysis is HIGHLY explosive also. Not something to be played with...

Special note:

Pure O2 gas is HIGHLY REACTIVE. It will react with almost EVERYTHING. It will cause metal to BURN like a fire cracker... Think 'corrosion' but with molten flames.

Note the disastrous fire suffered in Apollo 1...


Make sure that your mixture is dilute, or that you are using approved materials.

Good luck,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Racers use Nitrous Oxide to give their motors' fuel an enhanced combustion. The Hydrogen/Oxygen mixture produced onboard a vehicle should work in the same way.

The Nitrous Oxide is being supplied by an outside source, not produced on-board.

It is also fuel -- it burns. It's a small tank because it is used in bursts, not continuously. Overall, it's very different.

The big question is: can the long-term efficiency increase exceed the power used to generate a little hydrogen?

It seems quite unlikely, but I have no doubt that there is someone who is convinced that it works.

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Yes.

The fact remains that the system involving the gasoline--engine--alternator--electrolysis device is fraught with less than 100% efficiency at each step. The best Diesel engine might be 35% efficient. the alternator perhaps 85% --Don't know the electrolysis process efficiency.

The point is you are producing energy at probably 20% -25% efficiency. You are running down--not gaining an advantage. It looks to me that any new energy that you generate will come at the cost of 4 to 5 times that amount in extra diesel fuel burned. You will also be hauling around a lot of extra weight and possibly running less optimally than before since your sensors involved in combustion may give false readings due to the altered fuel source. you will have to store an explosive gas and figure out how to control flow in a non throttled engine fueled by extremely high pressure injectors.

regards,

Bill

Bill,

I plan on trying it once I figure out how to do it safely, just to see if it produces positive results. I am going to but the electrolysis device together myself, with fairly cheap materials, probably less than $100. If I use one of the water filter cannisters, it will weigh less than 10 lbs all together, so I dont think my 10,000lb pickup is going to struggle with the weight. No additional water should be need to be added for a couple hundred miles at least, and then only a cup or two.(supposedly.) No storage needed, as it is an on-demand system. Same amount going into the engine at Idle or at full throttle, probably giving more efficiency at idle than at full throttle. Will see. I have not checked to see if my Diesel has O2 sensors. If it does, I will have to buy an EFIE to "trick" the ECU into thinking it is running normally. The HHO will be going into the intake, probably somewhere before the turbo, if I can find out whether or not the turbo will ignite it or not, no high pressures required there. If it has to go in after the turbo, it will not be that high of pressure anyway. The water filter canister is supposed to be good for 80 psi, and the turbo gives a max boost of 25 psi I believe.

If I build the cell right, there should be very little excess heat coming from the electrolysis process.

I have come to realize there is a learning curve here, but not bad.

Mark

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Yes.

The fact remains that the system involving the gasoline--engine--alternator--electrolysis device is fraught with less than 100% efficiency at each step. The best Diesel engine might be 35% efficient. the alternator perhaps 85% --Don't know the electrolysis process efficiency.

The point is you are producing energy at probably 20% -25% efficiency. You are running down--not gaining an advantage. It looks to me that any new energy that you generate will come at the cost of 4 to 5 times that amount in extra diesel fuel burned. You will also be hauling around a lot of extra weight and possibly running less optimally than before since your sensors involved in combustion may give false readings due to the altered fuel source. you will have to store an explosive gas and figure out how to control flow in a non throttled engine fueled by extremely high pressure injectors.

regards,
Nice idea but I don't think your system will produce enough gas to make any difference unless you plan to store it and then you would have to seperate the two gas form each other because if you combine the two you make water and you don't want water in your fuel, so I would inject the hydrogen and discard the oxygen. So I would develop a system away from the truck and produce hydrogen in a seperate faculity and store it in a tank and then use the hydrogen gas in a canister to inject the hydrogen into the fuel system.
Bill

Bill,

I plan on trying it once I figure out how to do it safely, just to see if it produces positive results. I am going to but the electrolysis device together myself, with fairly cheap materials, probably less than $100. If I use one of the water filter cannisters, it will weigh less than 10 lbs all together, so I dont think my 10,000lb pickup is going to struggle with the weight. No additional water should be need to be added for a couple hundred miles at least, and then only a cup or two.(supposedly.) No storage needed, as it is an on-demand system. Same amount going into the engine at Idle or at full throttle, probably giving more efficiency at idle than at full throttle. Will see. I have not checked to see if my Diesel has O2 sensors. If it does, I will have to buy an EFIE to "trick" the ECU into thinking it is running normally. The HHO will be going into the intake, probably somewhere before the turbo, if I can find out whether or not the turbo will ignite it or not, no high pressures required there. If it has to go in after the turbo, it will not be that high of pressure anyway. The water filter canister is supposed to be good for 80 psi, and the turbo gives a max boost of 25 psi I believe.

If I build the cell right, there should be very little excess heat coming from the electrolysis process.

I have come to realize there is a learning curve here, but not bad.

Mark

I don't think your system will produce enough gas I think you would have to produce the hydrogen off of the truck instead of within the truck such as a seperate faculity and store it then feed the bulk hydrogen to the fuel system and discard the oxygen because hydrogen and oxygen makes water and you don't want water in your fuel

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It is quite interesting to see all the negative comments Mark got here and in the Politics - Biofuels threads.

Logically these comments hold water, and the perpetual motion machine is the reason in the front of most peoples minds. Quite correctly.

But, from what I have read, when Mark posts, he is a very pragmatic person with a skeptical mind. But, he has found (like I did) so much on data and claims on Browns Gas/HHO units he had to see if there was something to these claims.

That is why he is cautiously experimenting making a safe unit, then trying it in his diesel trick.

If it works, he can see what the reduction in fuel consumption really is or whether it does not work.

Mark - diesels do not have an oxygen sensor in the exhaust, it is only petrols. It is used to reduce fueling if the CO/CO2 production is too high and more oxygen is needed. Diesels, with their unrestricted air intakes, always run with a large excess of pxygen to the fuel used.

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It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues