So you do you actually accept that parents have a duty of care towards their children?

Sure.

Would you for example use the law to intervene in cases of neglect?

No problem there.

Or would you allow parents the 'freedom' to abuse their children?

Nope.

What about parents who exercise their right to opt out of health insurance either by choice or because they simply can't afford it?

What do you think? What if they cannot afford food? Clothing? Education?

Would you force parents to get medical care for their children against their will? I just want to know where you draw the line.

There is no line to draw. Drive the costs of medical care down to the costs of loaves of bread and mobile phones and every other consumer goods and this ceases to become an issue.

You say that those who will not give healthcare to those that do not pay. Which on the surface seems logical..however diseases don't tend to recognise the boundaries of individual rights. So we will end up with a situation where people are not vaccinated or not treated for diseases.

We have that situation now. Not everyone gets shots whether they are free or not. Not everyone is treated for their diseases now.

so they spread them to others. Causing suffering, disability and death which could actually be preventable. Which in fact is a situation you have in some parts of the US where access to vaccines is not universal and you have some 3rd world diseases still in your poorer populations.

Funnily enough, when people can afford to pay for their health care, THEY DO. They forgo other things in order to pay for that. Just the the argument against putting prescription drugs OTC. When people are responsible for their own health, in general they DON'T drink entire bottles of cough syrup. They DON'T eat entire boxes of sleeping pills. The principle is the same, when the choice is spending a few cents for a vaccine at Wal-Mart or dying of TB, overwhelmingly people choose to spend the few cents.

Please also back up your assertion that preventative medicine does not work...

I can use the NHS as an example. Post here, for all to see, say for the next year, the times and dates you are required to be at NHS for your "oil changes." Oh, you aren't required to go into NHS? If you aren't then they aren't preventing anything.

But the evidence would be the fact that the costs of HMOs went through the roof, even though Congress specifically exempted them from massive punitive damages suits. You know, they were Health Maintenance Organizations, except that that's now how the human body gets sick. It just gets sick, and the fact that you were at the HMO two months earlier isn't going to prevent that.

because again...you find a lot of patients in the US only seek medical intervention once the illness is progressed enough that the patient has no alternative than to seek help and by then the illness will have become harder and more expensive to treat...and as a consequence actually cost the health service more, and increase suffering for patients.

Maybe a few, overwhelmingly people in the U.S. are insured, and plenty of emergency rooms are buried with people who go there for primary care, they aren't waiting around much either. Some do. Some always will.

But the point of all this is to drive costs down. You seem more worried about making sure costs get driven up by adding gov't monopolies, removing choice, taking incentives away, and making damn sure that Pfizer and SMK just get to send one giant bill to the gov't each year. That bill keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger....

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

In the old days, before the Internet, you could get away with it. Your victims had no way to set the record straight, to show the viewers how you had misrepresented the truth. But now, we can post the truth -- and back it up with evidence and facts -- on the web, for all to see.

;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Facts don't seem to matter much here....Canadian healthcare with Patty whats her name.......rich ownwer of the falcons....and she just wants goood health care.


and don't find this kind of idea solo here. We have a version of socialized meds heeere.

434 or so new meds prduced by american cpitalism.

socialized medicine served up about 5... it's sad whatn you want......sad sadddddd sad....all u want is death sentences for the rest of us fat ass americans........u sd sad people

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

There are several scathing reviews of the factual innaccuracies of this so called documentary


lifespan is one that he claims....there are countless other lies.


don't think you have a true documentary here.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

don't think you have a true documentary here.

There are flaws to be found in EVERYTHING...

For example:

You forgot to capitalize your letter 'd'... Does this invalidate your entire post history?

Surely one must possess proper grammar skills before posting in a public forum... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

No, Jeffey. I forgot to capitalize my letter 'D'. You caught me man...

don't think you have a true documentary here.

There are flaws to be found in EVERYTHING...

For example:

You forgot to capitalize your letter 'd'... Does this invalidate your entire post history?

Surely one must possess proper grammar skills before posting in a public forum... ;)

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

IMHO each MD, physician, each medical staff should have a call according to the Hippocratic Oath, to do what they do only for the benefit of the sick and not for the benefit of their own purse..

That's the original Hippocratic Oath

I swear by Apollo the physician and Aesculapius and Hygeia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses that, according to my ability and judgement, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation:

To reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him and relieve his necessities if required, to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers and to teach them this Art if they shall wish to learn it without fee or stipulation, and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath, according to the Law of Medicine, but to none others.

I will follow the system of regimen which according to my ability and judgement I consider for the benefit of my patients and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous.

I will give no deadly medicine to anyone if asked nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion.

With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art.

I will not cut persons laboring under the stone but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work.

Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption, and further from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves.

Whatever in connection with my professional practice or not in connection with it I see or hear in the life of men which ought not to be spoken of abroad I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret.

While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the Art respected by all men in all times. But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot.

And the modern one.

Hippocratic Oath—Modern Version

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.


Written in 1964 by Louis Lasagna, Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University, and used in many medical schools today.

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Account frozen...

Here's something from Australia on Moore. Featured recently in one of our newspapers.

The trouble with Mike

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Never surrender and never give up. In the darkest hour there is always hope.

"Sicko" in Top 5 Grossing Docs of All Time!

... after only 3 weeks. :)

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

@ Rush - You're 100% right! Hope you never get sick.

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DONATE TO SETI

@ Rush - You're 100% right!

I know, but thank you for noticing.

Hope you never get sick.

Same here. But I'm insured *really* well.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

[quote]@ Rush - You're 100% right!

I know, but thank you for noticing.

How very humble of you, Rush. Not even a hint of gloating.....very nice....lol

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

Moore calls for impeachment and prosecution of Bush and Cheney:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkX5p8-ns1A


U.S. MILITARY DEATHS (IRAQ): 3640
U.S. MILITARY WOUNDED (IRAQ): 26953
IRAQI CIVILIAN DEATHS (MIN): 67945
'EXCESS' IRAQI DEATHS: 655000

http://michaelmoore.com/

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Moore calls for impeachment and prosecution of Bush and Cheney:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkX5p8-ns1A


U.S. MILITARY DEATHS (IRAQ): 3640
U.S. MILITARY WOUNDED (IRAQ): 26953
IRAQI CIVILIAN DEATHS (MIN): 67945
'EXCESS' IRAQI DEATHS: 655000

http://michaelmoore.com/

Let him. Moore is a US Citizen, and has the right to call for this. However, the decision to do so does not rest with him. The power of Impeachment in this case rests with the US House of Representatives. And the leader of that body, Speaker Pelosi, has stated that 'impeachment is off the table'. It won't happen until she changes her mind on the subject... (Yes, the Speaker of the House *IS* that powerful... the Position actually has more power to affect the Law and the Workings of Government than the President -- it is widely considered to be the most Powerful position in the Federal Government). I happen to agree with her decision.

Regardless of any other factor, Bush acted with the Authority granted him by Congress when he invaded Iraq. Congress has YET to 'order' the troops OUT of Iraq. Under the War Powers Act, in the absence of a Declared War, foreign deployment of US Military assets is subject to Congressional oversight. A US President is authorized to deploy US military to combat situations in foreign nations without advice and consent of Congress for a period of, I believe, 90 days. After that period has expired, Congress has the authority to tell the President to bring them home.

Bush wisely sought (under the War Powers Act) the 'Advice and Consent' of Congress before he started this 'war'. Congress saw the same intelligence that Bush (and many other foreign governments) saw and came to the same conclusion. Congress voted to allow Bush to go forward with the invasion of Iraq. Congress has YET to tell Bush to bring the troops home. At this point, the Iraqi 'war' *IS* authorized by Congress.

There has been no impeachable offense here yet. Now, if Congress DOES order the troops out of Iraq, and Bush refuses to comply, THEN we have an impeachable offense. But until then, Bush has the troops in Iraq under the FULL Authority of Congress.

Now *other* actions of Dubya may lead to Impeachment, especially his extended, protracted 'urination contest' with Congress over Executive Privilege. Now, the Executive branch DOES have a certain level of necessary 'Privilege', but I think Dubya is beginning to go quite a bit beyond that which has customarily been allowed. Speaker Pelosi may change her mind if Dubya continues to insult the dignity and authority of Congress by further insisting on Executive Privilege. But, if she does change her mind and allow Impeachment to go forward, it will be on those grounds (abuse of Constitutionally granted power by the President in forbidding testimony to Congress by members of his administration), and NOT on the Iraq 'war'.

Impeaching Dubya over Iraq would be an Insult to the Dignity of Congress, since Dubya, in Iraq, has acted and is acting with the Full and Complete blessing of Congress. Barring a sudden and total change of circumstances, Impeachment of Dubya over Iraq is Not Gonna Happen.

Boot em all out.

:D

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Agreed profusely

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It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

Bush acted with the Authority granted him by Congress when he invaded Iraq.

Authority yes, approval no... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Wait. So, we're saying Michael Moore is a sicko?

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Boot em all out.

:D

I totally agree. Vote out every single elected person in Wash. DC, and replace them all with new people. Furthermore, I would argue for STRICT term limits on ALL of those offices as well. In my opinion, one term then you are out for good.

This would get rid of all the corruption and other tomfoolery that goes on in Wash. DC.

Boot em all out.

:D

I totally agree. Vote out every single elected person in Wash. DC, and replace them all with new people. Furthermore, I would argue for STRICT term limits on ALL of those offices as well. In my opinion, one term then you are out for good.

This would get rid of all the corruption and other tomfoolery that goes on in Wash. DC.

No such things occur.
S'all good.
No worries.

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.