> To further your ideas on your "historyofmacedonia.org" website about
> Macedonian ethnicity and history, you present the following statement: "Greeks
> are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian)
> people, which separate them from other Mediteranian groups". Sounds like Nazi
> genetic research ideas to me Endo!
>
Youre realy so stubborn?
Doesnt the study concludes that Macedonians and Greek are two distinct nations? Wheres the nazzi idea ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
The study shows to stupid people this is to prove this two nation s are not even closly identical, knowin this how can you say Macedonians are Greeks?

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Well first, I'm not German, but American, which has nothing to do with anything.

And usually people don't rebel against governments like the Albanians are, or have been doing, unless the are seriously oppressed man.

Yes Endo, I guess that I am stubborn, and sinse I'm also a hacker, I have an almost endless amount of patience as well.

> Well first, I'm not German, but American, which has nothing to do with
> anything.
>
> And usually people don't rebel against governments like the Albanians are, or
> have been doing, unless the are seriously oppressed man.
>
Its got anything to do whit it ....

Opressed by having universities in their own language, high schools, primary schools??? I dont recall US government giving the 40 milion Spanish speaking people a uni in spanish languge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By waving the albanian flag all over western Macedonia????
Answer me this: are foreighn citizens allowed to wave a foreighn flags in USA in front of their houses???
The rebels(terorists)in this case wanted greater albania (all albanians in one country).. and the so called rebells majority of them were from kosovo ex fighters of KLA,and this so called rebels were mudjahedins(exuse my spelling)we all now what they did i believe it was 3 years ago. SO YOU GIVE ME A BREAK.

ill say this again CHECK YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT..
If you want more indipendent view :
http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/news_page.asp?nid=417

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You just keep going in circles Endo. No, I don't believe that the idea of a greater nation through territorial expansion belongs in this day and age we live in. But that does not mean that the Albanians don't have a right fight for their region, and in a country that oppresses them. I mean, you don't see the Albanians fihting in that many other countries for their rights. Hmm.

Oh yea, I forgot to answer your question on whether we allow foreign citizens to wave flags in our country. Well in a way, you're waving a foreign flag Endo, by providing and supporting a link on an American website to another website that says that our government backs terrorism in your country, Macedonia

Alex

USA (speaking of government)is backing whoever and whatever is necessary to protect USA interest. And of course they are not alone. All big countries does. Small nations are the ones who are under constant pressure from the great ones.

I live nearby Endo and although I don't like Serbia, they have done bad things here too, have to say this to defend them. USA was supporting KLA and at the time they were criminal organisation (and still is) also smuggling dope around Europe. Because USA wants a base in the region (they also bought a firing range in Macedonija) KLA was declared as freedom fighters (the good guys)
In Swiss many KLA were arested for criminal activities. Mostly drug related.

But to make long story short. Goverments on the ruins of Yugoslavia decided to accept USA and NATO as godfather to protect them. And atm the Serbia is bad.
There is also no solution atm for state of Macedonia. Greeks history and icons are taken also from Macedoni history and many achievements that suposed to be Greek are in fact Macedonians. And that is a problem since both are the good guys in the latest Balkan war. Will see what the future will bring.

And Alex, spending some time in USA i understand the way people think i realised Americans are very practical but should read and understand history before trying to judge and impose their views to somebody else.

There has been many injustices made in the Balkan area by the big nations (German, France, UK, Italia) and elsewhere in Europe too. And until Yugoslavia exists they didn't dare to make demands. Now Yugoslavia split in pieces (not that I want it back) many saw a chance to get a piece of the pie for themselves.

Just recently Italian fashists started a new round (unfortunatly for us they are a government party) of their activities, like their friends in Germany.

And please before replying, read some history and then make comments.

Tony

Greetings Tony.

Well, I started this thread to address my views about the URL "historyofmcedonia.org" that belongs one of the other members, Endo the Macedonian.

In this website, there are many assertions that the Greeks are not Macedonian. Which is kinda like saying that the Spartans or the Thebans were not Greeks either. Or maybe like saying that the Saxons were not German. There is also a "genetic study" wich says: "Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups". Something that would suggest that they're not even Europeans,this is something that that is indeed quite crazy and racist as well.

> Or maybe like saying that the Saxons were not German.

What's the problem with that?
If they like do call themself Sachsen, and say they are, so be it. The whole of Europe is a big hotchpotch of 'nations'. Just a few hundred years ago, this remark about Sachsen being just Germans, and not something distinct from, say, Bayern, would have been an insult.

I would compare this greek/macedonian situation more to this one:
We Germans proclaim that there is no such thing as the Dutch. They are just Germans, have ever been, they all speak just a german dialect, so it should be forbidden for any poeple to call themself Dutch.
I do not think this would be widely appreciated by the Dutch (and neither by me).

What I call myself depends largely on hte context where I have to 'define' myself as opposite to others regionally. So I'm Human, European, German, Niedersachse, Wrisbergholzer, Oberdorfler, depending whom I speak with and what I want to say.

I can imagine that if I was forced to be something I do not wish to be (like Kurds in Turkey, Basques in Francos Spain, Tibetans in China...) I would be even more insistant to be what I am, although seen from the outside it's just a small difference (like for me Frysians in Holland).

So where is the problem with Macedonians proclaiming to be Macedonians?

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Gruesse vom Saenger

For questions about Boinc look in the BOINC-Wiki

Hi Sanger, what I was actually referring to, are the assertions on the website that the Greeks, both ancient as well modern, have nothing to do ethnically or culturally with the Macedonians. I only used the Saxon reference in this sense. That is, that it would be as if to say the Saxons had no relation to the German people whatsoever. I am very happy to defend the position that responsible historians take on this very important issue. I find it sad that there are some people out there willing to attack Greece by asserting that their Macedonian history is not relly theirs at all, and that they are not even Europeans! This is hate Sanger. I also think that the Greeks desreve a litte more respect since they gave us the one thing that most of us cherish so very very much: DEMOCRACY.

Alex

> You just keep going in circles Endo. No, I don't believe that the idea of a
> greater nation through territorial expansion belongs in this day and age we
> live in. But that does not mean that the Albanians don't have a right fight
> for their region, and in a country that oppresses them. I mean, you don't see
> the Albanians fihting in that many other countries for their rights. Hmm.
>
FIRST OF ALL western Macedonia was never albanian again if you check your facts you will see that half of the albanians are from kosovo ilegal imigrants, secondly their birth rate has increased enormously in the last 60 or so years, this brings me to say they have no culture pre dating 1900 all the mosqes in the region are from the turk era on the balkans and having said this Macedonians have a culture dateing back to the 3 rd century that is churches so, how in the hell that is albanian land and where else in the world minority in foreign country has a university, i didnt mentioned newspapers and tv channels their own FC......
And what democracy greece has today? Go to amnesty international web site do a search for the oppressed macedonian & turkish minorities in your democratic greece..Did you now that 85% of the todays greek youth do not like foreigners in their country(that means you & me) a yes this poll was done by a EU comission which your frends are members of.

Now it just ocured to me USA just recognized FYROM as you guess as nothing else but MACEDONIA so Bush did not back the nla dickheads but Billy boy.

and for you beeng a hacker....well i sue you for dry cleaner costs, for you make me shit my pants (seriously).

I'll also urge the hacking comunity to not be embarest of you becouse you cant use this forum.

you need to get a life man go out there if you are in europe take a vacation see the world we its beautiful out there....

having said this words ill also ask if someone can point me to a symantec site so i can get some kind of fire wall program for my debian box, after all i dont want you to hack into my computer.

---

> FIRST OF ALL western Macedonia was never albanian again if you check your
> facts you will see that half of the albanians are from kosovo ilegal
> imigrants, secondly their birth rate has increased enormously in the last 60
> or so years, this brings me to say they have no culture pre dating 1900 all
> the mosqes in the region are from the turk era on the balkans and having said
> this Macedonians have a culture dateing back to the 3 rd century that is
> churches so, how in the hell that is albanian land and where else in the world
> minority in foreign country has a university, i didnt mentioned newspapers and
> tv channels their own FC......

As far as I disagree with Alex's bold rejection of your core position, I disagree on anything, that 'proves' some territorial claims in Europe based on any given historic date.
European nations/folks/tribes have roamed the whole continent endlessly, so for everything can be made a 'substanciated' claim at some wellchosen date.
Nobody has to be told: 'You are Turk, not Kurd' or 'You are Greek, not Macedonian', or 'You are German, not Sorb'.
But that has to be independent from political borders. The people (and of course some governments) have to relax more about this.
So there are Albanians in that area of the political entity thats called Macedonia, they arrived there for different reasons in the past, but they live there legally. And as you claim more rights for the macedonian minority in Greece (IMHO you're right here) you have to do the same with the albanian minority in Macedonia. Otherwise you're no way other then you're greek counterparts.

---

Gruesse vom Saenger

For questions about Boinc look in the BOINC-Wiki

I believe that you meant to say President Bush, and not Bush! As for the Albanians not having any history predating 1900, this is also another very sad thing that you have said. Endo, the Albanians are the descendants of the ancient Illyrians, Who have a history that goes back for thousands of years! It seems that you have finally shown your true character with your use of bad language.

> > FIRST OF ALL western Macedonia was never albanian again if you check
> your
> > facts you will see that half of the albanians are from kosovo ilegal
> > imigrants, secondly their birth rate has increased enormously in the last
> 60
> > or so years, this brings me to say they have no culture pre dating 1900
> all
> > the mosqes in the region are from the turk era on the balkans and having
> said
> > this Macedonians have a culture dateing back to the 3 rd century that is
> > churches so, how in the hell that is albanian land and where else in the
> world
> > minority in foreign country has a university, i didnt mentioned
> newspapers and
> > tv channels their own FC......
>
> As far as I disagree with Alex's bold rejection of your core position, I
> disagree on anything, that 'proves' some territorial claims in Europe based on
> any given historic date.
> European nations/folks/tribes have roamed the whole continent endlessly, so
> for everything can be made a 'substanciated' claim at some wellchosen date.
> Nobody has to be told: 'You are Turk, not Kurd' or 'You are Greek, not
> Macedonian', or 'You are German, not Sorb'.
> But that has to be independent from political borders. The people (and of
> course some governments) have to relax more about this.
> So there are Albanians in that area of the political entity thats called
> Macedonia, they arrived there for different reasons in the past, but they live
> there legally. And as you claim more rights for the macedonian minority in
> Greece (IMHO you're right here) you have to do the same with the albanian
> minority in Macedonia. Otherwise you're no way other then you're greek
> counterparts.
>
THATS WHAT IM TRYING TO say here Albanians have more rights then any ninority in the world basicaly they do what ever they please they were using the human rights (in couple of occasions they "the terrorists/mudjahedins" used albanians as a human shield between them and the police) as an excuse to create the greater albania dream ubefore the albanian hotheads such as arben djaferi and ali ahmeti apeared everyting was ok.

At the end of the day why should Macedonians in Mala Prespa suffer\live(this a region near Prespa lake todays albanian side in this area live around 150 000 nubers are only estimates as they are not allowed to express themselfes as macedonians in the census)to have no right to vote, to learn their own language in schools, for god sake they dont even have electricity or phone lines installed, now should we givem firearms to fight the albanian government or do it peacefuly like a civilized people thru democratic institutions (thanks to the greeks)?
Do not get me wrong here im not trying to piss you off

---

> I believe that you meant to say President Bush, and not Bush! As for the
> Albanians not having any history predating 1900, this is also another very sad
> thing that you have said. Endo, the Albanians are the descendants of the
> ancient Illyrians, Who have a history that goes back for thousands of years!
> It seems that you have finally shown your true character with your use of bad
> language.
>
i meant in today western Macedonia are that realy stuborn or you are trying to piss me off??????????????

i called the albanian terorists/mudjahedins dickheads. you are realy quick to judge/blame people. Dont tell me you call bin laden mr bin laden? that will realy insult your father

---

Well Endo, it now seems that you have a very limited amount of tolerance for other people. I'm not as you say, "trying to piss you off" at all, and I never used bad language with you either, as you have done with me. It's evident that you think that America is behind terrorism in your country, and that Albanians have no history in your country. I see there is little point in continueing these issues with a person that's as illogical as you seem to be.

Problem with Albanians/Kosovars is they have completely different social structure as the rest of population in the area. They live in tribal comunities, specially on rural areas ant the tribal leader or some council is runing the money, education, marriages, etc. They don't mix with other and want ethnic clean enviroment for themselves. They also use violence to achive that and are pushing the rest of population out. They have families with 10+ kids and they claim more and more land.
It's a little different in the cities but they also tend to have clean neighbourhoods (ghetos) for themselves.
And this is recipe for disaster as it happens on Kosovo and northern Makedonija.
Serbs and Makedonians just could not tolerate that.
But international community didn't see what was before (or didn't want to see) and just put the blame on Serbs and Macedonias. Of course they didn't understand the problem, specially USA (or didn't want to understand to follow just their interests) and now they are facing a big problem how to solve this mess.
Slovenia was also supporting Kosovars until they serve our goals agains Serbian hegemony in Yugoslavia but later when Slovenia became safe heaven for KLA and drog dealers, support from our government vanish.
There was no progress in Kosovo and northern Makedonija since international comunity intervened and they are running in circles.

Northern Makedonija is a bomb ticking as Kosovars understand their minority rights to breed like rabbits (ethnic clean of course) and claim more and more land. And Makedonian and other nations must accept that and even financially support that. Not in a million years I guess.

Makedonian government under foreign pressure to cancel money flow and support against Greece (who wants part of Makedonija (named FYROM because of Greeks) as their lost land) and Bulgaria (the same as Greece). But Makedonians and other minorities feels the pressure and if you are under to much of a pressure a lot can happen.

I had a chance to see and feel the "climate" first hand some 8-10 years ago when I was in Makedonija many times. And believe me you don't want to feel that.

Win-win situation is not possible. At the end one side will take the short straw. How would you explain that to them? Which side should that be? I think a lot of questions and very little answers. And the clock is ticking.


Tony

And since we are not going to solve this problem in this thread we should end it before started calling names.

There are or were a lot of similar problems world wide (middle east, north ireland, native americans,.. )to name some. Solving these depends on different interests.

Somebody is always on top of food chain (we can not all be Bill Gates or whoever you choose) and fighting on the ladder is the name of the game.

Tony

Macedonia has the right to protect it's terretorial integrity tony. But my issue was about the information provided by "historyofmacedonia.org" wesite as a hole, and not just this specific issue.

I was referring to the following:

The site says the Greeks are not related to the ancient Macedonians and uses "genetic research" to "prove" this claim. This so called genetic research also says that the Greeks are not even a European people, which is very racist.

I did not say the Albanians to rampage all over the region. The area that makes up western Macedonia was very close to where the ancient Illyrians (Albanians) used to live. Surely they must have some rights in this area.

Alex

The terms "old Europe" and "tribalism" come to mind.
There is only one race; the human race.

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Account frozen...