Watch it i got a spoon!!and im afraid to use it!!!

Yikes, Spoonman!

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right ...great!

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Scorpions - Wind Of Change

Please do not embed pictures of weapons in this thread.

The main justification for this is that such pictures are not kid-friendly, particularly when collected in a thread which otherwise purports to be a serious discussion of a complex and controversial issue.

If you prefer to have all such threads hidden as flame-bait (or whatever) I am sure everyone who wastes their time trying to give you a civilised platform for intelligent discussion will be only to pleased to oblige.

And:

(Apart from anything else lots of pictures will turn in into a trade catalog which would not be appropriate for this forum.)

Thanks.

yes you are totally right

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Scorpions - Wind Of Change

Please do not embed pictures of weapons in this thread.

The main justification for this is that such pictures are not kid-friendly, particularly when collected in a thread which otherwise purports to be a serious discussion of a complex and controversial issue.

If you prefer to have all such threads hidden as flame-bait (or whatever) I am sure everyone who wastes their time trying to give you a civilised platform for intelligent discussion will be only to pleased to oblige.

And:

(Apart from anything else lots of pictures will turn in into a trade catalog which would not be appropriate for this forum.)

Thanks.

Translation: Although this message board is probably mostly used by adults, please, think about the children.

The rules are very clear. They don't mention anything about guns.

"Posts must be 'kid friendly': they may not contain content that is obscene, hate-related, sexually explicit or suggestive."

---

Please do not embed pictures of weapons in this thread.

The main justification for this is that such pictures are not kid-friendly, particularly when collected in a thread which otherwise purports to be a serious discussion of a complex and controversial issue.

If you prefer to have all such threads hidden as flame-bait (or whatever) I am sure everyone who wastes their time trying to give you a civilised platform for intelligent discussion will be only to pleased to oblige.

SNIP..

Hey!!

I tried to offer some level of serious discussion.. I don't think I wasted my time... and I would not oblige to the killing of this thread.

I hope I wasn't child unfriendly in my words.

When I was a child I was bought replica guns, soldiers, tanks and various toy killing machines.

My niece and nephew more recently loved watching monsteroid robots with big killing things attached or playing kill em all etc on their PC.

I am not saying this to be aukward but I think for me (from my perspective) it makes a real good point in the context of this thread.

We grow from child upwards with a certain normality that seems acceptable.

Some of these experiences like pain, ageing, hard work and eventual death are life's realities.

If people here in this thread who support the freedom to carry guns are to be accepted then I guess they will teach their children that shooting others or being shot at are part of lifes normality however unwanted.

I would never let my youngsters accept the ownership of guns as a right. Other cultures obviously have a different value even if they do or do not always say it out loud.

What is acceptable for our children?

Who's (or which country's or culture's values) do we follow when we decide what is child acceptable?

If we asked if 'gun ownership was right or wrong' should we also not ask whether we are willing to share our prefered culture with our children...

Should we teach them how to shoot and the best locations on a humans body to target so as to train them not to hesitate if they were ever in threat?

Should we teach our children how to avoid escalation?

Should we teach them not to watch Bugs Bunny and the Road Runner as they try to shoot or blow each other up?

Should we teach our children to avoid reading words and pictures about our (their significant adults) way of life?

Valid points somehow...

<SNIP>

When I was a child I was bought replica guns, soldiers, tanks and various killing machines.

My niece and nephew more recently loved watching monsteroid robots with big killing things attached or playing kill em all etc on their PC.

I am not saying this to be aukward but I think for me (from my perspective) it makes a real good point in the context of this thread.

We grow from child upwards with a certain normality that seems acceptable.

Some of these experiences like pain, ageing, hard work and eventual death are life's realities.

If people here in this thread who support the freedom to carry guns are to be accepted then I guess they will teach their children that shooting others or being shot at are part of lifes normality however unwanted.

I would never let my youngsters accept the ownership of guns as a right. Other cultures obviously have a different value even if they do not always say it out loud.

What is acceptable for our children?

Who's (or which country's or culture's values) do we follow when we decide what is child acceptable?

If we asked if 'gun ownership was right or wrong' should we also not ask whether we are willing to share our prefered culture with our children...

Should we teach them how to shoot and the best locations on a humans body to target so as to train them not to hesitate and to do the job well?

Valid points? I don't know.

Hmm... You raise some issues that I think merit some discussion. Let me start by saying that I tend to disagree with some of your conclusions, and will endeavor to explain why.

First of all, do you believe in property rights? That your property is yours and should not be taken from you without permission without due process of law? At the heart of property rights is the right to prevent others from taking your property without permission or due process of law. You have the right to lock your house to prevent others from removing your possessions when you are not there, for instance.

Property rights are at the heart of the right to life. Your life is your property. Therefore, you have the right to prevent others from taking it from you (again, without permission or due process of law). This is the right of 'self defense'. Now, before you state that this would apply to the attacker, remember the thing about permission. By attempting to use deadly force against someone without permission or due process of law, the attacker is giving effective permission to use deadly force against them.

Now, nothing says you MUST do so if attacked with potentially deadly force without permission or due process of law, only that you CAN do so, if you so desire. It is, of course, totally your decision, and is usually based on moral or religious grounds. It is ok if you object to doing so in your own case, but it is not ok if you try to use your beliefs to prevent someone else from exercising their right to do so.

Next, no one says that shooting someone (or otherwise using deadly force against them) or being shot at (or having any other deadly force used against you without permission or due process of law) should be a normal part of life. It is an extreme situation, and I wish it was one that nobody would ever have to face. Sadly, this wish does not match reality, and there many evil do'ers out there. So, it only makes sense that you, if you think that you might ever try to exercise your right of self defense be trained to effectively do so. Again, getting trained is a personal decision that the individual has to make. Doing so should not be forced on them by any other agency (be it individual or government), nor should it be interfered with or prevented by the same.

On to another topic. Not all threats to one's life are human. There are a wide variety of dangerous animals, for instance. Growing up working on my dad's cattle ranch, I had numerous occasions to use a firearm in self defense (or defense of the cattle) against several types of poisonous snakes, as well as packs of wild dogs. Knowing how to shoot a firearm effectively was VERY useful to me; I wouldn't have wanted to face down a pack of wild dogs with a knife or other bladed weapon (can't swing it fast enough). I also used firearms as a humane way to put down diseased or highly injured animals to end their suffering. There are many valid reasons for owning a firearm that do not involve killing other people.

Also, guns are not the only deadly weapon. Knives (and other bladed weapons) are deadly weapons as well, you even expressing a fondness for them earlier in the thread. So are knitting needles and automobiles. Recently in my area we had a case where someone ran someone else over. They tried to claim it was an accident, but the evidence showed (and several eye witnesses stated) that they backed up and ran the other person over again multiple times. That person's jail term was significantly lengthened because it was ruled that the automobile is a deadly weapon.

So, should we ban all these other deadly weapons from our society, even though they have many other lawful uses, just because some few use them in unlawful manners? Of course not. Its the same with firearms. Lets not deprive ourselves of the right to own and use legitimate tools in lawful manners. Instead, lets increase the punishment given to those that use them in unlawful ways. Its not the gun's fault if it is used to murder someone, its only a tool. The fault rests with the murderer.

To answer questions about myself to help you determine my perspective on this, I am something of a conservative libertarian. Yes, I do own firearms. No, I no longer carry them around with me. Yes, I have been shot at. And yes, I have shot at other people. Had to do so a couple of times. A couple of decades ago, I used to carry a badge as well as a gun.

On to the last subject, that of 'the children'. As a parent, you are free to raise your children as you see fit, subject to only a few legally imposed limits. For instance, you can't use life threatening or severe injury punishments on your kids. You can't for instance starve them, or beat them severely. But, at least in my neck of the woods, a mild spanking is ok. Another example might be their education. It is your responsibility to see that they are educated.

Other than these few legal restrictions, you are free to raise your kids any way you wish. You are free to bring them up in a religious/moral way of your choice. You are free to have them educated in a way of your choice. Where I live, those choices include public school, various religious and secular private schools, and even home-schooling is an option. Parents have a wide degree of latitude in these and many other areas. They also have the responsibility to raise good citizens.

As far as violence on TV, in the movies, and in various electronic games... I think that a kid is old enough for that when they are old enough to tell the difference between a fiction (the game/movie/show) and reality. This, however, is kinda dependent on the child and their rate of maturity. I could tell the difference before I started 1st grade. I have also seen some rather immature people in their late 20s that I don't think can. In my opinion, it is up to the parent's judgment whether or not, and if so then when, to allow their kids to watch and/or play these sorts of things.

Glock 23

"Right."
High Standard 357 Mag.
Remington 870 Express Magnum 12 GA
Enfield Mark 2 303 "Sporterized"
Russian SKS
Ruger 10/22 Stainless
H&R 22 Pistol
Winchester 30.30
"When Guns are outlawed only Outlaws will have Guns."

@KWSN Majorkong: I wish I could have expressed my opinion on this
topic as elequently as you have...well said. I agree...

@ cRunchy You also have made some very good points are well, but most
of them revolve around child rearing and not proper gun ownership and responsibility.

Then there is the usual thread hijack spam...oh well.

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Account frozen...

My friend asked me which pistol to recomend for his skinny gorgeous wife. I recomended a .357 2inch Colt Python. It can shoot .38's and .357's and wont ever jam. what u think ? She is about 90 lbs, counting 7 lbs of implants. Yeah, I know. Its a California question

Hi Lester. On the Colt Python, yes and no. First, I have a fairly significant bit of military experience and training, plus I grew up in Texas -- yes, my grandmother was packing -- so you can judge my advice based on that standard.

I'll try to stick to revolvers in this reply. You are correct about a revolver's reliability, and simplicity: I compare them to the macintosh -- point and click. Revolvers are an inherently safe design, so there are no safeties to fuss with in the dark under fire. A revolver is always ready to go: you can load it, put it in a drawer and leave it there, yet it will still be ready for action a century later when your (hopefully) adult grandchildren have need of it. Try that with any semi auto pistol and you will ruin the mag spring eventually and probably be forced to fight with a jammed weapon.

Revolvers are slower weapons to fire, with a much lower round capacity; that said, a bit of practice will remedy the speed problem, and almost all studies of civilian gunfights, especially indoors, show that the first few rounds are by far the most important. Once you start changing mags or reloading cylinders your chances of getting a hit go down remarkably. The best solution for that problem is training. All new owners of any revolver should be taught NOT to flip the cylinder out or slap it back in as you so often see in the movies. There is no faster way to destroy a revolver -- one time can do it.

The Python is a superb revolver, I carried one as backup when I was in the service. An unusual choice, and a bit problematic in the field, but it served me fairly well (at least until I switched to a Browning Hi Power, which was really more suited for living and working with outdoors, but what a difference. Don't ever compare a Hi Power's trigger to a Python's -- its the one and only time a Hi Power actually looks bad.)

The problem really isn't so much the weapon, but the taste ot the user: some experienced guys hate the recoil of a hand cannon, and some squealy little 13 year old girls love it. It doesn't effect me one way or the other (except for that darn 7mm Mag. deer rifle I used to have -- never shot it once without coming up bloody. Bonked me in the forehead, kicked me in the mouth, how I wound up with bloody elbows I'll never figure out . . .)

One problem: the Python -- like many Colts -- is known for being designed for guys with large hands. The grips of a Smith and Wesson are much smaller and better suited for women. Any determined woman can compensate for the recoil or even the grips, but the less any of us have to deal with in a crunch the better.

Another problem with your choice is the length of the barrel. To get the real benefit from a .357 you really need a six inch barrel so the expanding gasses have enough time to push the round to the speed required to get the magnum effect. A two inch barreled .357 will not achieve the speed required, but will create a huge night blinding flash, a painful recoil (even more painful with a Colt grip than say, a Smith and Wesson.) The 2 in Python with .357 ammo is a handful to control and though it generates more Oomph than a .38 special, its still not much more than a 9mm, which is much easier to control.

IMHO, the only reason to get a two inch .357 is if you already have a .357 BBH (short for "Big Beautiful Handgun", usually a large frame revolver in a large caliber with a long barrel -- like a Python with a six inch barrel.) That way you can use either type of ammo in either weapon in a pinch (no turning on the light to figure out why the ammo doesn't fit.) Unless the lady in question is going carry the weapon -- a bit tricky in California -- a smaller weapon is not needed and a BBH is the better choice for a house bound weapon.

If she plans on spending a lot of time at the range and becoming a skilled shooter, the Python with the long barrel is a good choice. Its a well made weapon, very accurate, unbelievably smooth and very durable. The recoil is not bad with .38 special ammo. If she just wants to put it in the drawer, a better choice at half the price might be a Taurus 608 .357 mag with a 6.5 inch barrel. Its not as durable (the crane is weak) but if its just to keep handy "just in case" the 608 is enough, and it has an eight shot capacity (don't get it ported though, a weapon that sized doesn't need porting, it can rob you of your night vision, bleeds off some of the power, plus ports are just one more thing to clean after firing.) Taurus also has fabulous customer service, if the 608 develops problems they will certainly fix it for free and very likely replace it.

If money is no object she can spend the same amount of money as one Python and get a Smith and Wesson Stainless Steel Chiefs Special 14 .357 with a 2 and 1/8 in barrel AND a Taurus 608. This way she has a serious weapon with an eight shot capacity (that's the Taurus) handy for extreme situations, plus a smaller but more durable 5 shot snub she can load with .38 special for practice and carry, and as a backup for the Taurus (that way no reloading is required.) Both weapons use common ammo, have all the advantages of a revolver and this way most of the disadvantages are negated. The S&W has smaller grips and is very accurate for a snub, and manageable with .38 (.357 is a rude surprise though.)

One last problem is the tendency of a .357 to over penetrate not only people but walls and sometimes whole houses. She will need to train for that contingency -- which leads me to my last suggestion: Training. Whatever weapon she gets, make sure to impress upon her the need for first rate training, it is more important than her choice of weapon. Between training sessions teach her to practice a skill that was advised by Machiavelli: imagine a possible scenario and devise solutions for it, then critique and refine the solutions.

Recently a study was done of police who have survived many gunfights, it turned out they all shared the habit of imagining and solving such scenarios, just as Machiavelli advised -- though many had never read him.

One LAST last thing, I have a habit of losing faith in my fellow man. Just when I give up on them altogether, I always come across something that shows me I'm wrong. In this case, its this thread. No bullies, no self righteousness, nobody on either side of a hot button debate who is unable to say, "I could be wrong." Nice work everyone.

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I would recommend a Beretta .25 caliber auto pistol.

Small, lightweight, and little recoil. Don't let it's small size or
caliber fool you...a shot to the head or chest would be devastating at
close range.

However, the maintance, and use of the weapon, plus a good knowledge of
the law is essential. Also, she should have a safe locked place to put it
if she has children. I would recomment an good local CCW or NRA course.

Gun safety is essential.

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Account frozen...

My Wife has a M9 9 mm Beretta Pistol and loves it.

Let me make stance on the issue clear (horsewhip, my butt).
I am a life member of the NRA, and staunchly defend every legal US citizen's right to own a LEGAL weapon for hunting or self defense.
I do not happen to own a firearm of any kind right now, but the above still stands.
The saying "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is not just a bumper sticker but a hard truth, borne out by statistics in regions that have banned gun ownership by law abiding citizens.
I do not believe that owning a gun is a 'liscence to kill', and if faced with the threat of some bloke busting into my house and threatening my life, my first attempt if the situation allowed it, would be to shoot below the waist to disable the SOB rather than to try to kill them outright.
I also forget at times, that when I post on these boards I am not just expressing my views to just US citizens, but people from all walks of life and many different countries, with significantly different laws and customs involved. I am expressing my opinion as a US citizen, in regard to the laws in this country.
So...... please do not be offended if the discussion is rendered moot by the laws where you reside.

My Mother who is 96, and lives alone on her farm in North Carolina, looked out her kitchen window and saw a rather rough looking man standing next to the door to her breezeway. She raised the window and asked what he was doing there to which he replied just looking at things. She told him that he had better leave, that she didn't want him there. He replied, "I don't think I will you old bitch". She then told him she was calling 911, and after that she was going to come back and shoot him. She called 911 and related the situation to the dispacher and the dispacher replied. "Lady it will be 20 minutes before an officer can get there. For Gods sake if you shoot him, drag his body inside the door".
So much for counting on the police to be there to protect you life when needed.
Anyway, she went back to the window with her pistol in hand, and the guy was running like hell and about a quarter of a mile down the road. The sheriff did spot and arrest him. He was an escaped convict.

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When we finally figure it all out, all the rules will change and we can start all over again.

<SNIP> Also, she should have a safe locked place to put it
if she has children. I would recomment an good local CCW or NRA course.

Gun safety is essential.

DITTO!

@KWSN Majorkong: I wish I could have expressed my opinion on this
topic as elequently as you have...well said. I agree...

@ cRunchy You also have made some very good points are well, but most
of them revolve around child rearing and not proper gun ownership and responsibility.

Then there is the usual thread hijack spam...oh well.

Grr... Dismissive pants and affectations.

One of the worlds largest killers is malaria... Lets go shoot mosquitos.

Let's blame criminals for our right to use guns.

Let's hunt even though 99.9% of the industrialised world eats farmed foods.


As the only dissenting voice I give in...

I suspected it was always going to be mostly an American discussion anyway. (OK I accept people will tell me off for this truth :o))~

It would have been good to hear from other countries that also had such a strong belief in the right to hold firearms.


Maybe if I visit the US I should take a bazooka..

Grrrr...

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I'd still recommend the Sig Sauer P220 Crimson Trace® in .45ACP.

The Crimson Trace® is a grip integrated laser sight. It's a quick and accurate sighting system.

---

@KWSN Majorkong: I wish I could have expressed my opinion on this
topic as elequently as you have...well said. I agree...

@ cRunchy You also have made some very good points are well, but most
of them revolve around child rearing and not proper gun ownership and responsibility.

Then there is the usual thread hijack spam...oh well.

Grr... Dismissive pants and affectations.

One of the worlds largest killers is malaria... Lets go shoot mosquitos.

Let's blame criminals for our right to use guns.

Let's hunt even though 99.9% of the industrialised world eats farmed foods.


As the only dissenting voice I give in...

I suspected it was always going to be mostly an American discussion anyway. (OK I accept people will tell me off for this truth :o))~

It would have been good to hear from other countries that also had such a strong belief in the right to hold firearms.


Maybe if I visit the US I should take a bazooka..

Grrrr...

It's not really that bad over here and I respect your opinion.
I live out in the countryside and still hunt and target shoot.

Let me make stance on the issue clear (horsewhip, my butt).
I am a life member of the NRA, and staunchly defend every legal US citizen's right to own a LEGAL weapon for hunting or self defense.
I do not happen to own a firearm of any kind right now, but the above still stands.
The saying "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is not just a bumper sticker but a hard truth, borne out by statistics in regions that have banned gun ownership by law abiding citizens.
I do not believe that owning a gun is a 'liscence to kill', and if faced with the threat of some bloke busting into my house and threatening my life, my first attempt if the situation allowed it, would be to shoot below the waist to disable the SOB rather than to try to kill them outright.
I also forget at times, that when I post on these boards I am not just expressing my views to just US citizens, but people from all walks of life and many different countries, with significantly different laws and customs involved. I am expressing my opinion as a US citizen, in regard to the laws in this country.
So...... please do not be offended if the discussion is rendered moot by the laws where you reside.

My Mother who is 96, and lives alone on her farm in North Carolina, looked out her kitchen window and saw a rather rough looking man standing next to the door to her breezeway. She raised the window and asked what he was doing there to which he replied just looking at things. She told him that he had better leave, that she didn't want him there. He replied, "I don't think I will you old bitch". She then told him she was calling 911, and after that she was going to come back and shoot him. She called 911 and related the situation to the dispacher and the dispacher replied. "Lady it will be 20 minutes before an officer can get there. For Gods sake if you shoot him, drag his body inside the door".
So much for counting on the police to be there to protect you life when needed.
Anyway, she went back to the window with her pistol in hand, and the guy was running like hell and about a quarter of a mile down the road. The sheriff did spot and arrest him. He was an escaped convict.

Perfect example, as I stated below. The police cannot be everywhere to protect everyone. Good for your mother!!

Guns are not the problem, its the bad guys who don't care about laws that hurt the lives of others. I don't care how many gun restrictions there are, not 1 criminal in the world cares. I was raised around guns. My family hunts every year. Guns are a part of our life. I also enjoy going to the range with friends, and having a nice competition to see who shoots the best.

And it is nice to see this thread so active, without bashing. It is very educational to see different parts of the world and how different laws are. There are no right or wrong answers here. Very lively discussion. I hope this stays this way. :-)

Jeremy

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I'd still recommend the Sig Sauer P220 Crimson Trace® in .45ACP.

The Crimson Trace® is a grip integrated laser sight. It's a quick and accurate sighting system.

Still a wee bit much for a "NEWB".

I'd still recommend the Sig Sauer P220 Crimson Trace® in .45ACP.

The Crimson Trace® is a grip integrated laser sight. It's a quick and accurate sighting system.

Still a wee bit much for a "NEWB".

Why do you say that? It's a whole bunch easier to handle than a deafening, big recoil .357 anything. and the laser sights really, really work.

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