I've been reading lot's of post on these and the the classic boards, and I must say, they don't really make me look forward to the day classic ends. I used to, as I'm happy with all that crunches for seti@home and as boinc is the place for the next generation of seti@home.

The thing is, many current classic crunchers don't like boinc. That's ok, many of those will get used to boinc, just as I did, and it's common to dislike new things for a while especially when those new things introduce many radical changes. But there are those of these who dislikes boinc that go further: they hate boinc.

I've noticed that many of those who hate boinc didn't give boinc much of a chance. They complain about EVERYTHING, from the no wu count to the fact that their classic 3rd party add-ons don't work with boinc and beyond that. They even complain about how boinc users think of classic users (when actually I've seen many more insults by classic users towords boinc users than the other way around).

I've seen complaints about qeueuing software not being compatible with boinc, while this is buildt into boinc - but the boinc haters didn't bother to at least ask about this before they turned hate-mode on.

I've seen complaints about boinc not being able to run as a service, while this has been buildt into the installer of boinc - but the boinc haters didn't bother to at least acknowledge this increase of userfriendlyness before they turned hate-mode on.

I've seen complaints about the new credit system, while lots of people go a long long way to explain how it works and why its introduced - but the boinc haters didn't bother to acknowledge or in many cases even listen to this before they turned hate-mode on.

I've seen complaints about outages making CPUs run dry of work and cool down, and while many of those outages are out of the berkeley guys control and of no fault of the boinc software (both client and server side), they get blamed (both the boinc software and the berkeley guys) - and the boinc haters didn't bother to listen to the explainations and even solutions, those being permanent or temporary, served on a silver plater before they turned hate-mode on.

I've seen complaints about us boinc users insulting classic users - but the boinc haters didn't bother to notice that most insults are a direct result of insults being made at the boinc users.

I've seen complaints about the lack of a cli version, while a cli version was available and came with boinc - but the boinc haters didn't bother to at least ask about this.

I've seen inquiries made resulting in dismissed explanations with a "cheerleader" label attached to it. I've seen boinc users give up their attempts to explain what-is as questions turned out to be a starting point for bashing. I've seen boinc users give up attempts to help as the ones apparently wanting help didn't like the answers as they were non-classic compliant.

What I haven't seen is anyone ask if the changes between classic and boinc are a result of what have been learned from classic. But I do see alot more of this "classic vs. boinc" war. Don't get me wrong, I've seen a few boinc users sticking their heads in a bucket and being all but pleasant towords current classic users. But it seems to me that the more claims are being made of "being in it for the science" the more credits (that being either wu count AND copplestones) and software issues have importance.

So why all these complaints? And I don't mean "valid" inquiries, questions, wonderings, suggestions etc. but I mean all the complaints that are a display of hate against boinc. Is it frustration about some having a head start on credits compared to those who haven't made the transition yet? I'm beginning to think so - as many of those issues have a solution of one kind or the other. Personally I can't see why anyone would use that much energy just to hate boinc. But if a high percentage of that hate is due to being behind in credits - I have a suggestion to reduce this, as quite frankly I'm at the edge of being fed up with all this hate on the boards which would increase by an unknown but very very high factor the day the classic-plug is pulled: reset credits for everyone the day classic officially stops.

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The credits are for the work done with BOINC. Why take someone's credit away just because classic users moan. Credit is earned and there is no justifictaion for taking it away. Unthinkable and unfair. Some early Boincers have RAC of 50 or 100 and it has taken them a year to build that credit. Why set them back just to put a smile on classic faces? Classic users should join sooner rather than later and help sort out the problems - although I must say the problems are not huge. I have been Boincing for 6 weeks or so and apart from some downtime with servers....which classic had too remember ..... Boinc has been good. They should remember the science , forget about their egos and just come over and do us all a favour!

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> But if a high percentage of that hate is due to being behind in
> credits - I have a suggestion to reduce this, as quite frankly I'm at the edge
> of being fed up with all this hate on the boards which would increase by an
> unknown but very very high factor the day the classic-plug is pulled: reset
> credits for everyone the day classic officially stops.

And penalise all those that helped make BOINC good enough for the world at large?
:-)

The simple fact is that BOINC is different to Classic. It's not so much about who has how many Credits or Classic results; it's just the fact it is so different from what they know.
And many people really are too lazy to make the effort to find out why it's different. They just want things to stay the way they are.

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Grant
Darwin NT

Agreed Grant, agreed!

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it's not about penalizing anyone ;) It's about ending some stupid "war". Sure, there are those who want things to stay as they are and to never change (there'll always be some of those). The suggestion is more my why of saying "this is soooo tiring" and to illustrate just HOW MUCH it is tiring.

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Well if it is what you say it will all end soon....when classic ceases...then we are all on the same side....that of science.

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The one thing I liked about Classic was that the graphics were smoother than the BIONC graphics. Maybe they can just make the BOINC graphics look the same.

I don't recall any news saying that Boinc was just going to be "Trial Version" and not be the new way of doing things. There was nothing to stop "Classic" users from joining Boinc in the beginning. If they were interested in competing then certainly they'd have joined in the beginning. The end of Classic was surely clear enough to see, especially many months ago when it was announced that "Classic" would end.

They won't restart the Indianapolis 500 because a few drivers forgot it was "Raceday" and showed up late.

Since some of people have been with the seti classic from the start and have gone to boic in the recent past there are only two thing I have observed on boinc that concerns me as a seti cruncher:1. The average goes down for the cruncher when boinc is down. 2.The PENDING status goes clear back to early April.
Since the early days of classic the down time was high and comms with Berkele were much slower than today. The down time we are having today with boinc is not any worse than the early days of classic. Growing Pains again I am sure!
The problems will I am sure will be over soon, but there will be others,you can bet on that too!

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Hi All,
It is Human Nature not to readily accept change, no matter how small. We all get into a "comfort Level" with many things we do in our lives, and are normally againest any interruption in our "Normal" operating procedure. Many find fault with the change simply because it is outside this level. All will fall into place. It always does. Those that do not have the ability to conform, will find a way..or find a way out.
No disrespect intended is intended by this post at all...just the way it is!

Very Respectfully,

Rocky

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www.boincsynergy.com

There may also be some feeling too that:

"I'm volunteering my CPU time for this project and have been doing so for a long time... SetiClassic produces results that are just as valid and usefull as SetiBOINC, why should I learn a new system when I'm a volunteer and the end result is the same anyway?"

It's a valid arguement, but you have to remember that the BOINC staff isn't making any money off what we do, and with a small staff they can't continue to support two projects forever.

"Well, why develop BOINC in the first place when the Seti@home results are the same?"

To help other projects (eg CPDN, Einstein, LHC, etc) who don't have the resources and/or volunteer base to develop their own project. I went into BOINC with the idea that this was more about the Berkeley staff helping other projects with no great benefit to themselves. Isn't that the point of scientific progress on some level?

"BOINC is riddled with errors and problems."

Anybody remember the early days (year+) of SetiClassic? Not to mention the fact that you still have to use 3rd party add-ons to make SetiClassic useable for many people.

"What about Credits?"

Credits are great, but they are totally intangible. You can't buy anything with them, they're not something you can compare with anyone other than the participants here. Besides, I always thought CPU stats were better for comparing sizes... erm, I mean... nevermind.

We're going through growing pains (switching a lot of computer services) where I work and I'll admit it's not great, it's more work (in the short term) and I don't like it. But the Berkeley team has had the idea for BOINC almost since the beginnning of the whole Seti@home project. And while the roll-out was much delayed, we all knew that SetiClassic would go away and be replaced by SetiBOINC.

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7,049 S@H Classic Credits

Well I started running classic years after it started, maybe everyone's credits should have been reset when I joined because of the "unfair" advantage of them joining first.

NO, Of course not.

People that don't like BOINC don't want change. They like how simple it is just to put SETISPY and the Client in the corner, let it run, do its work.

Learning how a whole new system works can take time, its easier just to keep doing what your doing, but its not going to happen, classic is going to end, but it will have a new beginning with BOINC.

I think we should accept that SETI will lose people with the close of classic, but BOINC must be done, it offers to much to not do.

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BOINC WIKI
Overclockers.com's Forum

... it's just because it's different. That's all.

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CREDITS, WHAT ABOUT MY SETI CREDITS? I LOST ALL OF THEM ACCUMULATED BEFORE I STARTED BOINC....

well, let me tell you how I really feel.
I really don't care about the credits. I care about the science, to some degree, but to finding others out there, to the biggest degree.

Imagine, little old lady Imarunning Ms486 in the hills of TN.
She runs her little computer, takes her two days to run one BOINC seti, and then, she finds THE signal.
She is the one to work with two other road hogs running quadruple pentium 88s with super frogger running.
Those three are the ones to find THE seti signal.
Who do you think will get the most real world credit? the little old lady.
Why? its a consumer interest story.
uh
I don't make any sense with the story above.
What I really mean to say is..... In the end, it won't matter who made ALL of the credits, or how many credits you die with.
(here lies fred, 1.21 jigacredits through his head)
It will matter that we all worked together, on our varying platforms, varying cpus, varying religions, varying beliefs, varying countries, varying os's (yes, even linux is an os, ar ar ar), and we all tried to find something together.
And, someone will find it.
That is what matters.

So everyone, quit bickering, fighting, and work together. If you don't like something about the new engine, say something in a constructive way, and see if others feel the same, and it could get changed.

BOINC will die some time in the near future, and by near, I mean within 10 years at the most, as someone will find a better way to do this, and all of the boincers who had been in boinc from the beginning will bitch and moan, the same bitches and moans you hear everytime something changes.

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Thanks, and Keep on crunchin'
John Henry KI4JPL
Sevierville TN

I started with nothing,
and I still have some of it left.
<img src="http://www.boincstats.com/stats/banner.php?cpid=989478996ebd8eadba8f0809051cdde2">

It is very depressing to find that you have nothing to add as others have said it so much better than you ever thought you could.

But I will admit that *I* too often wonder about the "why".

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Paul,
I don't know if your comment was directed at me, or if it was even meant to be negative.
I simply was trying to say, it doesn't matter.
Do what you can, when you can, how you can to the best of your abilities.
Change is normal, get use to it.
Even boinc will change, and eventually phase out to something newer and better.
If you don't like how I said something, you can ignore it.

Most posts are very negative one way or the other, and all I'm saying is chill out.

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Thanks, and Keep on crunchin'
John Henry KI4JPL
Sevierville TN

I started with nothing,
and I still have some of it left.
<img src="http://www.boincstats.com/stats/banner.php?cpid=989478996ebd8eadba8f0809051cdde2">

> Paul,
> I don't know if your comment was directed at me, or if it was even meant to be
> negative.

No, directed at the air. And it was not meant to be negative, other than the scratch my head and wonder about the angst.

> I simply was trying to say, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, I know. It is like the monthy "credit debate" where Classic is a perfect system and anything else is unspeakable.

> Do what you can, when you can, how you can to the best of your abilities.
> Change is normal, get use to it.

Yes, and sometimes change is good. I now have a 4.35 GUI running on the Macintosh ... :)

Ah, life is good ...

> Even boinc will change, and eventually phase out to something newer and
> better.
> If you don't like how I said something, you can ignore it.

I'm autistic, won't even notice it ... :)

> Most posts are very negative one way or the other, and all I'm saying is chill
> out.

Good advice ...
>
>

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Paul,
Thanks, and glad that I misunderstood your meaning.
Maybe time for me to go home for the day.
Take care,

---

Thanks, and Keep on crunchin'
John Henry KI4JPL
Sevierville TN

I started with nothing,
and I still have some of it left.
<img src="http://www.boincstats.com/stats/banner.php?cpid=989478996ebd8eadba8f0809051cdde2">

> They should remember the science , forget about their egos and
> just come over and do us all a favour!
>
Of course, that might be said to apply to those on the BOINC side have a RAC of 50 or so -- they could 'surrender' that to reward those long time SETI classic folks (remember that Seti Classic was there before BOINC) who don't want to give up THEIR RAC, eh?

Just pointing out that it really isn't a one way street.

I'm on both sides -- I have an overall rank of a bit over 500 on the Classic side and around 6000 on the BOINC side -- with an expectation of pushing my BOINC rank up a lot over the next year, provided of course BOINC is stable (both with the Cogent link and with the various software issues).

I agree that the periodic sniping that occurs between Classic and BOINC folks can become pretty non-productive though.

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> People that don't like BOINC don't want change. They like how simple it is
> just to put SETISPY and the Client in the corner, let it run, do its work.
>
I could be wrong, but that sure seems like an oversimplification of what is at play here.

Though there is an element of truth here -- folks in Seti Classic have had a stable functioning environment (certainly on the *software side*) for a long time and it allows them to 'do the science' without allocating an ongoing effort to coping with the software.

On the BOINC side, we're still working with software which has in some aspects a 'beta' feel to it. So as the client runs though iterations, folks do have to allocate time to respond to those iterations (some of which have not been good changes --- I run 4.19 at the moment and will sit there until something that seems not only *newer*, and includes useful *additional functionality* but also something which is at least as reliable as 4.19. Then again, I work as a computer consultant, so I'm willing to allocate at least some time to the *work* of coping with a moving software target.

Seti Classic seems to me to have incorporated some sense of a collective *social* experiment -- and as a result for whatever reason appealed to (and still appeals to) a significant 'mass market' of people. Seti BOINC seems more focused on being more specifically a *scientific* experiment with less (or no) focus on being anything of a *social* experiment. As a result, it doesn't appeal that same 'mass market' -- further, I do get a sense that when some of those Classic folks (of the masses) sneak on over here with their own 'populist' sensibilities, they both get offended and give offense to the 'more purist' science population which BOINC serves.

So there is a something of a cultural difference -- no value judgment here -- just an observation -- which can create a bit of strife when the two cultures mix.

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